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  • #81
  • Apr 25, 2011 1:53pm Apr 25, 2011 1:53pm
DB with its 18.06% market share is the biggest fish in forex market so I was amaized they even considered dealing with retail traders. But then again so does Barclays Capital (11,08%) and Citi (7.69%), I just hope they don't close the door for us too.
  • #82
  • Apr 25, 2011 2:34pm Apr 25, 2011 2:34pm
Quoting chudon
I feel your pain JetTrader.....

The question is - who are we going to trade with now.

I'm in the middle, too. Too big for pure retail and too small for pure institutional. The ideal situation would be to get on a real trading platform and use a Prime Broker to avoid all the institutional account set-up headaches. Barclays want's $500k, but I once talked to someone at Barclays who says that $300k was doable - they've seemed to change their policy over the years. Even if Autobahn were within my reach ($20 million to start), I would not go near Deutsche Bank after their clear display of unprincipled business practices. I mean, really! Dumping people off on Forex.com? That's a slap in the face by any measure. db shot itself in the foot as far as I am concerned, forever. I'll never do business with them again, unless its in FX where they are providing liquidity to some pool that I happen to be trading through. Other than that, my new "business slogan" regarding them is quite simply: Deutsche Bank who? I'm sorry, I can't hear you - I thought you said Deutsche Bank? Never heard of them, sorry.

There are other options (not sure about deposit requirements):

HSBCnet FX
BNY Mellon iDeal Forex/iFX Express
Standard Charter Bank (using an off-shore account if you are U.S.)

Probably the best alternative going forward is FXall, for a host of very good reasons. http://altair.fxall.com/ In one trading platform, you get access to most of the major liquidity providers (including those listed above) without all the hassles associated with typical retail forex. If API's are your thing, then FXall is probably one of the better alternatives out there. And, you can use their PM services to trade through as well.
  • #83
  • Apr 25, 2011 3:06pm Apr 25, 2011 3:06pm
Quoting JetTrader
Barclays want's $500k, but I once talked to someone at Barclays who says that $300k was doable - they've seemed to change their policy over the years.
As retail trader you can trade with Barclays Stockbrokers ( http://www.stockbrokers.barclays.co.uk/ ). Minimum deposit is only £5,000 but minimum trade size is 50,000 of the base currency. Their spreads are on pair with CitiFX (at least on paper).
  • #84
  • Apr 25, 2011 3:47pm Apr 25, 2011 3:47pm
Quoting JetTrader
I'm in the middle, too. Too big for pure retail and too small for pure institutional. The ideal situation would be to get on a real trading platform and use a Prime Broker to avoid all the institutional account set-up headaches.
I was pretty much of this mindsest for a few years, chasing institutional platforms. I tried a few, but ended up going back to the retail ECNs (IB & MBT in my case). Unless you're doing really large volume (>10M a clip), I don't see the benefit.
  • #85
  • Apr 25, 2011 4:56pm Apr 25, 2011 4:56pm
Quoting JetTrader
Probably the best alternative going forward is FXall.
Thank you for pointing them out! I checked them a while back, but now after you pointed out I looked again, and it seems they finally have a FIX gateway, looks promising.

Currently I'm in talks with UBS, Authobahn FX, RBS, Divisa, ADM, MBT, CitiFX, and Cantor.

Ruled out LCG and PFGBEST (same feed as vCap Liquidus) due to high commissions and larger spreads for low volume accounts.

My problem with the typical "big guy" (now that dbFX are gone) is the minimum trade size of 1 lot. Trading with say, $250K, with 1% risk per trade and an SL of 100 pips (not too much with the volatility we're seeing) allows one to enter 2 lots on USD/XXX pairs, and only 1 lot on most others. And then you're stuck without being able to scale out.

Will you be moving now to FXall then?


Quoting Trader KGB
I was pretty much of this mindsest for a few years, chasing institutional platforms. I tried a few, but ended up going back to the retail ECNs (IB & MBT in my case). Unless you're doing really large volume (>10M a clip), I don't see the benefit.
I think I will end up reaching the same conclusion.
However you do gain something with institutional platforms: they are typically backed up by banks and you gain peace of mind that your funds are secured and not in the hands of some mafia.

dbFX had it all - a bank, small trade size, tight spreads, fix gateway.
  • #86
  • Apr 25, 2011 7:31pm Apr 25, 2011 7:31pm
Hi to All,

my name is Robert and I would like to add my comments/questions about dbfx.

I was also shocked reading that dbfx stops its business and was sold to Forex.com. No alternative for me. I withraw funds and requested close of my dbfx account.

My account is only about 25k EUR, but I was planning to deposit another 75k EUR and I am explicitely worried about safety of my funds, after I was a vicitim of Refco bancruptcy (received about 40 cents/dollar approx. 1.5 years later).

I later made some experience with CMS/VT-Trader (in the meantime also stopped their retail business) and Oanda (platform-shutdowns occur more often lately, makes me suspicious). I still have a live-acc at MB- trading, but I never deposited money. Actually don´t know why.

IMHO all brokers do fiddle around somehow with quotes and slippage. I think you still can make money, but I only try to "workaround" these practics by avoiding the first secondes/minutes while news and avoiding tightest scalping technics. For me "initiated platform freezes" or "no funds safety" is far more difficult to handle - practically or emotionally.

I am also searching for a dbfx alternative and the only ones that come into my head for smaller retail forex traders like me (25 - 100k EUR) are

- CitiFX pro / Saxo Bank
- Dukascopy

-> What are the pros/cons here and do you have other broker-
suggestions with fund protection ?

Because I still have my "sleeping" MB Trading account:

- Is there a major problem with MB Trading ?
- Are they reliable (platform and funds ?)

Thanks for all comments and your appreciated feedback
Regards
Robert from Germany
  • #87
  • Apr 25, 2011 8:27pm Apr 25, 2011 8:27pm
Quoting Tom81
As retail trader you can trade with Barclays Stockbrokers ( http://www.stockbrokers.barclays.co.uk/ ). Minimum deposit is only £5,000 but minimum trade size is 50,000 of the base currency. Their spreads are on pair with CitiFX (at least on paper).
http://www.stockbrokers.barclays.co.uk/?usecase=publicfxaccount&category=publicaccounts

The fine print at the bottom of this web page indicates that BARXdirect FX is not available in U.S. or Japan (especially). Apparently, Barclays Stockbrokers is a different entity than Baraclays Capital, under which you can have an account on the BARX platform, if you are a U.S. citizen. So, a distinction between BARX FX and BARXdirect FX, should probably be made. One offered by Barclays Stockbrokers and the other offered through Barclays Capital.

If you know otherwise, please inform.
  • #88
  • Apr 25, 2011 8:54pm Apr 25, 2011 8:54pm
Quoting freden

I guess the rep you were talking to was from FXCM, I have a little sympathy for that person. They must have worked out their butts to confront angry clients these couple of days, but they were dumped by DBFX too. Some of them could face layoff in the near future.
It is funny that you should mention this. I called dbFX to close my account today and reached an FXCM Trading Desk phone number. I asked the rep to explain how I could have dialed a dbFX toll-free number, while reaching an FXCM Trading Desk. The rep told me that they had no explanation.

So, I called back. This time, I did not tell the person answer the phone that I wanted to check on my dbFX account. I simply said that I wanted to talk to someone about my account status. Once again, I was transferred to an FXCM representative. The toll-free number given to me was given directly from the dbFX administration office the day I opened my account. I never used the number until TODAY.

How on earth could a dbFX toll-free number ring through to an FXCM desk? Nobody had any answer for that today - not from FXCM, or from dbFX. dbFX was supposed to be using FXCM "technology only," not their entire back-office.

All the while, here I am thinking that the number I had was a dbFX number. So, if my hard-line went down on my computer, and in a hurry I called that same toll-free number to close out a position by phone. I would have been doing it through an FXCM desk and NOT a dbFX desk. Which makes me realize that there was ONLY one desk all along - the FXCM Dealing Desk. There never was any physical dbFX - it was all virtual.

If you call McDonald's, can they transfer you direct to Burger King? If you call Oracle, can they transfer you direct to Sybase? If you call Boeing, can they transfer you direct to Airbus? If you call Lockheed Martin, can they in turn transfer your call direct to Northrop Grumman?

Call Hawaii, get Guam, direct?
Call Japan, get China, direct?
Call Australia, get Iceland, direct?
Call the Pentagon, get the U.S. Postal Service, direct?
Type HTML, get Cobol?
Type XSLT, get Fortran?
Type SOAP, get Pascal?
Type SQL, get Ruby?
Put Mustard on your hot dog; tastes like Ketchup?
Order Thai food; get served Mediterranean food?
Buy a Ferrari, drive home a Ford?

I'm sorry - none of this adds up, unless there was no dbFx to begin with.

The much bigger question is this: How much damage has Deutsche Bank done to its reputation? I for one, can never trust Deutsche Bank again with my money and that (I think) is the much bigger story behind all this, IMO.
  • #89
  • Apr 25, 2011 9:06pm Apr 25, 2011 9:06pm
there's no damage to Deutsche Bank reputation, mabe to you small retail traders, the big traders know what Deutsche Bank brings to the table something you retail traders will never see
  • #90
  • Apr 25, 2011 9:20pm Apr 25, 2011 9:20pm
Quoting Trader KGB
I was pretty much of this mindsest for a few years, chasing institutional platforms. I tried a few, but ended up going back to the retail ECNs (IB & MBT in my case). Unless you're doing really large volume (>10M a clip), I don't see the benefit.
- HotSpot
- A good Currenex source
- FXall seems to be the best alternative right now

The reason I liked dbFx was not the platform or the fact that they offered Retail. Rather, I used them because they were a "legit" Bank. Now, they've forever lost the "legit" status in my eyes - I'll never trust them again.

I've always said no to Saxo, mostly because of their corrupt past. After getting their Bank Charter, things seemed a bit different, but I still have a hard time trusting them. What I absolutely like about Saxo Bank, is the fact that they are now a "bank" - but also the fact that you can trade Vanilla FX Options on the same platform. That opens up a trading system design which can boost overall accuracy per trade and significantly help to reduce losses - if the options being priced on the platform are fair.

But, to escape the pits of Retail, without having to flip through legal hoops just to go institutional, FXall seems like one of the top choices, if you can fund it (Prime Broker).

What is a Prime Broker (some my want to know): http://vimeo.com/13503267
  • #91
  • Apr 25, 2011 9:25pm Apr 25, 2011 9:25pm
Quoting chudon
However you do gain something with institutional platforms: they are typically backed up by banks and you gain peace of mind that your funds are secured and not in the hands of some mafia.
But either way, your funds are with a prime. And if you think primes are any more secure than the best retail outfits, talk to the HFs that had their prime accounts locked out in the Lehman failure.

fwiw, IB accounts are insured up to $100M.
  • #92
  • Apr 25, 2011 9:54pm Apr 25, 2011 9:54pm
Quoting rocou

- CitiFX pro / Saxo Bank
- Dukascopy

Robert,

Dukascopy, bothers me from a technology standpoint. I've had all kinds of issues with their demo platform: trades not closing, trades executed that were never opened on my client and the platform randomly shutting down for no apparent reason. I've looked at them across a period of years and some of the same problems still exist.

CitiFX, while riding on top of the Saxo platform, is still backed by a Bank. So, too, was Deutsche Bank, so I'm not sure what that's worth anymore - merely to say that you are a "Bank" offering FX services. It used to hold a lot of weight in my mind, but not anymore.

However, I remember back when Citi first got involved. I asked them why they did not offer 100:1. They told me that they had good reason to believe that 100:1 would not be around for much longer - that was a few years ago and they were right about that prediction. Thus, they initiated with 50:1 and never had to worry about Frank/Dodd, from that perspective. Better forward vision than Deutsche Bank? Better management than Deutsche Bank? I'm not sure, but at least they are still in the business.

The bigger question about Banks in the FX business is, where are the Retail FX Platforms from guys like BofA, Wells Fargo and Chase. These are "national retail banks," so one would think that they would offer some National Retail FX Services (I'm just guessing). But, they have never even bothered to enter the space.

Citi, took up that challenge but never established their own back-office. How do we know? Because they offer MT4 in addition to Saxo, but their MT4 it is through a Boston Technologies API (the so-called Bridge). You don't need an operational "bridge" to what is supposed to be one of your primary Production Servers, if you own and operate your own back-office. Your customers should be able to connect directly to a transaction server that is maintained by your Bank, not a third-party. That model works in other industries and for other product/service types and categories, but (especially) in FX, you want to maintain control of your own servers and the data that streams form them to your clients. Of course, on the other hand, these Bank's were obviously looking for the cheapest way into the game and White Labels made that road plausible for them.

It is tough to find trustworthy retail FX sources - bank or no bank.
  • #93
  • Apr 25, 2011 10:14pm Apr 25, 2011 10:14pm
Quoting Trader KGB
But either way, your funds are with a prime. And if you think primes are any more secure than the best retail outfits, talk to the HFs that had their prime accounts locked out in the Lehman failure.

fwiw, IB accounts are insured up to $100M.

More or less not any more "secure," but the reason you go prime is to avoid the institutional set-up requirements. Anyone that trades at this level knows and understands the application process, credit requirements and legal red-tape involved in getting on a "real" institutional platform direct through a specific Bank. You will literally need an attorney, just to get on the platform - once you see the legal docs/contracts.

So, to avoid that, you get a PM that allows transactions through a stable platform. FXall is just one option - but it is one of the better that I've researched. The liquidity pool available on that platform is the deepest I've seen among the more public facing "institutional" (read: marketed) platforms.

But, if we are talking economic meltdown on the scale of something like 2008 all over again - nobodies funds are 100% safe, unless you are deemed "too big to fail." In that case, just stick your hand-out to Uncle Same and ask for TARP money.

If you can fund it - it is better to be Prime than not - just from a strict business stand-point alone. Just as long as you pick a good PM with some history, a track record and a balance sheet. Still, we are talking about leveraged FX, here. So, who is taking all the upfront risk? The PM. And, even more so, because they are Prime.

This is why trading through a Bank was so important, regardless of the number of lots you execute. Their public charter was supposed to provide a much higher level of funds protection than any FX Broker - Prime or not Prime. That's what makes this whole Deutsche thing so tragic. You've got people running around this forum, thinking that they are actually trading heavy lot sizes through a standard Retail Forex Broker AND that their funds are "secure" at the same time. Not quite.
  • #94
  • Apr 26, 2011 2:15am Apr 26, 2011 2:15am
Quoting Trader KGB
But either way, your funds are with a prime. And if you think primes are any more secure than the best retail outfits, talk to the HFs that had their prime accounts locked out in the Lehman failure.

fwiw, IB accounts are insured up to $100M.
I'm with IB for 4 years now - I feel good with them. However their API is a fiasco. You sometimes get a strong feeling it was implemented by a 10 years old as a home assignment in some school course.

Quoting rocou
- CitiFX pro / Saxo Bank
- Dukascopy
At the beginning of my FX journey I've been to Saxo here in Switzerland. I could not get past the feeling that the adviser is trying to sell me something I do not want to buy. Before the meeting she promised me all kind of API, and tried to sell CFDs really hard. Then at the meeting when I dug deeper I realized they are not quite there technologically. That, and the used-car-dealer atmosphere.

With Dukas I was actually half way into opening an account, but reading the forums here made me change my mind. Too much ambiguity. It is a fierce business, and I know competitors are trying to tame each other, but still you do not see much negative comments on the really good ones. Also Dukas's FIX API looks funny. Their documentation is far from professional.

The problem with retail is exactly going through these piles of mud trying to find a gold nugget..
  • #95
  • Apr 26, 2011 2:19am Apr 26, 2011 2:19am
@JetTrader,

thanks for you reply and insightful feedback about Dukascopy and CitiFX.

I am so sad, because I was hoping Dukascopy might be a solution.

CitiFX seems so be the only retail-alternative to the ex-white-label dbfx.
CitiFx as white label of Saxo Bank like dbfx used to be white label of FXCM.

It´s a big dilemma and I feel screwed. Can it be that this business is so messed up in the end ?

A couple of people write good things about MB Trading - Are there any further thoughts about them ?

I guess the last solution is to trade with limited funds and pray that nothing bad happens, like fraud by management at Refco.

Regards
Robert
  • #96
  • Apr 26, 2011 2:22am Apr 26, 2011 2:22am
@chudon

Thanks for your reply.

"but still you do not see much negative comments on the really good ones"
What seem to be the really "good ones" for retail FX-trading ?

Regards
Robert
  • #97
  • Apr 26, 2011 5:40am Apr 26, 2011 5:40am
How about ICAP? I'm not sure about the minimum account deposit.

FX
http://www.icap.com/markets/foreign-exchange.aspx

http://www.icap.com/about-the-group.aspx
"ICAP is the world’s premier voice and electronic interdealer broker and provider of post trade risk and information services. The Group is active in the wholesale markets in interest rates, credit, commodities, FX, emerging markets, equities and equity derivatives. "


cheers
  • #98
  • Apr 26, 2011 6:03am Apr 26, 2011 6:03am
@JetTrader,

I do believe that Barclays Capital provides liquidity pool for both retail and institutional investors. Probably the only difference is that if you're a retail trader you must use the middle man (Barclays Stockbrokers) and institutions can make business directly with Barclays Capital. There is probably also max leverage and lot size difference if you go retail or institutional.

"FX pricing direct from Barclays Capital and daily access to their exclusive institutional-level research, it’s hard to see why you would trade anywhere else. BARXdirect: FX brings you all the tools and information you need."

"Barclays Stockbrokers is the UK's number one retail stockbroker with over £10 billion assets currently under management. We are currently the dedicated stockbroking arm of the Barclays Bank Group. Barclays has been involved in banking and investment management for over 300 years and in over 60 countries."

"Barclays Capital is a leading global provider of ecommerce services for institutional investors, financial institutions and corporations. BARX is Barclays Capital's full suite of award-winning execution platforms ..."
  • #99
  • Apr 26, 2011 7:05am Apr 26, 2011 7:05am
http://vcapfx.com/ if you got 250k to start

http://www.aarontrade.com/ if you got 25k to start
  • #100
  • Apr 26, 2011 8:05am Apr 26, 2011 8:05am
Quoting zam4ever
Just receive e-mail from CITIFX:

"Unfortunately we are not able to accept any client from Malaysia as of now."
Bad news.
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