Seeking advice from Traders/Programmers | Forex Factory

Options

Go to
Permalinks
Print Thread

Similar Threads

Seeking Advice for Awesome Oscillator Settings 2 replies

Seeking Advice on Generating Trade Data 0 replies

An advice from the programmers 8 replies

Have a good entry seeking idea... need programmers 3 replies

programmers help/advice with modding indicator needed please :) 0 replies

Seeking advice from Traders/Programmers

  • #1
  • First Post: Feb 11, 2011 6:04pm Feb 11, 2011 6:04pm
Hi

Just seeking any input from the trader/programmers out there

I'm doing a business course at UNI but I have to choose 5 electives one of which I'm going to do International Trade and Banking

I thought it would be a good thing to learn some programming skills that might benefit my trading but I can't do them all and if its a waste of time to just do a few then I won't bother.

Anyway here's the list of options - Do you think it would be beneficial to choose any 4 of the following and if so which ones? And if I could push my luck a bit more, why?

Here's the list of options:

Introduction to Information Technology

Introduction to Programming

Programming 1

Database Concepts

Introduction to Computer Systems (Previously Computer Organisation)

Programming in C

Programming 2 (Java)

Scripting Language Programming

Software Engineering Fundamentals

Data Communication and Net-Centric Computing

Web Programming

Professional Computing Practice

Object-Oriented Programming in C++

Web Development Technologies

Document Markup Languages

Thanks
Time hides Nothing
  • #2
  • Feb 11, 2011 6:17pm Feb 11, 2011 6:17pm
BTW I have no previous MQ4 or whatever other programming understanding at all. I'm basically just looking for handy skills that may help running back tests or programming basic indicators or scripts. So no looking to make a career out of it if you know what I mean.
Time hides Nothing
  • #3
  • Feb 11, 2011 7:33pm Feb 11, 2011 7:33pm
Basic programming skills can be used for a lot more than trading currencies. For instance setting up a website or doing sophisticated data analysis in Excel. So don't limit yourself. Introduction to Programming is a good start. Programming in C is a good first language, but it is out of date. MQL4 is based on the C language, but MQL5 is object oriented and like C++. But C++ is difficult to learn as a first language. Visual Basic is good as an easy language to learn and has object orientation.
  • #4
  • Feb 12, 2011 9:25pm Feb 12, 2011 9:25pm
Quoting CodeMeister
Basic programming skills can be used for a lot more than trading currencies. For instance setting up a website or doing sophisticated data analysis in Excel. So don't limit yourself. Introduction to Programming is a good start. Programming in C is a good first language, but it is out of date. MQL4 is based on the C language, but MQL5 is object oriented and like C++. But C++ is difficult to learn as a first language. Visual Basic is good as an easy language to learn and has object orientation.
Thanks for the advice Codemeister, good stuff
Time hides Nothing
  • #5
  • Feb 13, 2011 2:14pm Feb 13, 2011 2:14pm
for most casual programming you will use scripting languages.

I would start with Python, it will teach you all the most important concepts that are relevant in many areas, as a beginner you will instantly see success and fast progress in your learning which is good for your motivation and generally using this language will be a very positive and rewarding experience and much fun.
  • #6
  • Feb 14, 2011 8:18pm Feb 14, 2011 8:18pm
C/C++/Java are all advanced programming languages. that's not what you want unless you become a professional quant developer.

if you insist on learning an advanced language, Java is much better and more modern than C/C++ for a beginner.

that being said, i recommend you learn VBA for automating excel calculations. it is an easy language and takes advantage of Excel's features (graphs, statistics, tables, etc). Excel is also a popular application in business sector (not quant development).

if you want to take a second course, i recommend database. the SQL language is easy and the database concepts are stimulating and interesting to learn.
  • #7
  • Feb 14, 2011 8:26pm Feb 14, 2011 8:26pm
Quoting 7bit
for most casual programming you will use scripting languages.

I would start with Python, it will teach you all the most important concepts that are relevant in many areas, as a beginner you will instantly see success and fast progress in your learning which is good for your motivation and generally using this language will be a very positive and rewarding experience and much fun.
Thanks 7Bit... Python? Is that anything to do with the courses listed above? (different name maybe?)

EDIT: I see "Python" is a major part of the "Scripting Language Programming" course as well as "Perl"
Cheers
Time hides Nothing
  • #8
  • Edited 8:37pm Feb 14, 2011 8:27pm | Edited 8:37pm
Quoting rocket4x
C/C++/Java are all advanced programming languages. that's not what you want unless you become a professional quant developer.

if you insist on learning an advanced language, Java is much better and more modern than C/C++ for a beginner.

that being said, i recommend you learn VBA for automating excel calculations. it is an easy language and takes advantage of Excel's features (graphs, statistics, tables, etc). Excel is also a popular application in business sector (not quant development).

if you want to take a second course, i recommend database....
VBA would be awesome to learn... Is that anything to do with the courses listed above, I've been through the units in those courses and can't see any mention VB or VBA

They are my only options unfortunately...

TY Rocket
Time hides Nothing
  • #9
  • Feb 14, 2011 8:51pm Feb 14, 2011 8:51pm
Hi Cindy,

VBA is a very easy language and can be learned alone by following many online tutorials (websites, youtube, etc)

if you insist on taking a class, then i recommend

Programming 1

This course is Java based, which is a wonderful and modern language.

The courses shown after seem to be advanced for a beginner because they focus on computer science, rather than language semantics and basic programming.

The Database Concepts is another nice course to take after you are done with Programming 1. In order to create indicators, you need two things:

1) Programing language with access to statistical and graphing tools

2) A database to store and retrieve data for analysis

I recommended VBA because it integrates very well with Excel spreadsheets which act as a database. You can also take advantage of many graphing and statistical functions found in Excel. Keep in mind that mt4 easily exports data to excel.

Java is a hardcore language and there are statistical and graphing tools available for the language. This is true for other languages as well such as Python, C/C++, etc. The difference is in the easiness of accessing these tools within the language.

The database is not really required because you can store the data in an array while the program is running. However, for large and complex datasets, it is much better to use a database. It is beneficial to learn database concepts even if you don't use a database, because the concepts will help you better organize your data for whatever language you use.



Quoting CindyXXXX
VBA would be awesome to learn... Is that anything to do with the courses listed above, I've been through the units in those courses and can't see any mention VB or VBA

They are my only options unfortunately...

TY Rocket
  • #10
  • Feb 14, 2011 9:03pm Feb 14, 2011 9:03pm
From the classes you've listed my suggestions are as follows:

Programming 1, Programming 2, Scripting Language Programming, and Web Programming

I choose these because you'll develop a thorough understanding of logic syntax, get familiar with object oriented programming and two of the more useful scopes you're likely to run into.

Learning programming is a lot like learning a latin-based language: once you've learned one, learning another is just a matter of looking up some syntax details because the logic structure is basically the same.

For most analysis-type-number-crunching work that you're likely to be doing, e.g. Excel w/ VBA, all you really need to understand is the logic syntax. But taking the time to understand object oriented programming and event handling really helps when you want to start doing stuff with crunched numbers once you've got them. Put another way, the computer already knows how to do things, object oriented programming is how you ask it to do stuff.

I'm trained as an engineer, but I took 3 semesters of programing. That information has been so invaluable to making the computer as a effective tool, I can't imagine working without it.

Good luck!
  • #11
  • Feb 14, 2011 9:21pm Feb 14, 2011 9:21pm
Really appreciate the feedback thanks everyone. Its a long way away until I have to make a decision so maybe until then I will study some VBA in my spare time and then decide on the specific courses.

If you think about the world we live in these days programming should really be taught in schools early on just like maths and English is.

But anyway thanks again I'd be lost without your feedback

If anyone has anything to add I'm all ears cheers
Time hides Nothing
  • #12
  • Feb 15, 2011 4:20am Feb 15, 2011 4:20am
Hi,

I would guess that if you want to improve your chances of getting a job as a trader in a bank it would be VBA and SQL and some scripting (Since that is usually what is used) and for the reporting issues maybe ISDA's FpML (because it seem interesting) but if it is for your personal trading MQL (because it is easy to learn and fun to use when back testing all the crap strategies and allways a good laugh when the curve goes straight to zero - in the test

Good luck
  • #13
  • Feb 15, 2011 12:24pm Feb 15, 2011 12:24pm
A fellow business student eh? You know I've been thinking about doing International Trade and Banking too later on. Either that or International Business.

Quoting CindyXXXX
I thought it would be a good thing to learn some programming skills that might benefit my trading
A word to the wise: Learn a statistical/scientific programming language (Matlab or R). As a trader/quant sorta guy, you can't go wrong with that. Not sure it's on that list though.

Best of luck on your journey.
  • #14
  • Feb 15, 2011 6:15pm Feb 15, 2011 6:15pm
Quoting Marv
R
Yes. This is definitely a good idea. R is a bit different from all the other mentioned languages in many ways and it is not easy to learn but as a quant trader you should at least know about its existence and what R can do for you.

The same is also true for Matlab but Matlab costs a lot of money while R is completely open source.

BTW: Most of the serious number crunching and statistics stuff is not done with Excel/VBA simply because most of the more specialized things are just not possible or incredibly complicated to do in Excel. Excel/VBA is very nice for automating some boring office work but its not very useful for statistics and quant trading, there exist far better tools and languages specifically designed for these types of problems (Matlab, R, Knime, Rapidminer, Orange, Weka, etc. and the aforementioned scripting languages and maybe also some Java to glue it all together and maybe even some C++ or Fortran to crunch a bunch of vectors or matrices directly on the bare metal of your CPU/FPU/GPU).
  • #15
  • Feb 15, 2011 8:31pm Feb 15, 2011 8:31pm
I second everything 7bit said here. I wasted a lot of time trying to get VBA to do things it's not really meant to handle/geared towards, hence my advice.
  • #16
  • Feb 17, 2011 10:25pm Feb 17, 2011 10:25pm
Quoting Marv
A fellow business student eh? You know I've been thinking about doing International Trade and Banking too later on. Either that or International Business.



A word to the wise: Learn a statistical/scientific programming language (Matlab or R). As a trader/quant sorta guy, you can't go wrong with that. Not sure it's on that list though.

Best of luck on your journey.

Hey Marv - Thanks for your input - Is R the open Source one? Can you learn that yourself?

yeah second year in my degree now, its starting to get interesting. Doing Business maths and statistics right now which is interesting, I wish I had more time to understand it better. Funny thing is I will prob get a good grade in it like 85% or something but I still don't really know wtf they're on about half the time lol. I just know how to get the right answers. Its like knowing how to fix a computer error without actually knowing how the computer works.
Time hides Nothing
  • #17
  • Feb 17, 2011 10:26pm Feb 17, 2011 10:26pm
So all you guys that can program... How the hell did you learn your skill. Did you all do courses through UNI or similar?

What sorts of things can you do with it?

Can you for example create your own applications like MT4?

I actually need to, or want is maybe a better word.. Create my own charting platform/ charts unless I want to draw things by hand lol. Is this really advanced stuff?

Where do charting platforms like MT4 get their data from? and do we have access to the same data?

Its such a crazy world I would love to be a programmer but not sure if I have the patience/time/brains to really learn it.

Thanks
Time hides Nothing
  • #18
  • Feb 17, 2011 11:24pm Feb 17, 2011 11:24pm
My thoughts, tempered by a career working for banks and investment banks in trading and risk management.

Financial services runs on Microsoft products. Academic computing and IT runs on various species of unix. Users of the latter have a visceral hatred of the former; just look at any of the open source projects at Source Forge or elsewhere and you see it. But unless you plan a career in academics, learn about unix if you must, but stay with MSFT.

There have been a number of mentions of VB[A], but you'll be hard pressed to find any course work using or teaching it: officially, it is a Dead Language; MSFT killed it off in favor of the .NET version, but, paradoxically, the automation of Excel is still VBA, for the most part. And Excel is still the workhorse of the financial front office: Bloomberg, Reuters, most large brokers, and signal providers use Excel based "DDE" (dynamic data interchange) applications to move their information to the user and clients.

A huge amount of quant work is done with, and in, scripting languages: Python, and Tcl (said, 'tickle'). The int. rate derivatives desk of one of the US largest banks runs its Bermuda swaption pricing programs in the latter. The quants who built it used Tcl, and, in the front offices, once it's working, don't fix it.

Of the Object Oriented languages, probably the best to learn is Java. Dot NET is taking a big part of the Java apps environment, but can't yet claim to have supplanted it as the OO language of choice, particularly where networks are concerned.

For true, stat driven quant work, R is very popular, particularly in hedge fund and other buy side environments where they are not going to allow non-productive IT fiefdoms to develop, and need rapid analysis and turnaround.

The way to learn R is to take an intro stat course. They all use either Stata or R. Find one that uses the latter. The former has no place in market finance.

So, bottom line:

Excel and the basics of VBA: must.

Scripting language: Python, probably best.

Object oriented: Java, until there is a reason not to.

Stat/quant support/app platform: R, enhanced by the GUI's available for it.
  • #19
  • Feb 17, 2011 11:36pm Feb 17, 2011 11:36pm
Quoting CindyXXXX
Can you for example create your own applications like MT4?

I actually need to... create my own charting platform/ charts

Where do charting platforms like MT4 get their data from? and do we have access to the same data
MT4 is just basic C, with a library of functions to do the basic, common tasks for you. If you learn C, you can write MT4 EA programs. But that's not a good reason to learn C; it is too 'low level' (doesn't mean elementary; too close to 'bit pushing'), and not object oriented.

You don't want to even think about building charting applications from the ground up. It's not hard, but it's painstaking, and hideously complex. Good news is you can buy shareware, and find freeware widgets that have done all of that for you. But you have to know a (scripting or compiled) language to manage the calls to the libraries, and to handle the data transport.

MT4, I assume, gets its data from the Market maker hosting (and paying for your use of) the program. All kinds of free historical data is out there. Gain, for example, has 10 years of tick data on their website, in csv (there, again, an industry standard Excel format: CommaSpaceValue format). I'm sure the other big MM's, like Oanda, do as well.
  • #20
  • Feb 18, 2011 12:17am Feb 18, 2011 12:17am
Wow thanks OQ you really know your stuff. I'm actually doing a maths and statistics course and they didn't use R or anything (I don't think!!). Just basic Excel functions

I'm more interested in stock market data as I don't think there is Mt4 for these things.

Do you know of a source that stores stock price data and the INDEXES that I could simply import into excel? I think for what I need as long as I can get the data into excel that would be enough

Thanks so much for your insights there.
Time hides Nothing
0 traders viewing now