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People say systems don't work (only pure price action does)

  • #61
  • Nov 19, 2010 5:11pm Nov 19, 2010 5:11pm
Like many I started trading with systems and indicators blindly, until my first account got wiped out. I cleared all indicators off my charts and left only two of them - SR lines and bclock. I stopped scalping and started trading on 4H TF and things have been going well so far (measly amount of 33% this year).

Here's a way to look at indicators and PA which has worked for me:

PA nurtures your gut feelings, indicators give you guts; with gut feelings being the king.

Gut feeling comes from understanding the market structure and the science behind the force driving it to fluctuate. It also comes from spending endless time looking at a chart.

Indicators and systems give you the guts to execute an order, cut your losses and press your winners. Nevertheless, indicators and systems are but the finger pointing to the moon, not the moon itself. If you keep looking at the finger you will miss the big picture.

Once you get the gut feeling going I'm sure you will find a system or trading style that suits you.

Good pipping.

Zen
  • #62
  • Nov 19, 2010 5:19pm Nov 19, 2010 5:19pm
Quoting CindyXXXX
Just want to add that I distinctly remember coming onto Forex Factory 3 months after dicovering trading and being keen and eager. I would post things and say things and then some 10V (was 10K at the time) would come on and take the piss out of me or just be a rude prick. and looking back they werent really trying to offend me, they were just cutting the BS and telling it how it was. If I had actually listened to some of the things they told me back then it might have saved me many hours of trial and error but being optimistic and not properly aquainted...
I feel your pain and anger seriously. This was how I felt when I hit the wall after trying out over hundreds of EAs and systems. But hey, all of us started somewhere (and still learning), this thread might be a starting point for someone else so maybe it would help to contribute a little of what we have learned.

I hope you didn't take what I said in the previous post as being offensive cos I'm starting to like your style of conversing (upfront and no BS).
  • #63
  • Edited 5:53pm Nov 19, 2010 5:33pm | Edited 5:53pm
Quoting zenkh
I feel your pain and anger seriously. This was how I felt when I hit the wall after trying out over hundreds of EAs and systems. But hey, all of us started somewhere (and still learning), this thread might be a starting point for someone else so maybe it would help to contribute a little of what we have learned.

I hope you didn't take what I said in the previous post as being offensive cos I'm starting to like your style of conversing (upfront and no BS).
Nah not at all no harm done mate Im an Aussie too. I agree with what you said.

But no pain and anger here though... Everything tends to balance out in the end. If I wasted time through my own hard headedness it was prob for my own good in the end. But your right we all start somewhere people shouldnt feel scared to ask questions

On topic then... In my own experience I havent had an indicator on my charts in years, but this isnt to say they dont work becasue I simply dont know and Ive heard of many people using them successfully.

Price action is non lagging and this is its biggest advantage. But just cause someone says something its really doesnt mean anything. You need to go with how your feeling and be your own judge about what does and doesnt work. Just IMO. When your learning I think its a good thing to go through heaps of bad systems indicators or not. Even just to see what doesnt work or what does work sometimes and not other times (trending and ranging for example).

Hope Ive redeemed myself!
Time hides Nothing
  • #64
  • Nov 19, 2010 6:00pm Nov 19, 2010 6:00pm
Quoting CindyXXXX
Nah not at all no harm done mate Im an Aussie too. I agree with what you said.

But no pain and anger here though... Everything tends to balance out in the end. If I wasted time through my own hard headedness it was prob for my own good in the end. But your right we all start somewhere people shouldnt feel scared to ask questions

On topic then... In my own experience I havent had an indicator on my charts in years, but this isnt to say they dont work becasue I simply dont know and Ive heard of many people using them successfully.

Price action...
Hahaha... You have more than redeemed yourself mate. There was no need for any redemption in the first place anyway; you were just voicing your own opinion which everyone has the right to.

Trading should be classified as an Art - each and every person has his own style and preferences. The point here is that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A HOLY GRAIL. I didn't believe what I just said when I bought Fapturbo couple of years back

I'll be joining you to study soon, going back to Uni next year to do a new course, how very exciting.. By the way summer holiday should have started already hasn't it? Why are you still studying?
  • #65
  • Nov 19, 2010 6:05pm Nov 19, 2010 6:05pm
Quoting zenkh
Hahaha... You have more than redeemed yourself mate. There was no need for any redemption in the first place anyway; you were just voicing your own opinion which everyone has the right to.

Trading should be classified as an Art - each and every person has his own style and preferences. The point here is that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A HOLY GRAIL. I didn't believe what I just said when I bought Fapturbo couple of years back

I'll be joining you to study soon, going back to Uni next year to do a new course, how very exciting.. By the way...
Im doing it through OUA which is delivered online. Its cool, can just do it at my leisure. Bit old for the whoe "UNI scene" anyway. They have 4x 12 week study periods a year so bit of a deifferent set up to the normal unis and you can study all year round.

Im doing a bachelor of Business in Financial Planning this is just my first year prob 2 to go after this year. Ideally I want to live off trading but just doing this incase I need it sorta thing.

Got an exam in a week then the new subjects start pretty much the same dayas the exam.
Time hides Nothing
  • #66
  • Nov 19, 2010 6:15pm Nov 19, 2010 6:15pm
Quoting CindyXXXX
Just want to add that I distinctly remember coming onto Forex Factory 3 months after dicovering trading and being keen and eager. I would post things and say things and then some 10V (was 10K at the time) would come on and take the piss out of me or just be a rude prick. and looking back they werent really trying to offend me, they were just cutting the BS and telling it how it was. If I had actually listened to some of the things they told me back then it might have saved me many hours of trial and error but being optimistic and not properly aquainted...
Sometimes it can be good for people to learn the hard way
  • #67
  • Nov 19, 2010 6:20pm Nov 19, 2010 6:20pm
Quoting fxvoilaaa
Sometimes it can be good for people to learn the hard way
Totally agree -

I have a brother who till he takes his last breath wil NEVER be told. This gets him into lots of trouble at times but on the flip side he force feeds himself experience, 1 year out of his apprenticeship was the owner of his own small handy man business which today is going stong. He just finished his apprenticeship and went "Why work for someone else when I can just be the boss" lol and did it. Of course people were giving him the stats on small businesses and his age and what not but of course they were wasting their breath.


Hes the most hard headed bastard I know lol
Time hides Nothing
  • #68
  • Nov 19, 2010 6:24pm Nov 19, 2010 6:24pm
Quoting CindyXXXX
Business in Financial Planning
Me to thug, 20 cred hours left. It's a great job, I did an internship with a major FP firm to confirm that I could trade at the same time.

No fuckin prob dude.
  • #69
  • Nov 19, 2010 6:24pm Nov 19, 2010 6:24pm
Nice posts CindyXXXX.

There's one thing I'd like to comment on:

Quoting CindyXXXX
In my own experience I havent had an indicator on my charts in years, but this isnt to say they dont work
You see, therein lies the problem with our view of indicators. They do work, they do their job fine. Saying they don't work is like saying charts don't work.

The way I personally see it, indicators' job is not to predict future price, only extract some kind of information from past and current price (such as volatility, trendiness, cyclicness and so on) for analytical purposes, which can be quite handy for people who like to consider such factors. We however (especially when new to trading) tend to view them as predictors, i.e. when indicator A does this and indicator B does that, go short. If that's the way one were to view/use indies, then he can rest assured they don't work and should probably get rid of them.

Quoting jag1966
Thanks, happy trading buddy. http://cdn.forexfactory.com/images/s...m/big_grin.gif
To you too mate.
  • #70
  • Nov 19, 2010 6:27pm Nov 19, 2010 6:27pm
Quoting Marv
Nice posts CindyXXXX.

There's one thing I'd like to comment on:



You see, therein lies the problem with our view of indicators. They do work, they do their job fine. Saying they don't work is like saying charts don't work.
Key: "my experience"

Of course indicators work for some people. My account grows consistently without them, and that's not how it was with indicators. Doesn't mean I don't like them or think they don't work, I'm just concerned with $ and that's my experience
  • #71
  • Nov 19, 2010 6:31pm Nov 19, 2010 6:31pm
Quoting zenkh
Trading should be classified as an Art - each and every person has his own style and preferences.
I wouldn't classify trading as an Art (at least not literally) because a trader isn't really creating any works of art.

I would classify it as a business. Two people can have two completely different and unique business models, yet both may succeed.
  • #72
  • Nov 19, 2010 6:40pm Nov 19, 2010 6:40pm
Quoting frankkn
Me to thug, 20 cred hours left. It's a great job, I did an internship with a major FP firm to confirm that I could trade at the same time.

No fuckin prob dude.
Ah cook Frankkn Im thinking about doing the same thing next year.
Time hides Nothing
  • #73
  • Nov 19, 2010 7:28pm Nov 19, 2010 7:28pm
I think a system is best to avoid emotional trading.. and indicators lag but can still be profitable.. and price action is deffinitly better because no lag.

no one way is best.. a non system method can work if your discipline etc.
  • #74
  • Nov 19, 2010 9:58pm Nov 19, 2010 9:58pm
Quoting zenkh
Trading should be classified as an Art - each and every person has his own style and preferences.
The result in art is subjective, in trading it is not - we either profit or lose. Trading is more of a sport than an art, though I'm sure someone will come and suggest sport at a high level is an art. Let's stick to what the mainstream would classify as "art".

Quoting CindyXXXX
Just want to add that I distinctly remember coming onto Forex Factory 3 months after dicovering trading and being keen and eager. I would post things and say things and then some 10V (was 10K at the time) would come on and take the piss out of me or just be a rude prick.
They were taking the piss . Happens in every environment where skill and experience varies so greatly. The difference is that in say the army, it's more tough love, while here it will be more about entertainment/ego/"someone is wrong on the internet".
  • #75
  • Nov 20, 2010 4:11am Nov 20, 2010 4:11am
Quoting supremeChaos
Moms have faith in their kids.... & often they are right.

haha... i love outliers.
Thanks for sharing your story.
i think these are just 2 of the many countries he's been to.
Yes, it's true. And one of the lessons it taught me was to have faith in my boys as well. I'll support them in anything they want to do, after all it's their life, not mine.

Another lesson is that people always want to keep you at their level. When you move away from them, you invalidate them in a way, whether they're conscious of it or not. This is why it's so hard to stay friends with people once you've moved on to new things. You have to find new friends.

Another lesson is that even when you prove some people wrong, they're so unbelievably stupid that they refuse to acknowledge they were wrong. These are some of the most dangerous people in the world.

I've been to 63 countries, some of them numerous times. Since 1998, I've spent 8 weeks in the US, even though I'm American. I went 6 years without going home at all (it's much easier when you're parents are gone to do this, btw).

In the same span, I've spent 14 months in Thailand. I like to use it as a base for traveling through Asia. There's something about the vitality of Asia that I find so attractive that it continues to draw me year after year. I like Europe, but it just feels so static and conservative. It looks nice, but it just doesn't have that energy that Asia has.
  • #76
  • Edited 4:50am Nov 20, 2010 4:46am | Edited 4:50am
Quoting Marv
Nice posts CindyXXXX.

There's one thing I'd like to comment on:



You see, therein lies the problem with our view of indicators. They do work, they do their job fine. Saying they don't work is like saying charts don't work.

The way I personally see it, indicators' job is not to predict future price, only extract some kind of information from past and current price (such as volatility, trendiness, cyclicness and so on) for analytical purposes, which can be quite handy for people who like to consider such factors. We however (especially...
Another good post pro certain indis Marv. I found a few moving averages are a great help in visualising swing cycles. I have an open mind about adding them back to my charts to help with visualising longer term targets. Maybe after I understand PA better I will have a go again.

I do love my clean charts though, hehe.

Naked price action. It's fashionable these days!
  • #77
  • Edited 9:55am Nov 20, 2010 9:44am | Edited 9:55am
haha yeah

Personally I currently use naked charts for 3 pairs, 3 time-frames each.

I do have a couple indicator charts I have set aside separately (with only the indicators on them). One chart with the volatility of the 3 pairs, and another with a couple other things. I don't expect them to give me entry signals or anything like that though. I don't know if I use PA because I don't rely on any specific price patterns even though I do note some candle formations (I believe the market doesn't care what candle formation it's currently on, if there's a strong buyer, price will move up and vice versa regardless of the shapes we see), but rather certain behavioral patterns with regards to the big buyers/sellers going in and out of the market.
  • #78
  • Nov 20, 2010 2:53pm Nov 20, 2010 2:53pm
Came across a video that showed good backtest results when buying/selling majors after 6 consecutive closed up/down days and exit based on same rule. Is this considered as a system or price action?
  • #79
  • Nov 20, 2010 3:05pm Nov 20, 2010 3:05pm
Quoting virtualmoney
Came across a video that showed good backtest results when buying/selling majors after 6 consecutive closed up/down days and exit based on same rule. Is this considered as a system or price action?
A price action system
Time hides Nothing
  • #80
  • Nov 20, 2010 3:33pm Nov 20, 2010 3:33pm
Everybody uses a "system" of sorts no matter how discretionary we are, unless we trade randomly.
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