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Seeking advice from Traders/Programmers

  • #21
  • Feb 18, 2011 3:41am Feb 18, 2011 3:41am
I think learning out of courses and books alone will not actually make one a good trader or programmer, what more profitable one, nevertheless is a good start. Least it's better than people out there who choose to waste their precious lives and time, instead of knowledge for themselves to keep.

I majored in applied mathematics & statistics, did a full module package in financial math & o-o programming in Java/C++, but all i can say, when it comes to making trade softwares for live trading, you definitely need more than just basic coding. The codes has to "react" correctly.

Take for eg. a simple case of using moving averages to determine market inflexion points. At what point during the inflexion does, say the
if(MA>price && MA<price) statement fits? I suggest another starting point - take a look at all MQL codes, the MA expert advisor provided freely in the meta editor. Does the logic work? If so, why and if not, what are the reasons. Until you have some answers of your own, then it will take some trial and error, I suppose.
  • #22
  • Feb 18, 2011 7:30am Feb 18, 2011 7:30am
Quoting OldQuant
in csv (there, again, an industry standard Excel format: CommaSpaceValue format).
Maybe I sound like a bean counter now but I can't let the above stand uncorrected because it outright hilarious: It is true that CSV is the industry standard but it is NOT true that this is an Excel format or in any other way connected to or invented by Micosoft. Excel just happens to have some functionality built in to import this format.

CSV is not a pro-Excel argument, actually it is the exact opposite: Receiving the data in CSV usually means you are lucky and can completely avoid Excel or any other MS product, the reason why data is provided in CSV is because this format is NOT a vendor specific format, its an open format!

CSV was the "industry" standard for any kind of tabular data already long before Bill Gates even had the idea to enter the software business.

BTW it is "Comma Separated Values" not "Comma Space Value". Its basically a plain text file for any sort of tabular data where you have one line of text for every row and the columns are separated by a comma "," which is such a simple format that it probably has no inventor at all, it just presents itself after 30 seconds thinking. I'm not sure whether one could even call it "format" at all because it is just the naked data stripped of everything and written down in plain text.

I don't want to derail this thread, please don't answer to this posting. I only wanted to neutralize a hidden Microsoft Commercial that was based on an utterly untrue statement.
  • #23
  • Feb 18, 2011 9:32am Feb 18, 2011 9:32am
Quoting CindyXXXX
Funny thing is I will prob get a good grade in it like 85% or something but I still don't really know wtf they're on about half the time lol. I just know how to get the right answers. Its like knowing how to fix a computer error without actually knowing how the computer works.
Welcome to the education system! haha

Quoting CindyXXXX
Is R the open Source one?
Yep, open source/totally free. Personally I got into Matlab though, I liked it better. It felt more intuitive especially for making GUI's, with a better debugger and better documentation (at least to me). But I would definitely recommend R as well even if Matlab were free (which it's not).

Quoting CindyXXXX
Can you learn that yourself?
Absolutely.

Quoting CindyXXXX
How the hell did you learn your skill. Did you all do courses through UNI or similar?
You don't really need formal classes to learn a foreign language. Same thing goes here.

Tutorials are good for learning about the basics of your chosen language. But I found that the BEST teacher is ultimately practice. Start with trying to write code that does very simple stuff (but interests you, try to keep it trading-related), like just displaying a simple message box with some text. Then you'll keep wanting to do more complex stuff. You'll get stuck every now and then and find yourself forced to search in the documentation and googling. It's a problem-solving process during which you learn how code works and you memorize the syntax etc.

It's actually more fun than I thought it would be. You feel proud of yourself when you write something that actually works and you start fantasizing about writing a full-blown trading platform and stuff.

Quoting CindyXXXX
What sorts of things can you do with it?

Can you for example create your own applications like MT4?
Absolutely. Nothing compares to having your own custom-made platform with only what you want to be looking at.

Quoting CindyXXXX
I actually need to, or want is maybe a better word.. Create my own charting platform/ charts unless I want to draw things by hand lol. Is this really advanced stuff?
Not really, especially if you compare it to the advanced engineering/scientific analysis Matlab/R can do, charting market data is simple stuff.

All you need is a data feed, which you can get through an API connection. It allows you to request price data (historical and realtime) from your bröker, do whatever the hell you want with that data, and submit orders.
  • #24
  • Feb 18, 2011 9:48am Feb 18, 2011 9:48am
Quoting OldQuant
Excel and the basics of VBA: must.

Scripting language: Python, probably best.

Object oriented: Java, until there is a reason not to.

Stat/quant support/app platform: R, enhanced by the GUI's available for it.
That's a great selection right there!

I personally don't have the time/need to learn all of them though (although I'd love to). Unless you want a career in programming (which CindyXXXX made it clear he doesn't), I don't see the need for learning a scripting language, AND an object oriented language, AND a stat/quant language.

As a trader, just the latter is enough, I believe.

Then Excel/VBA would be a nice (optional) addition, just for stuff like analyzing and keeping records of your results, or some work/business-related stuff, etc.
  • #25
  • Feb 18, 2011 9:49am Feb 18, 2011 9:49am
Quoting Marv
But I found that the BEST teacher is ultimately practice. Start with trying to write code that does very simple stuff (but interests you, try to keep it trading-related), like just displaying a simple message box with some text. Then you'll keep wanting to do more complex stuff. You'll get stuck every now and then and find yourself forced to search in the documentation and googling. It's a problem-solving process during which you learn how code works and you memorize the syntax etc.

It's actually more fun than I thought it would be. You feel proud...
Reminds me very much of the exact process I went through with learning excel (obviuosly more basic but still!) I ow have this extensive trade sheet that I've built over the years that started with just recording my trades but now does all sought of calculations for risk management as well as tracking heaps of statistics and of course the equity curve. Its my baby lol

Inspiring thanks... I think that's exactly what I'll do just start small with things that interest me and branch out slowly

Thanks
Time hides Nothing
  • #26
  • Feb 18, 2011 3:02pm Feb 18, 2011 3:02pm
i still say start with Excel and VBA. you will find them most useful on your resume. you said in the beginning you are not going for quant development. so you dont need scripting and programming languages for the time being. when you feel comfortable and ready to move beyond Excel/VBA, go for the next level.

btw, Excel can plot candlesticks. you can use VBA to plot your indicators along with the candlesticks.

just remembered. since you are still going to take courses, start with Java and Database Concepts.
  • #27
  • Feb 19, 2011 10:15pm Feb 19, 2011 10:15pm
Quoting rocket4x
btw, Excel can plot candlesticks. you can use VBA to plot your indicators along with the candlesticks.
Like I said, Excel/VBA is nice to know, but it's not the right tool for this job. Try storing two months of tick data in a spreadsheet, try manipulating/plotting it, and watch excel freeze; then you'll understand what I'm saying.
  • #28
  • Feb 20, 2011 4:54am Feb 20, 2011 4:54am
All computer knowledge, for that matter any fields of knowledge, is certainly good to know or be good at.

However bear in mind if one is chasing time, bills and doughnuts, and chances are most people do just to make their lives for the better than worse, try and get defined path, happiness goals, crystal clear in the mind, is perhaps a wise thing to do, even before starting anything.

My final two, make it three cents....before I go. Got MQL codes screaming at me and I have to fix them before tomorrow trials...

Why am I doing this? "Because I can't sing or dance."
[Asked why does he want to fight]" Because I can't sing or dance." - Rocky Balboa
  • #29
  • Last Post: Feb 20, 2011 4:52pm Feb 20, 2011 4:52pm
Quoting Marv
Like I said, Excel/VBA is nice to know, but it's not the right tool for this job. Try storing two months of tick data in a spreadsheet, try manipulating/plotting it, and watch excel freeze; then you'll understand what I'm saying.
i agree. Excel is not good for quant development. but that is not what Cindy is seeking.
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