10,000 hours to greatness and the Mastery Asymptote

10,000 hours to greatness and the Mastery Asymptote.

This is a little project I have been studying and endeavoring to write about. (Remember this year is the year that my focus is the psychological side of trading.)

An Asymptote is a curve that always approaches the "Mastery Line" but never touches.

Some questions I am looking into.

1. Where is 10,000 hours on this curve?

2. What is the quality of the 10,000 hours?

3. Is there a point on this curve where you "maintain" the mastery?

4. How can I incorporate steps in a traders learning on this curve?

5. Does a traders age enter in to the 10,000 hours?

6. Does personality type effect the 10,000 hours to mastery rule?

I guess if I am not careful I will be writing a book. Then again my trading plan is approaching a book.

So I will be posting some of my findings and thoughts on this manner. Also if I get into researching this I may ask for help from other traders along the lines of research when it comes to personality types and hurdles of learning that you have had to overcome.

Should be fun for me. I enjoy this stuff. Hard to believe sometimes that my career path has been in construction when my interests have been elsewhere.

Rufus



For those interested a free course on statistics and probabilities I plan on following when I have some time.
https://www.khanacademy.org/math/statistics-probability


Books

Think & Grow Rich By Napoleon Hill http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost...0&postcount=69

Hello Traders

I have decided to start another thread on the one year birthday of my Trading Journal.

The only purpose of this thread is to explore the psychological aspect of trading, Then what it takes to become a trading master.

I will be looking forward to all contributions. I am expecting this to be a multi-year project for me.

This is a topic that has been in the forefront of my mind now for some time. I am even looking into some college level courses on psychology.

So anyway this will hopefully be a journey into our subconscious minds to reveal what it is that maybe holding us back from being one of the truly great traders.

To a sound mind

Rufus

1. Asymptote is a line that a graph gets closer and closer to, but never touches or crosses it.

The Holy Grail

The 10K cliche and psychology are two different things. While 10k gives you an intuition-sure ability for a trade, psychology can instantly replace it with that of
a 400:1
NFP-only (hey, it moves!)
discretionary
bucketshop (why me?)
scalper.
Which I was, once.

Good luck.
A place to start is Editor's articles here.


-- Oh, just saw the next post.
HG lies in discretionary, so no one will use it right anyhow.

http://www.forexfactory.com/attachme...8&d=1285312151

Thank you Ingmarforex

LeBon ….. About crowds. Mass psychology of crowds

“Whoever be the individuals that compose it, however like or unlike be their mode of life, their occupations, their character, or their intelligence, the fact that they have been transformed into a crowd puts them in possession of a sort of collective mind which makes them feel think, and act in a manner quite different from that in which each individual of them would feel, think, and act were he in a state of isolation.”

People change when they join crowds. They become more credulous and impulsive, anxiously search for a leader, and react to emotions instead of using their intellect. An individual who becomes involved in a group becomes less capable of thinking for himself.

Watching a chart is watching crowd psychology. 1000's of traders are in this group. Most are following along as a crowd making emotional decisions like the above explains. People tend to be more comfortable acting and/or being with a crowd. To be a successful trader we have to break away from this crowd mentality. When was the last time you saw a mob of people make sound decisions? Yet that is what traders will try to do once their emotions are in step with those of the mass of traders that are in this crowd. Our thoughts have to remain independent of the masses. When this happens our positions in the market will be ready when the masses take price and run away with it. We just sit back and collect pips.

I love topics like this, thanks for starting it!

Just a quick comment about this post. When you say "When was the last time you saw a mob of people make sound decisions?". I don't think this is a good reason to break away from crowd thinking since in the markets there is no right or wrong decisions but rather the collective decisions of the crowd actually determines the market price. With that being said, I think it's important to try to understand how the crowd thinks and how the collective mind of it reacts rather than completely ignore it. So no matter how right or wrong their decision is given the fundamentals of the pair, they still get to determine the price.

Hi Stockey

Glad you enjoy the topic.

I agree 100% with what you are saying. My objective is to be in the position before the crowd moves it my way. Often times by the time the "Crowd" gets involved price has moved a lot.

I also contend that you can chart a riot in the streets and you would think it is a Forex chart.

Any way I am looking forward to all that can be learned from this topic.

Rufus

Hi Rufus,
here are a few topics for you to explore in the realm of psychology:

 

1. procrastination (there are some great articles on this topic at Psychology Today)
2. self-discipline
3. euphoria (aka the cocaine brain)
4. valuing self-performance (sub-topic: the false belief that one is only as good as one's last performance, not one's overall performance)
5. forgiving oneself (we've all read about forgiving others, but what about forgiving yourself for mistakes you've made that have set you back and are now causing you pain, thus pushing success ever farther into the future?)
6. expectations (including the painful topic of unfulfilled expectations)
7. pain
8. fear
9. goal (planning, achieving, evaluating results)

All of the above are governed by beliefs that one holds true about the world. If you've read Mark Douglas' books, then you know where this is coming from (if you haven't, I suggest you do and make notes as well). I'm keenly aware that putting too much weight on any one single person's theories and explanations can and sometimes does lead to delusional beliefs about oneself and one's ability to perceive the world, but what Mr. Douglas has written about beliefs ties in very well with what I've read all around the web previously on the matter of trading psychology.

This is a short snippet from my collection of notes and quotes on the topic of trading psychology to give a little taste of what you will find in Mark Douglas' second book:

THE PRIMARY CHARACTERISTICS OF A BELIEF

1. Beliefs seem to take on a life of their own and therefore resist any force that would alter their present form.
2. All active beliefs demand expression.
3. Beliefs keep on working regardless of whether or not we are consciously aware of their existence in our mental environment. (p-153 Trading in the Zone)

HOW BELIEFS SHAPE OUR LIVES

 

1. They manage our perception and interpretation of environmental information in a way that is consistent with what we believe.

2. They create our expectations. Keep in mind that an expectation is a belief projected into some future moment. Since we can't expect something we don't know about, we could also say that an expectation is what we know projected into some future moment.

3. Anything we decided to do or any outward expression of behaviour will be consistent with what we believe.
4. Finally, our beliefs shape how we feel about the results of our actions. (p.143 Trading in the Zone)

Hi,

while I may be short of ideas regarding trading compared to general ideas one makes about one-self and about the world*, I would gladly join debate with you from this standpoint.

There folows my attempt to answer your questions:

1. When you create your unique style of trading that provides you with a strong feedback mechanism (path to constant improvment ala asymptote).

2. Quality of the "10 000" hours depends on the amout of inputs from the environment you are able to receive. As a side-note, there is now research done proving that after about hour and a half of intense concentration, your focus starts to deteriorate. Virtuosos and people we might call geniuses show all similar pattern on their learning curve: average of 4 hours of intense practice daily divided into four practice intervals (all filled with peak focus and maximum enthusiasm).

3. I firmly believe the answer is yes: once you attain certain level of feedback acquiring, you are able to stay in the picture and for example provide invaluable insight even if you are no longer capable of achieving top result by yourself as time progresses.

From the example of chess grandmasters: while they might no longer compete at their peak performace level as time progresses, they still attain paramount abality of reading the game, "to stay in the picture", providing commentaries that not occasionaly gives insight better even to players at the table, to whom they would probably lost in actual series of long matches. Or tennis coaches giving leap and bounds boost to the performance of pupil which might stand at the peak of capabilities she developed by herself.

4. I believe in previous points I already gave glipse of that: paramount enthusiasm, peak focus, understanding how human brain functions and develops its capabilities -- to that literature provided at the bottom or some further post.

5. In trading I believe not: you are always able to accustom your strategy tou your current age.

6. My personal guess would be it will affect the environment in which you will thrive the best: whether it might be pit at NYSE or quiet of your room.


Literature I recently read or listened to that comes to my mind and I believe it has bearings to the subject:

The Talent Code: Greatness Isn't Born. It's Grown. Here's How (Daniel Coyle).

Bounce: Mozart, Federer, Picasso, Beckham, and the Science of Success (Matthew Syed).

Mindset, The New Psychology of Success (Carol Dweck).

The Element -- How Finding Your Passion Changes Everything (Ken Robinson)

Uncommon - Finding Your Path to Significance (Tony Dungy; didn't read whole, at least yet).

Linchpin: Are You Indispensable? (Seth Godin; about the need of changing the mind-set and the actual rules of the game).

Mindsight: The New Science of Personal Transformation (Daniel Siegel).

Blueprint for Achievement (Zig Ziglar).

Changing The Picture (Zig Ziglar).



Only the best in 2011 to all,

Martin

* To that, I would quote David Bohm : "In some sense man is a microcosm of the universe; therefore what man is, is a clue to the universe." Or more plainly: what you are not able to give, you are not able to receive; how limiting are your beliefs about yourself, so are limited your beliefs about the world in general. Or "As above, so below; as within, so without." (for starters: "Steve Chandler - The Story of You: And How to Create a New One" rocemmended addition for anyone interested).

where are the rest of your posts?

and what is the new url of your new thread (1 year anniversary thread)

I am interested in this topic and want to know where the ongoing discussion is?

thanks in advance

Hi Fxpro

This is the start of this topic.

The one year was refering to my trading journal I started last year.

Traders helping traders is the objective here. Also this has been a favorite topic of mine foe a number of years now. Great to see all the interest.

Trade Safe

Rufus

This video is for the enrichment of the minds that haven't seen it yet.



Just never be in this position

Rufus

I have been thinking about this thread for a few days now for several reasons. One, I'm a teacher/trainer and I love this subject matter and I'm working to present on this subject for a training this spring for my school. the second reason I'm teaching someone how to trade right now and have seen the speed of success that he is showing to be amazing when he is a clean slate. I would also like to help others along this track if I can.

So the first thing I think we will have to do is determine this: What is a Master of the FX markets?

I think that once we can determine what a master is, what a master does, how a master is judged/evaluated, and how a master think we can reduce the 10,000 hours down dramatically.

I have no answers on this but can put forth a few questions: Is a master of the market a TA guy, fundie guy or a combination of both?

is the amount of money they make the success we judge them by? should it be?

I've read the jack Schwager books and even in those, some of the best traders of the world disagree.

Could a person who trades only one or two set ups on one pair and trades those two set ups with the best in the world on that one pair a master?

Sdvsa: I would be interested in seeing the study you are talking about 4 hours of concentration. That is contradicting the previous studies that says optimal learning comes in 10-15 minute segments. You review previous material, introduce new material, review all material in that 10-15 minutes then have them practice that material. that is the standard of quantum learning and what is take in edcuational psy.

I like something that I read in bugs, your beliefs make you. I always tell students a henry ford quot. "if you think you can or you can't, your right."

Hey Simple

Sometimes i wish we did not live on opposite sides of the country. What you and I are interested in and studying on is so similar. I have not had much time lately to do much posting here. This topic absorbs a lot of my thought.

I am thinking I will have some time soon.

Rufus

http://home.gwu.edu/~mciprian/Cipriani-Guarino.pdf

...this is another whole can o' worms that I'll never have time to get into....

i know it's not the right place to post that but as a junior user i cant start a thread ..... i just have a Q ,,, is the broken trend stragtegy a good one to learn ? and is that a chance when the uptrend be broken down n how can i set my target n stop loss 4 dat ?
thx 4 ur time ,,, sry again

I will spend some time looking at this and see if I can get past all the stuff I see in there.

Rufus,

Why 10,000 hours? Why not 2,000? Or 5,000? Or 20,000?

Is "10,000 hours" simply a metaphor for "a very long time"?

Or is it based on a rough estimate like 5 years @ 40 hours of chart study and trading practise per week?

Just curious to know why you picked that number. There are a lot of numbers bandied about (the 95% fallout rate is another), and I wonder how accurate they are.

David