It's kind of curious...the war between price and indicators | Page 7 | Forex Factory

Options

Go to
Permalinks
Print Thread

Similar Threads

Ratio between two indicators for example Rsi5 and Rsi10 0 replies

Looking for a nice and kind person to program a script 2 replies

Just Curious...Has anyone here consistantly made $$$ trading with Forex.com? 4 replies

Curious... 16 replies

Attachments: It's kind of curious...the war between price and indicators
Exit Attachments

It's kind of curious...the war between price and indicators

  • #121
  • Nov 30, 2010 9:54am Nov 30, 2010 9:54am
Quoting Delite
Yes, I know that thread, but I think he was trading H1 inside bars, long if they above the price at 6am and short if below it.

The 6am bit seemed a bit arbitrary to me, and I often use the rollover price as a line in the sand. However, more recently I have been simply using MA's as a guide - the 12, 24 and 48 along with the daddy 200. Only when price is below all will I short or above all will I long. This may mean some missed trades, but does help to keep you out of trouble.

Couple this with the idea that the best trade is the first retracement,...
Yeah I am not very intimate with that thread but your summary rings some bells.

Sounds like you have a good plan mapped out. And if you stick to the rules you set for yourself which when you think about it can be completely objective rather than subjective you have put yourself on the side of success
Nothing is impossible, with a willing mind!
  • #122
  • Nov 30, 2010 9:57am Nov 30, 2010 9:57am
Quoting fxvoilaaa
or hang on, isn't everything an indicator?
Hey now stop with the deep thinking LOL
Nothing is impossible, with a willing mind!
  • #123
  • Nov 30, 2010 9:58am Nov 30, 2010 9:58am
Trader V

This also has sparked a memory of a thread started by brijon. In a rather flowery fashion he describes a method of determining long or short by using the previous candle's open, high and low.

So, for example, if the open of your current candle is above the previous, then you will go long once the previous candle's high is broken. If the open is below the previous candle's open then you will short when the previous candle's low is breached.

He used this on a M15 t/f.

Hope that makes sense!
  • #124
  • Nov 30, 2010 10:00am Nov 30, 2010 10:00am
Quoting Trader_V
Hey now stop with the deep thinking LOL
Lol, I know, this deep shit is getting to me.
  • #125
  • Nov 30, 2010 10:18am Nov 30, 2010 10:18am
Focus... focus... focus...

OK, good discussion. Listen carefully.

Let me quote myself:

Point #1:

" http://cdn.forexfactory.com/images/s...m/thinking.gif The charts are governed by 2 Hemispheres; BUY hemisphere and SELL hemisphere. You ONLY BUY in the BUY Hemisphere. You ONLY SELL in the SELL Hemisphere. You can establish the boundaries wherever you like. You can use whatever tool you want to establish a boundary. The Crucial Point is that a boundary must be established."

Guys, I'm not talking in riddles. "You can establish the boundaries wherever you like. You can use whatever tool you want." When I open my chart whatever the current price is, I can take that as my reference point/a boundary.


Point #2:

I agree with Eurotrash about open/close. It is subjective. Sometimes I have to refer to open and close because people will get confused. I don't deal with S/R, I don't deal with open/close... That's what I mean, I don't deal with history. It would be hard to teach if I have nothing to point at. Support/Resistance, I couldn't care less.... Is my system telling me to buy, hold, sell, exit?... That's all that matters to me.

First I need to ground myself... so I need a reference point. Again:
"The beauty of a 6 dimensional charting world is that you can place the boundaries wherever you like. The crucial point is that a boundary must be established."


Point #3:

Moving averages:
"http://cdn.forexfactory.com/images/s...m/thinking.gif The rule is a number that can be divided by the hour evenly (or divisible by the number of candlestick within the hour evenly)
Why hourly?... because the world's clock is synchronized hourly. "

All I was saying is that:
"If" you are to use MA, is to stop curve-fitting it.

example: Why would you use 100ma on an hourly chart?
Basically, what you are doing is that you are averaging 100 candles or 100hrs. Why would you want to average 100hrs?

All I'm saying is:
To be consistent, you just can't use any number with MA. It defeats the purpose of MA. You have to average whole hourly numbers to get some consistency. Instead, if you just use any number, you are averaging fractions,... which will lead to inconsistency.
  • #126
  • Nov 30, 2010 10:43am Nov 30, 2010 10:43am
Ok well it's good to know I wasn't to far off except for maybe some of the MA stuff

So now the only thing that hasn't really been uncovered is the entry and exit criteria.

Now I know from my own readings that I believe I have seen what CP has referred to concerning entries. In fact he posted a picture of some candles at one point which essentially showed a bias to where sellers or buyers have taken control. If you marry that up with a retracement you have some good entry criteria.
Nothing is impossible, with a willing mind!
  • #127
  • Nov 30, 2010 10:46am Nov 30, 2010 10:46am
Quoting Delite
Trader V

This also has sparked a memory of a thread started by brijon. In a rather flowery fashion he describes a method of determining long or short by using the previous candle's open, high and low.

So, for example, if the open of your current candle is above the previous, then you will go long once the previous candle's high is broken. If the open is below the previous candle's open then you will short when the previous candle's low is breached.

He used this on a M15 t/f.

Hope that makes sense!
This idea makes sense. But I'm not sure about the open above or below the previous close bit. I mean in an ideal situation wouldn't the open and close be equal except for time?
Nothing is impossible, with a willing mind!
  • #128
  • Nov 30, 2010 10:51am Nov 30, 2010 10:51am
Is there any advantage to having multiple "buy/sell hemispheres"? For example, in one of CP's older posts, he shows how you can place lines for the open of the daily, 4-hr, 1-hr, etc. Instead of trading when price is only above/below one of those lines, would it be more advantageous to wait for price to be above below all the lines in order to keep you out of chop? I hope I'm not complicating this more than it needs to be.
  • #129
  • Nov 30, 2010 11:01am Nov 30, 2010 11:01am
Quoting Trader_V
Now I know from my own readings that I believe I have seen what CP has referred to concerning entries. In fact he posted a picture of some candles at one point which essentially showed a bias to where sellers or buyers have taken control. If you marry that up with a retracement you have some good entry criteria.
That was old school trading for me (ah memories )... I've simplified that method a lot more.

I can guarantee that is it profitable and forever to come. Anyone can take that method and run away with it: The First Pullback The only hurdle is to hunt it down and wait for it.
  • #130
  • Nov 30, 2010 11:03am Nov 30, 2010 11:03am
Quoting Trader_V
... But think about it this way. Instead of examining S/R for entries examine them for exits.

We never know if S/R will hold or not. So if we are looking to enter the market based on a bounce off a S/R area it's a crap shoot.

Now assume you entered the market in the direction of a trend based on a retracement and continuation move. Because of mass market psychology when price approaches a S/R area it is important to observe how price reacts at that area. Since we don't know if it will hold or fail it would be premature to just exit haphazardly......
This is a great discussion. To examine all angles...

I actually do the opposite (on my entry timeframe). I consider support and resistance more important than trend (again, on my entry timeframe).
I enter at support and resistance, and use the trend to take me out of trades.

If this is true-
Quoting Trader_V
We never know if S/R will hold or not. So if we are looking to enter the market based on a bounce off a S/R area it's a crap shoot.
Could we not also say this?-
We never know if the trend will continue or not. So if we are looking to enter the market based upon a retracement within the trend... it's a crap shoot.

Basically, is it logical and rational to believe that if we 'flipped' reasons for entry and exit that we could be equally profitable? (honest question)
  • #131
  • Edited 11:29am Nov 30, 2010 11:16am | Edited 11:29am
Quoting scottymoll
Is there any advantage to having multiple "buy/sell hemispheres"? For example, in one of CP's older posts, he shows how you can place lines for the open of the daily, 4-hr, 1-hr, etc. Instead of trading when price is only above/below one of those lines, would it be more advantageous to wait for price to be above below all the lines in order to keep you out of chop? I hope I'm not complicating this more than it needs to be.
That's when you don't want to be looking back and forth on different TF. People use 3-4 TF... They go back and forth, back and forth... I look at one TF and see the whole picture.

That's what I was trying to teach. By converting MTF into a single TF. You don't need multiple boundaries.

To keep you out of the chop requires the proper entry criteria... because when price becomes choppy on boundaries (or any location), your entry criteria "should/must naturally" keep you away. If your entry doesn't keep you away, you've got a bad entry criteria. This applies for all strategies, method and systems. Every trading system, method and strategy that cannot identify choppy periods to keep you away is a failed trading endeavor.
  • #132
  • Nov 30, 2010 11:22am Nov 30, 2010 11:22am
Quoting Intu
We never know if the trend will continue or not. So if we are looking to enter the market based upon a retracement within the trend... it's a crap shoot.

Basically, is it logical and rational to believe that if we 'flipped' reasons for entry and exit that we could be equally profitable? (honest question)
1. One really needs to have a solid exit to take one out off either continuation or reversal... because you are 100% correct, you never know. All you have is that within a trend.... you have the momentum (newton's law) behind your back.

"Basically, is it logical and rational to believe that if we 'flipped' reasons for entry and exit that we could be equally profitable? (honest question)"
Could you please explain more... I don't quite follow.
  • #133
  • Nov 30, 2010 11:24am Nov 30, 2010 11:24am
Quoting CrucialPoint
That was old school trading for me (ah memories )... I've simplified that method a lot more.

I can guarantee that is it profitable and forever to come. Anyone can take that method and run away with it: The First Pullback The only hurdle is to hunt it down and wait for it.
Ah I see Master Yoda

But isn't that 1st pullback based on each persons TF?

So on your chart for instance assuming it is 1M, I would think it is the first pullback of the crossing over from buy to sell hemisphere. And your buy and sell hemisphere is derived from the crossing of the MA's.

Now I just need to figure out which MA's you are using LOL
Nothing is impossible, with a willing mind!
  • #134
  • Nov 30, 2010 11:30am Nov 30, 2010 11:30am
Quoting CrucialPoint

That's what I was trying to teach. By converting MTF into a single TF. You don't need multiple boundaries.
Exactly! So is your hemisphere based off all the lines (daily, 4-hr, 1-hr) on the chart, or do you have one boundary line that you use for reference?
  • #135
  • Nov 30, 2010 11:33am Nov 30, 2010 11:33am
Quoting CrucialPoint
Could you please explain more... I don't quite follow.
I think I'm trying to find justification for my so-so entries and my really bad exits.

My question previously may be nonsense, let's disregard it for now.
But thanks...
  • #136
  • Nov 30, 2010 11:44am Nov 30, 2010 11:44am
Quoting Trader_V
But isn't that 1st pullback based on each persons TF?

So on your chart for instance assuming it is 1M, I would think it is the first pullback of the crossing over from buy to sell hemisphere. And your buy and sell hemisphere is derived from the crossing of the MA's.

Now I just need to figure out which MA's you are using LOL
1. Yes. because there is no difference between higher TF and smaller TF.
2. My personal boundaries are not derived from MA
3. You don't need to. I told you them already. I use the correct calculations of MA for different TF. On 1m the numbers are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20, 30, 60, 120, 180, 240, 300, 360, 420, 480 etc...

Quoting scottymoll
Exactly! So is your hemisphere based off all the lines (daily, 4-hr, 1-hr) on the chart, or do you have one boundary line that you use for reference?
One boundary. There are only 2 hemispheres: buy hemisphere and sell hemisphere.
Don't confuse converting MTF into single TF as hemispheres. They are different things.
  • #137
  • Nov 30, 2010 12:38pm Nov 30, 2010 12:38pm
Quoting CrucialPoint
1. Yes. because there is no difference between higher TF and smaller TF.
2. My personal boundaries are not derived from MA
3. You don't need to. I told you them already. I use the correct calculations of MA for different TF. On 1m the numbers are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20, 30, 60, 120, 180, 240, 300, 360, 420, 480 etc...

OK so I am not understanding your chart completely then. Where it says "new phase" I would think that is the buy/sell boundary. So what might new phase actually mean on your chart?

Are you using the open price of an hourly bar as your boundary?

And the MA's on your 1M are based on a higher TF and a shorter TF. but there is a combination that works best to give clear information about the trend. Trying to deduce the formula
Nothing is impossible, with a willing mind!
  • #138
  • Nov 30, 2010 12:54pm Nov 30, 2010 12:54pm
Oh snap!!!!!!

I just figured something out! Not sure what yet but will let you know when I figure it out LOL
Nothing is impossible, with a willing mind!
  • #139
  • Nov 30, 2010 1:01pm Nov 30, 2010 1:01pm
Quoting Trader_V
Trying to deduce the formula
Don't and Stop.

No-one will know how I trade unless I explain how I trade step by step. And that was not my intention in the first place.

Take what you can. Everything will fall into place on its own accord when you are ready. If things don't make sense, you require more experience. Trying to deduce something when you are not ready won't help you in any way.

It is like trying to create a sentence without ever knowing your alphabets. It is a step by step process. Learn your abc... write your name... write a word... learn your grammar... write one sentence... write a paragraph... learn to structure... write an article... learn to research... write a book... learn the contexts... write a masterpiece.

What you are trying to do by dissecting how I trade is simply trying to go from your ABC to writing a masterpiece. Trust me, it won't happen. Creating a masterpiece requires a solid foundation of experience and knowledge, mixed with creativity. Trading is no different.
  • #140
  • Nov 30, 2010 1:40pm Nov 30, 2010 1:40pm
Quoting CrucialPoint
Don't and Stop.

No-one will know how I trade unless I explain how I trade step by step. And that was not my intention in the first place.

Take what you can. Everything will fall into place on its own accord when you are ready. If things don't make sense, you require more experience. Trying to deduce something when you are not ready won't help you in any way.

It is like trying to create a sentence without ever knowing your alphabets. It is a step by step process. Learn your abc... write your name......
I mean this in the best way possible. Big smile on my face and all so when reading this please keep that in mind. I know how easily things can be taken out of context in text.

I an earlier post you mentioned this is the stuff that you have been trying to teach people. I personally have put in years of screen time and I do ok as a trader. I'm no Rockafellar but I do ok. So by me trying to determine your trading methodology I am adding a tool in my toolbox, maybe even change a dynamic in my trading.

I am a firm believer in a teach a man to fish technique. And I think that is what has been done here. Heck even Richard Dennis proved if you throw a man a bone some will survive off it and others will starve. And by trying to figure out what it is you are showing people and finally putting the peices together like I have been doing is just that "teaching a man to fish". So for you to shoot me down and say Don't and Stop is the opposite of the original goal.

Heck the fact that I understood more of what you were saying than many folks before should be an indication that I have paid many dues.

So then by all means please continue teaching folks. But don't shut them down for trying to figure things out. Otherwise what do you have to gain by sharing information with folks that doesn't give them enough to work from?

And I really do mean this post in the lightest of ways
Nothing is impossible, with a willing mind!
1 trader viewing now