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Order Flow - Achieving the mindset

  • #1,281
  • Apr 7, 2011 12:57pm Apr 7, 2011 12:57pm
Quoting Jimmy Jones
I like the idea of working on your strengths, but I think it would be a mistake to ignore your weaknesses. Strengthening our weaknesses is where the greatest opportunity for personal improvement comes from. If I am a great three point shooter but I suck at dribbling, I can keep shooting a thousand threes for a month and get a little bit better at shooting threes, but I would still suck at dribbling, and my overall game would not improve much.

However, spending two weeks doing nothing but dribbling drills will make a marked improvement on my game,...
Yeah you can go nowhere if u just ignore your flaws. But my point was there is a level where u stop progressing on working on your weaks, cause u are who u who u are,... u cant change your nature altogether to make some pips. So thats where we should consider to change the rules the way we play the game so it could suit more to our existing nature (weaks and strengths) instead of keep banging our head on the wall.

It worked for me and it worked instantly in a few weeks what i was not able to do in years. But it does not mean i should think same could happen for everyone,.... so i can agree to other opinions too in this subject too.

I hate generalizing.
.
  • #1,282
  • Apr 7, 2011 2:52pm Apr 7, 2011 2:52pm
Quoting Monroe
How did you know it was there? At least, now you saw the offers and it's confirmed. It was late in the day on friday, timing is important. Now you got options and tech stops... had a double top on m15 and now looks to be forming a head a shoulders.

You'll get the pullback, take out some trend trader stops and persuade some more shorts, I'll watch this one early next week. I'll wait till the market get's caught short.... easy kill. Be a hunter....
Monroe, I wanted to go back to this post.

Over the past couple weeks, I have been watching what happens as barriers get taken out and re-reading Darkstar's example in the "Stating the Obvious..." thread. A ton of things started coming together for me and then I remembered this post that you made. Re-reading this post (specifically the bold parts) and putting it together with everything else has been a major light bulb moment!

It's amazing how you can read something over and over again, but it just doesn't hit you until the 20th time you read it. With that in mind, I should probably take another lap through all of Darkstar's posts again (who knows what will finally sink in this time).

Anyway, I wanted to thank you for that post. It was very helpful in my process of putting a few things together.
  • #1,283
  • Apr 7, 2011 3:28pm Apr 7, 2011 3:28pm
Quoting Jimmy Jones
I like the idea of working on your strengths, but I think it would be a mistake to ignore your weaknesses.
my post
http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost...postcount=1362
Jimmy is there a way to contact you,don't want to cluster this OF thread. I have the same problem,I would appreciate some guidance on how you overcame it.

@ SupremeChaos: Working on it... :nerd:
  • #1,284
  • Apr 7, 2011 4:14pm Apr 7, 2011 4:14pm
Hey Tilt, I don't think I can be of much help. Getting to know myself (and facing things I had been avoiding for so long) only came after I could no longer stand the emotional pain and turmoil trading was causing me. Laying on the bed in a ball sobbing uncontrollably after a string of more losses in July 2009, with my 4 year old daughter sitting next to me patting my head telling me it would be alright, was the thing that finally broke me and made me want to face who I really was as a person. I had already tried to structure a set of trading rules to handicap my weaknesses, but that didn't work for me!

After I admitted to myself that I had low self esteem, lack of patience, anger problems, lack of discipline, ect, then I was able to start working through those things. Some things that helped were Fijitrader posts in the J16 private thread (awesome stuff on psychology), reading 'The Art of the Trade' by Jankovsky helped a lot, of course the many times through FTI's thread looking for the nuggets about mastering ones self, and just a lot of time sitting in Starbucks in Japan writing about my feelings and tendencies and why I might be feeling a certain way or acting a certain way (laugh if you want, but I'm glad I did it and continue to do it).

There is no quick fix I don't think, especially if you are an American. Americans are selfish, impatient, arrogant by nature (it's the culture we grew up in, especially if your younger). We think everyone owes us something for nothing (if not consciously, on a subconscious level for sure). Our worth is dictated by what we do or what we possess. That is a terrible set of baggage to take into the markets!

So I can't help you out there, it's a journey you need to take yourself. If your not willing and patient enough for the long (and uncomfortable) journey, then I would say your not as bad off as you think, or you have not gone through enough pain yet to make you want to exert the effort to change. Now, I don't have it all figured out, there is a lot of areas I still need to grow and get better at, and I will continue to do that for the rest of my life. But I just don't feel qualified to offer 1 on 1 help.

We could start another thread to discuss, and the only reason I posted about this in the first place is Carnagie's topic was about order flow mindset (not just OF), and his last few posts made me think his mindset lately was similar to mine back then.

Everyone else can save time writing why they think I am off my rocker! I won't pay attention to you anyway

Quoting Tilt
Jimmy is there a way to contact you,don't want to cluster this OF thread. I have the same problem,I would appreciate some guidance on how you overcame it.

@ SupremeChaos: Working on it... :nerd:
  • #1,285
  • Apr 7, 2011 4:54pm Apr 7, 2011 4:54pm
Quoting Jimmy Jones
Hey Tilt, I don't think I can be of much help. Getting to know myself (and facing things I had been avoiding for so long) only came after I could no longer stand the emotional pain and turmoil trading was causing me. Laying on the bed in a ball sobbing uncontrollably after a string of more losses in July 2009, with my 4 year old daughter sitting next to me patting my head telling me it would be alright, was the thing that finally broke me and made me want to face who I really was as a person. I had already tried to structure a set of trading rules...
very very nice post jimmy, thanks.

Learning to trade is very humbling, even hotshot doctors, professors, lawyers and accountants get kicked in the ass by trading. In the end it just boils down to tenacity I think, never let it beat you.
  • #1,286
  • Apr 7, 2011 5:16pm Apr 7, 2011 5:16pm
Hey jimmy and others.. all of you had some really nice posts which I will reply to as said. and none of them is/has been forgotten in between other posts, they all are very valuable to me.

However, I tried to read thru the averaging in/down approach from twoblink and I kinda dislike the approach so I'll put it up here and for you guys to tear it apart and question the hell out of me so I learn.

In twoblinks example, he discusses tudor jones "losers average losers" and takes the Enron example where some fund manager averaged down the whole way to zero and lost all money; but that is another case.
In my mind, if you trade with a firm stop that says "hey you fucked up at 10 pips" then you can go ahead and average in (make a position) with good money management. The reason I am saying this is that I dont want to build my entries on catching tops and bottoms. I want to build my position so if it moves down in a area then I have built a position and if it moves away from that area; then I misinterpreted the bounce there and I should get out.. see how I mean?

To make an example
Let's say a stock trades for $50, moves down to $40 which I think many will buy because nothing changed yet still someone is selling. (but we dont know this yet)
Let's say there is support at $46, $43 and $41.. So I buy at all these support areas and have my stop at $40.
Now the interesting thing is the MM. Let's say I trade with 3% of my account; so at 46 I buy 0,2%. At 43 I buy with 0,6% and at 41 I buy with 1,2%. All of these equal 3% of my account.
The way I see it is that I cant fuck up because I have a stop and predetermined % stop. Second is that if it hits my first order and moves up then great Im in the black immediately. If not then it hits the second and the average position is still lower. If not then third and still averiage position lower. If it hits the stop then obviously it was a bad trade. So what is wrong with bulding a postition (not trying to catch a bottom) like this? Why does "losers average losers"?
I can't see the problem with this being so fucked up if you really put an area where you ARE WRONG, but build a position until the market proves you wrong (or right).

Tear this apart now.

Thank you and take care
  • #1,287
  • Apr 7, 2011 7:43pm Apr 7, 2011 7:43pm
Quoting Carnegie
Hey jimmy and others.. all of you had some really nice posts which I will reply to as said. and none of them is/has been forgotten in between other posts, they all are very valuable to me.

However, I tried to read thru the averaging in/down approach from twoblink and I kinda dislike the approach so I'll put it up here and for you guys to tear it apart and question the hell out of me so I learn.

In twoblinks example, he discusses tudor jones "losers average losers" and takes the Enron example where some fund manager averaged down the whole...
Let's say you get hit on your first limit order at 46 and the price goes up and you win the trade. Congratulations! You made 10% of what you could have made should you go in with the full amount. Now I'm not saying averaging in doesn't work, go for it if you feel so. Try with two equal parts.
  • #1,288
  • Apr 8, 2011 12:52am Apr 8, 2011 12:52am
Quoting Jimmy Jones
Hey Tilt, I don't think I can be of much help. Getting to know myself (and facing things I had been avoiding for so long) only came after I could no longer stand the emotional pain and turmoil trading was causing me. Laying on the bed in a ball sobbing uncontrollably after a string of more losses in July 2009, with my 4 year old daughter sitting next to me patting my head telling me it would be alright, was the thing that finally broke me and made me want to face who I really was as a person. I had already tried to structure a set of trading rules...
Jimmy you helped alot. Just hearing an experiance like that and the way you overcome it is very valuable.
Thank you.

Best regards
  • #1,289
  • Apr 8, 2011 1:33am Apr 8, 2011 1:33am
Quoting relyt
Monroe, I wanted to go back to this post.

Over the past couple weeks, I have been watching what happens as barriers get taken out and re-reading Darkstar's example in the "Stating the Obvious..." thread. A ton of things started coming together for me and then I remembered this post that you made. Re-reading this post (specifically the bold parts) and putting it together with everything else has been a major light bulb moment!
Monroe knows what he's talking about. His posts get lost in here but it's well worth your while to read everything he's mentioned.

You can know where the stops are, where the options are, and where all the barriers are. But you also have to have your own set of rules on how to trade them. You need to define your setups beforehand. It can be based off PA -- or whatever suits you -- but you can't go blindly trading them just off info from XYZ websites. This is a two-step process that DS has mentioned before.
  • #1,290
  • Apr 8, 2011 4:00am Apr 8, 2011 4:00am
yep Monroe's def in my top 3 list of this thread... gee I wonder who the other 2 are!
Time hides Nothing
  • #1,291
  • Apr 8, 2011 4:03am Apr 8, 2011 4:03am
Quoting Carnegie
There are allot of replies I want look at and think deeply about and reply, will do that later!



This was exactly what I was thinking about, but I think you guys kinda misunderstand me.. What I was saying is that my psychology is so fucked, I'm finding reasons for the trade to blow up instead of trying to be calm and rational.

As you guys said a 5 pip move is more or less a sneeze in the market. But then why is it happening?
Why is the market moving against me when there is no reason to (no news no bullshit - nothing).

Take this...
Market dont know shit about your positions and dont give a shit about it.

I stared a lot at E/U M1 because to me its the thing that makes most sense, but i can tell you for a fact i dont know SHIT about who exactly moves it or why, and i dont care. I go with pattern recognition to enter and close. If you want to know what makes it move 5 pips, you will look for an eternity and never find anything, meanwhile not making even a pip in profit.

Heres what i think, if you got 5 in profit, close it. If you can do that kinda thing couple of times, kinda little bit more wins then losses you are one of the best traders IN THE WORLD. Any bank, fund or whatever should be glad to have you for 1-10 million USD/year, if they knew shit about whats good for them.

But maybe you want to do stuff a bit longer term like Nasir here. Then i REALLY dont know shit. You need to stare at those candles for a long time anywhich way you go, that i know.

I think the feeling you want in the back of your head is "Yeap ive seen this before." and not "Why is it doing that, its totally weird?".
My signature is: "Classified".
  • #1,292
  • Apr 8, 2011 7:57am Apr 8, 2011 7:57am
Quoting Magic Trader
Monroe knows what he's talking about. His posts get lost in here but it's well worth your while to read everything he's mentioned.

You can know where the stops are, where the options are, and where all the barriers are. But you also have to have your own set of rules on how to trade them. You need to define your setups beforehand. It can be based off PA -- or whatever suits you -- but you can't go blindly trading them just off info from XYZ websites. This is a two-step process that DS has mentioned before.
Great addition, Magic.

I'm watching the 1.4430 level as IFR is reporting barriers there with a large payout (and price keeps getting defended at the 1.4420 level). Given what I've learned recently, if it isn't broken before London closes, I doubt the afternoon session in NY will have the strength to push through.

With the size of payout, it will probably be defended strongly. I'll be looking for signs of the hunters breaking through today, but if they don't by London's close, then maybe the hunt will renew at the beginning of next week.

Either way, I don't think I'll actually put on a trade here. I'll just treat this one as a learning experience and watch the battle.
  • #1,293
  • Apr 8, 2011 8:03am Apr 8, 2011 8:03am
Quoting relyt
Great addition, Magic.

I'm watching the 1.4430 level as IFR is reporting barriers there with a large payout (and price keeps getting defended at the 1.4420 level). Given what I've learned recently, if it isn't broken before London closes, I doubt the afternoon session in NY will have the strength to push through.

With the size of payout, it will probably be defended strongly. I'll be looking for signs of the hunters breaking through today, but if they don't by London's close, then maybe the hunt will renew at the beginning of next week.

Either...

Haha, and it got broken only a few minutes after I posted that.
  • #1,294
  • Apr 8, 2011 2:13pm Apr 8, 2011 2:13pm
Quoting relyt
Haha, and it got broken only a few minutes after I posted that.
It was a 10 mil payout. Transaction April 6, Expire April 13.
The next barrier- 1.4450
  • #1,295
  • Apr 8, 2011 3:02pm Apr 8, 2011 3:02pm
Quoting Louie
The next barrier- 1.4450

And, boom goes the dynamite
  • #1,296
  • Apr 8, 2011 3:24pm Apr 8, 2011 3:24pm
Quoting relyt
And, boom goes the dynamite
lol. this damn market. I didn't expect such a late mover.
  • #1,297
  • Apr 8, 2011 3:35pm Apr 8, 2011 3:35pm
Quoting hilmy83
lol. this damn market. I didn't expect such a late mover.
Pretty crazy. Don't look like there is much faith in the dollar. Hell our own government can't seem to agree on anything looks like there shutting down. Damb basterds can F*** up a wet dream.
  • #1,298
  • Apr 8, 2011 3:46pm Apr 8, 2011 3:46pm
USA goes to weekend governmentless.The dollar is being dumped across the board. Anarchy in the US!

Inserted Video
  • #1,299
  • Apr 8, 2011 5:15pm Apr 8, 2011 5:15pm
Quoting hilmy83
lol. this damn market. I didn't expect such a late mover.
I almost closed my long trades myself and probably would have if I didnt have them from 1.34 and 1.36, just shows how its truly a mental game

closed them just now though so its probably going to skyrocket
  • #1,300
  • Apr 9, 2011 2:03am Apr 9, 2011 2:03am
Quoting Benevolent
There's an emerald or two in here if you really contemplate the possible outcome of this statement Carnegie
Very true, but easier said than done for those who don't know what to look for.

One has to go deep into the warren till one finds the way out.
The road to pipland is arduous and fraught with challenge.
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