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Trade Using VSA (Volume Spread Analysis)

  • #8,261
  • Dec 6, 2010 2:59pm Dec 6, 2010 2:59pm
Quoting MKK
Hi Shamus,

I posted a ticket but where can I see the ticket id? I can't get pass the authentication.

I just thought I'm going to ask my question here. Anybody who uses SMART may answer. As i look at charts posted in posterous I see that every time SMART prints a Test of supply bar the next bar is an upbar. Is this the case and does SMART paint Test of supply bar right after it closes (when the next bar opens) ?

I would really appreciate your answers.
Your ticket was responded to a few days ago but I have posted the response here as well. Please check your email folders as I want to know if you didnt get it (a problem with the support system) or it was just routed wrong.

It was sent on Dec 2.

You created a new ticket to correct the bar name and I replied with the following:

Quote
Thu, Dec 2 2010 12:00am - Admin Admin
Hello (Name Removed),
No problem. Any VSA signal that requires confirmation (test of supply, no demand) are first painted as unconfirmed to give you a heads up of the potential change. If it does in fact confirm it is changed to confirmed. Signals that require confirmation in the next bar are the only signals that change.

I personally do not use these as tradeable signals but more as a guide that the background is changing. We include background scanners as well.

Please let me know if you have any additional...
The trend always ends.
  • #8,262
  • Dec 6, 2010 3:39pm Dec 6, 2010 3:39pm
Thank you,
I now recieved your answere.

Quoting Shamus
Your ticket was responded to a few days ago but I have posted the response here as well. Please check your email folders as I want to know if you didnt get it (a problem with the support system) or it was just routed wrong.

It was sent on Dec 2.

You created a new ticket to correct the bar name and I replied with the following:
  • #8,263
  • Dec 6, 2010 8:52pm Dec 6, 2010 8:52pm
All night long...


Chat log from the free VSA Chat room:

(9:15:32 PM) Me: closed short nzd from earlier for 175ish
(9:22:34 PM) Me: total for trades called in here this week so far (Since Sunday Evening) is 410+ pips

For trade examples using SMART check out some of the links posted recently and as always join us in the chat.

Good luck trading.
The trend always ends.
  • #8,264
  • Dec 7, 2010 11:08am Dec 7, 2010 11:08am
I have been in the chat room and see no posts i asked is anyone posting here and no answers??
Quoting Shamus
All night long...


Chat log from the free VSA Chat room:

(9:15:32 PM) Me: closed short nzd from earlier for 175ish
(9:22:34 PM) Me: total for trades called in here this week so far (Since Sunday Evening) is 410+ pips

For trade examples using SMART check out some of the links posted recently and as always join us in the chat.

Good luck trading.
  • #8,265
  • Dec 7, 2010 11:45am Dec 7, 2010 11:45am
Quoting censura
I have been in the chat room and see no posts i asked is anyone posting here and no answers??
There are 16 people in now. It depends on when you go in and a lot of them are quiet. Stick in there and you'll see me every hour or so when trading.

(12:39:33 PM) MiniShamus: closed long usd from early at 250ish

That brings the total of live trades since Sunday to 660+

Chief's live call last night on the yen also netted 250ish.
The trend always ends.
  • #8,266
  • Dec 7, 2010 3:43pm Dec 7, 2010 3:43pm
Been trying to get my head around VSA for nearly two years now, but still making a "pigs ear" of it. I shall be in the room gaining additional knowledge
if thats ok?

Thanks.
  • #8,267
  • Dec 7, 2010 4:12pm Dec 7, 2010 4:12pm
It's free to all. It can be quiet most times but if you follow the instructions for pidgin you can stay logged in and log the chats as well. The instructions for pidgin are on the first post of this thread... In the resources section. Thanks to Rob.

See you in there.

PS Be sure to pick a nickname (rather than the random assigned ones) as the bot will kick out randomly those without one.
The trend always ends.
  • #8,268
  • Dec 8, 2010 10:56am Dec 8, 2010 10:56am
From the chat:
(11:33:26 AM) Me: out both euro daily test and gbp long at 525ish +

For those keeping track we are now at nearly 1000 plus pips in called trades in the free chat room.

The total does include some "No follow" trades or demo tests like the Euro daily mentioned above.

The Euro daily test was a dud BTW and ended with -21ish pips.

Good luck trading and see you in the chat.
The trend always ends.
  • #8,269
  • Dec 8, 2010 5:50pm Dec 8, 2010 5:50pm
Greetings to all!

Am reading up abt VSA.

I read that “A test of supply occurs when the price is marked down to see if greater volume comes in at the lower price. If it does, this signifies supply is in the market. ... However, if the market is marked down and no sellers emerge at these lower prices, the price will come back up to close off the low, volume is lower relative to the prior candles.”

Can someone please help me understand the logic? What is the underlying psychology behind?

I thought to entice supply/sellers to sell, price shd be marked UP, i.e. higher, instead of lower!!

Thx.
  • #8,270
  • Dec 9, 2010 1:37am Dec 9, 2010 1:37am
As suggested i went to the chat area , i have looked before but it was so quite i thought it was not working anyway i posted here and it was suggested i try again.

I logged in and asked if some one was there - in about 10 secounds i go a response from saying choose a realname or the moose will chuck you out -

I though this a bit strange so why i was figuring out how to change my name , 10 secounds later i get kicked out you are banned

Now come on this is ridiculas

1) What nonsense about the the name if it is that important dont allow people to log in with the given details
2) How rude and unecessary , i paid for the smart trader and have tried it and struggled to make it profitable so i thought i would seek help in the live chat room is this how you treat people

3) If i was a moderator which i assume this moose guy is he should use his authority to help not be on some power trip - Shamus can you please let me know your thoughts and what i should do
  • #8,271
  • Dec 9, 2010 5:09am Dec 9, 2010 5:09am
Quoting censura
As suggested i went to the chat area , i have looked before but it was so quite i thought it was not working anyway i posted here and it was suggested i try again.

I logged in and asked if some one was there - in about 10 secounds i go a response from saying choose a realname or the moose will chuck you out -

I though this a bit strange so why i was figuring out how to change my name , 10 secounds later i get kicked out you are banned

Now come on this is ridiculas

1) What nonsense about the the name if it is that important dont...
Hi Censura. First let me say Shamoose is a bot not a person.
The reason the name matters is when there are a bunch of people chatting with the random VSA nicks it gets very confusing.

If you have any questions regarding SMART please rejoin the chat and double click my name to pm me or ask away in the main room as alot of people in there own it

Accept my apologies regarding the kick and rejoin the chat so I can help you.
The trend always ends.
  • #8,272
  • Dec 13, 2010 10:18pm Dec 13, 2010 10:18pm
  •  jaboo
  • | Joined Dec 2009 | Status: Ray Comfort is....the banana man | 236 Posts
I wasnt paying attention so i missed the most obvious place to buy which would have been after the test, i got in a little late.

I did unfortunately get stopped out at B/E. Looking at the 5/15 minute charts the small drop before move up was rather predictable.

But i wanted to share my trade set up today.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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  • #8,273
  • Dec 17, 2010 4:26am Dec 17, 2010 4:26am
Quoting jaboo
I wasnt paying attention so i missed the most obvious place to buy which would have been after the test, i got in a little late.

I did unfortunately get stopped out at B/E. Looking at the 5/15 minute charts the small drop before move up was rather predictable.

But i wanted to share my trade set up today.
Very nice analysis Jaboo.
The trend always ends.
  • #8,274
  • Dec 17, 2010 5:14am Dec 17, 2010 5:14am
Volume Spread Analysis Software

AKA People That Say “You Can’t Use SMART (Software) To Trade Volume Spread Analysis“ Are Dumb (LOL)

I see the statement “You can’t use software to trade VSA” made from time to time and wanted to address it. Stating that you cannot use software to trade VSA is akin to saying that a human can do complex math and averaging instantly and with no errors, faster or better than a calculator/computer, or put another way, that a human can instantaneously estimate all the materials needed for multiple construction projects with no errors and is somehow better than software specifically written for that purpose. Common sense, logic and billions saved in man hours show this to be untrue.

Volume Spread Analysis by it’s very nature is better served via software. I have seen some people on this forum (this very thread for instance) debate a chart and a single pattern over multiple pages with everyone (even the so called experts) chiming in on why it is or isn’t what they thought. Not only is SMART able to identify valid signals immediately on thousands of bars, it does so without any ambiguity or debate and it will do so tirelessly day and night so you don’t have to (Let's see the monkeys do that)

A similar but equally silly (dumb) subset to this argument is that software cannot get the background (strength or weakness) correct... again this is completely false and just shows the ignorance of some people and their willingness to make untrue (dumb) comments to protect their egos. It shouldn’t surprise me though as one of the monkeys saying this also thinks that lines move price (ie Hulls) rather than the inverse (price moves lines) which is true.

We know that background in it’s very basic sense is determining weakness or strength over a range of bars. If we know what indicates weakness and strength then clearly we can use that as basis to instruct a machine to correctly identify the background just as we humans do. Seems logical doesn’t it? The monkey's can spin it however they want but this is a fact, and background analysis using SMART (software) is achieved quite easily. I should add it also does this without any ambiguity or debate and it will do so tirelessly day and night so you don’t have to.

I do agree that people should understand what the signals mean (SMART shows this in realtime) and that at a minimum... a basic understanding of VSA is needed but... I also know that many people are able to just jump in and do well, and for myself, knowing VSA as I do... I know every signal SMART shows is valid, so rather than taking the time working out whether volume on a particular bar is high, ultra high or average compared to all the others in the range I use, I can trade this is why SMART is so valuable to both beginners and experts.

Good luck trading and see you in the chat (However I'll be scarce for the next couple of weeks).

PS I want to make it clear for those that don't go in the chat and won't get the joke, I don't think people saying these things are dumb (or monkeys... LOL that epithet was coined by someone in the chat to describe one of our beloved VSA "experts") hence the lol above... I just like to poke fun at people with hidden agendas.

Have a nice holiday break and I'll see you next year.
The trend always ends.
  • #8,275
  • Dec 19, 2010 2:26pm Dec 19, 2010 2:26pm
You are at least half wrong.

Let's define an Up Thrust bar. I just wrote a post with a definition. I defined an UP Thrust as a wide spread up bar (closing higher than the previous bar) that makes a higher high and not a lower low , closes on or near its low and has increasing volume.

Now let's put that into a software program. First, we must now define what is on or near the low? If you say in the lower 1/3 of the bar that’s roughly .33%. What happens if the close is at .34? The program will not read it as an Up Thrust. What if you set the close level at .25% of the bar's range? Here again we have the same problem. When the close is at say .28, the computer is not sophisticated enough to allow for this slight variance.

But let's step back a second and ask ," Is .25% better than .33%?". Only a human programmer can determine that. In other words, If a trader/programmer is going to define a low close as a close in the lower 0.25% of the range, he must FIRST determine on his own why 0.25% is better than 0.33%. Or why 0.25% is more significant than 0.285%. He or she needs to understand that the level chosen has consequences. The software simple reads code.

Now think about No Demand. A No Demand can actually close down but be making an higher high and not a lower low than the previous bar. As a programmer/trader do you want to see this bar make a higher high than the previous bar AND the bar before that? In other words, it would have a high higher than the previous two bars not simply a higher high than the previous bar. The computer can be coded to recognize either, but the human must first determine which one is of significance.

If you are using someone else's software, then you are at the mercy of their choices. Maybe you like to see a lower low than the previous two bars on your test bar. But the software developer uses a low lower than the previous bar. Not all the test you would like to see identified will be identified. Because you and the software developer have different criteria. Clearly, this can become problematic.

I would add that the process of creating your own set of VSA signals is useful for the reasons stated. An individual has to make choices and determine what type of bar characteristics matter to him. This is a valuable process. But the situation will arise where your definition of low, say 0.30% of the bars range, will not trigger a signal on a bar where the close is 0.31%. Only a human can see that this difference in negligible not a computer program.

How does SMART or Tradeguider determine a Wide Spread bar?

1. Determine the average range for X bar. This is choice #1. Is that average 8 bars or 10 or more?

2. Determine some amount greater than the average that constitutes Wide Spread. Choice #2. What is that amount? Why 1 standard deviation and not 2?

These choices have to be made in order to create the software. The validity of the choices is determined by the program's creator.

A human being on the other hand, can look at a chart and simply say "this bar is larger than the last few bars I see, so it must be more than "average". Simply put, the Art and the Subtlety of VSA remains with the human.
Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #8,276
  • Edited 3:05am Dec 20, 2010 2:20am | Edited 3:05am
Quoting HiddenGap
the computer is not sophisticated enough to allow for this slight variance.
It most certainly is... I am guessing you are not a programmer? Using segment splitting and averages a machine can do this easily, and I might add (again) over thousands of bars and with no errors and as close to instant as your processor will allow.

HG To be clear... VSA tells us everything we need to correctly identify each signal. That is how we programmed SMART. How *you* define an upthrust bar or a no demand is irrelevant... (even if it works for you) What is relevant is how VSA defines it which as I said is quite easy to achieve code wise.

And for those that want to change things up or want to do it "their way" as opposed to "the VSA way" every module has customizable settings as does the whole system (including ranges)... We thought of that.

Have nice Holiday.
The trend always ends.
  • #8,277
  • Dec 20, 2010 4:35am Dec 20, 2010 4:35am
Quoting Shamus

HG To be clear... VSA tells us everything we need to correctly identify each signal. That is how we programmed SMART. How *you* define an upthrust bar or a no demand is irrelevant... (even if it works for you) What is relevant is how VSA defines it which as I said is quite easy to achieve code wise...
Now you have shown your ignorance.

" Up-thrusts can be recognized as a wide spread up during the day (or during any timeframe), accompanied by high volume, to then close on the low,..." MTM, P. 78.

That is the definition from the source. The master. But the question is does
an up-thrust have to close on the low tick? What constitutes low? Can the close be in the lower 25% of the bar range and still be considered low? THESE ARE QUESTIONS INDIVIDUALS HAVE TO ANSWER and moreover, these are choices programmer have to make. You cannot tell a computer in situation A low is the low tick. In situation B the low is in the lower 10% of the range, and in situation C it may be 25%- it just depends.

An individual can make decisions based on the subtleties of the situation a computer cannot.

If you could think of every possible situation you could program it, but you cannot think of every possible contingency. There are a myriad of examples from TG webinars where Gavin would point to a bar and say "this is no demand", but the bar would not have a signal. His explanation, "the human brain is better than any computer program will every be".

P.S. I am not even going to mention the fact that in VSA there is no such thing as spinning row boat, or whatever the frak you call it. Nor am I going to say anything about the fact that VSA does not use candles...But if you want to play the "pure" VSA card you fail there too.
Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #8,278
  • Dec 20, 2010 6:55am Dec 20, 2010 6:55am
Quoting HiddenGap
Now you have shown your ignorance.

" Up-thrusts can be recognized as a wide spread up during the day (or during any timeframe), accompanied by high volume, to then close on the low,..." MTM, P. 78.

That is the definition from the source. The master. But the question is does
an up-thrust have to close on the low tick? What constitutes low? Can the close be in the lower 25% of the bar range and still be considered low? THESE ARE QUESTIONS INDIVIDUALS HAVE TO ANSWER and moreover, these are choices programmer have to make. You cannot tell...
The spinning rowboat is is what we call SMART VSA... SMART VSA patterns are multiple bar patterns made up of two or more VSA signals. A spinning rowboat is made up of an effort to rise followed by an upthrust. When these two patterns occur one after the other on a chart the combined pattern is painted. There are a bunch of these patterns we have found and many more we are testing. Just as in regular VSA certain patterns come up time and time again and these multiple bar patterns are the same but SMART makes them much easier to see. As with every aspect of SMART you can choose what you want to see or not, you can decide what range and custom settings you want both globally and on a per module basis if you wish.

Candles or bars there is no difference to SMART. It looks at Volume, Spread, and Close of each bar just as you do. We paint the signals and painted candles make things look better aesthetically which is why we use them instead of bars.

I am not really the ignorant one here LOL. It's pretty simple really and I gave you a clue as to how we programmed the interpretive engine and if you *got it*, we could move on but you didn't. No sense beating a dead horse.

We could clear this up very quickly... Using pure VSA annotate a chart using any pair and time frame. I will then post up the same using SMART.

I have done this in the thread before and that person became a client shortly thereafter and also reported in this thread (as many others have) the software paying for itself in one day. (links below)

Links:
http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost...postcount=7820
http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost...postcount=7821
http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost...postcount=7822
http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost...postcount=7950
http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost...postcount=7958

So... what do you say? Cool? I did ask you to do this a long time ago as well but never got a reply.
The trend always ends.
  • #8,279
  • Dec 21, 2010 4:30am Dec 21, 2010 4:30am
Shamus, why have you suspended access for HiddenGap?
  • #8,280
  • Dec 21, 2010 5:06am Dec 21, 2010 5:06am
Quoting McL
Shamus, why have you suspended access for HiddenGap?
Yeah that would be a shame. Spirited debate is always fun. You actually get to promote your software even more.
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