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  • #621
  • Sep 25, 2010 11:09pm Sep 25, 2010 11:09pm
Quoting TradeRunner
As was noted.... by the strict definition of there only being a loser or a winner (as in a coin toss) forex does not fit that definition.... there will be some who make money.... no matter what. Do you suppose that is the reason for a brokers longevity or are they just "tossing a coin".
No one includes spreads, etc when looking at whether a financial market is zero sum.... again refer to my previous post.
  • #622
  • Sep 25, 2010 11:14pm Sep 25, 2010 11:14pm
Quoting TradeRunner
As was noted.... by the strict definition of there only being a loser or a winner (as in a coin toss) forex does not fit that definition.... there will be some who make money.... no matter what. Do you suppose that is the reason for a brokers longevity or are they just "tossing a coin".
I should not argue with sutpidity it was my new years resolution, so I am done with you...
Stubbornly persistent
  • #623
  • Sep 25, 2010 11:21pm Sep 25, 2010 11:21pm
Quoting Deusomega
No one includes spreads, etc when looking at whether a financial market is zero sum.... again refer to my previous post.
And when exactly did I include spreads in my definition of a "coin toss". Did I say "coin toss plus a 3 point spread on a nickel". I don't think so. I think you're like so many others and would just like to argue with a rock. Anyway here is a quote that will sum it up because I'm really too dumb (numb) to care.

"There is a misconception among some traders that every trade must have a winner and a loser. There is a great deal of misinformation out there, and there have even been books published recently that incorrectly state that Forex trading is a zero-sum game. In order to clear up the confusion created by these inaccuracies, let's first understand the meaning of that phrase.

Suppose you place a friendly bet with an acquaintance on the outcome of a football match. Each of you puts up an equal amount of money, let's say $100, and at the end of the game, one of you will walk away with $200 and the other will be $100 poorer. That is a zero-sum game in its purist sense; unless the game ends in a tie, there will be one winner and one loser, end of story.

Now let's apply this concept to the currency market; suppose you enter a long position on EUR/USD and at the same time, another trader takes a short position in the same currency pair. The broker simply matches the orders and collects the spread. This is exactly what the broker wants, to keep the entire spread and maintain a flat position.

Does this mean that in the above scenario one party has to win, and one must lose? Not at all, in fact both traders can win or lose; perhaps one has entered a short-term trade and the other has entered a long-term trade. Perhaps the first trader will take a profit quickly, but there is no rule that states the second trader must close his trade at the same time. Later in the day, the price reverses, and the second trader takes his profit as well. In this scenario, the broker made money (on the spread) and both traders did, too. This destroys the oft-repeated fallacy that every Forex trade is a zero-sum game.

By the way, stock trading is not a zero-sum game either. Suppose you buy 100 shares of XYZ at $40, and sell it at $50. Another trader buys it from you at $50 and sells it at $60. Yet another trader buys it at $60 and sells it at $70. Which trader lost money? None of them did, they all made $10 per share. What about traders who are short XYZ? There is no rule that states that anyone has to short XYZ stock, and it is highly unlikely that there are as many shorts as there are longs, or more precisely, that there are as many shares sold short as there are purchased long.

What type of trade can be accurately called a zero-sum game? Options come to mind; suppose you purchase some XYZ call options, where did they come from? In order for you to purchase those calls, someone else has to sell or "write" them. If the price of XYZ stock reaches the strike price and beyond, the buyer wins, and if it fails to do so, the seller wins. While this represents a true zero-sum game, it is clear that this situation is the exception, not the rule. Trading can be a zero-sum game, but that isn't always the case. I just wish people would think about these things a bit more deeply before they state or write that trading is a zero-sum game."
  • #624
  • Sep 25, 2010 11:25pm Sep 25, 2010 11:25pm
yes the traderunner charactor is not the brightest crayon in the box, to say the least. no reason to argue with the guy. let him whine about how his rights to over leverage and gamble in a market he doesn't understand are being taken away.

great song by the way guy... LOL. It shows a reason why CFTC feels they need to babysit us. Did you listen to those lyrics? oh man that's f'n retarded.

my understanding is the stock market is not zero-sum, while futures and forex are.

so are you saying it depends on how your broker is operating which is the factor to whether forex is actually zero-sum?
  • #625
  • Sep 25, 2010 11:32pm Sep 25, 2010 11:32pm
Quoting Deusomega
Here is a not so intelligent rebuttal.

You sir are a moron.

I have never heard anyone discuss job creation when talking about whether or not something is zero sum.

Zero sum is simply If I win +1 then someone loses -1 therefore adding together it equals 0.

Again you sir are an idiot.

May god have mercy on your soul because everyone who has read your ramblings have been made forever and irrevertably dumber.
And now you have simply proven your impotence and total ignorance. If you have never heard of that it simply proves that you have not studied the subject.... you remain forever ignorant because you refuse to research new possibilities and new ideas. May your god have pity on your worthless soul !!
  • #626
  • Sep 25, 2010 11:33pm Sep 25, 2010 11:33pm
Quoting TradeRunner
....... I just wish people would think about these things a bit more deeply before they state or write that trading is a zero-sum game."
Fully agree with TradeRunner.

Statement: Forex Trading is not a Zero Sum game for individual traders but a Zero (rather Minus Sum) Game only for sum total of all traders, provided brokers do not enter into the arena of jobbing.

Explanation: If brokers remain flat and earn their bread from spread/commission, there will always be a winner for every loser but that winner or loser not necessarily be one particular trader or a particular group of traders in one particular time period. Therefore, trading is not a zero sum game with reference to individual traders.
The Thief of Wall Street
  • #627
  • Sep 25, 2010 11:40pm Sep 25, 2010 11:40pm
Quoting Monroe
yes the traderunner charactor is not the brightest crayon in the box, to say the least. no reason to argue with the guy. let him whine about how his rights to over leverage and gamble in a market he doesn't understand are being taken away.

great song by the way guy... LOL. It shows a reason why CFTC feels they need to babysit us. Did you listen to those lyrics? oh man that's f'n retarded.

my understanding is the stock market is not zero-sum, while futures and forex are.

so are you saying it depends on how your broker is operating which is the...
Well...... here's the DUMBASS again that thinks he can move the markets and take out everyone's stop loss. Wow.... it's George Soros in disguise.... teaching his little band of Students the Robin Hood Way.
Try to find intelligence from someone who has some and give it to those who you think are dumber than you are. Isn't that what you do.

Really, I think that's fairly impossible.
  • #628
  • Sep 25, 2010 11:42pm Sep 25, 2010 11:42pm
Quoting Chicky
Fully agree with TradeRunner.

Statement: Forex Trading is not a Zero Sum game for individual traders but a Zero (rather Minus Sum) Game only for sum total of all traders, provided brokers do not enter into the arena of jobbing.

Explanation: If brokers remain flat and earn their bread from spread/commission, there will always be a winner for every loser but that winner or loser not necessarily be one particular trader or a particular group of traders in one particular time period. Therefore, trading is not a zero sum game with reference...

One never considers individual traders or trades when deciding whether a market is zero sum... the whole point is to look at the sum of trades. The "market" itself is zero sum. Thats my opinion no more discussion needed idc lol. My main point about Runner's retardedness was him talking about job creation in a discussion about whether a market is zero sum or not. NO MARKET would be zero sum if you talked about that shit.
  • #629
  • Sep 25, 2010 11:47pm Sep 25, 2010 11:47pm
Quoting Deusomega
One never considers individual traders or trades when deciding whether a market is zero sum... the whole point is to look at the sum of trades. The "market" itself is zero sum.
Not for me or anyone I know.

Many people on these forums try to convince traders that it is a zero sum game without explaining for who it is zero sum game.

By the way, with brokers spread, it is not even a zero sum game, but a negative sum game if one is talking with reference to all traders.
The Thief of Wall Street
  • #630
  • Sep 25, 2010 11:48pm Sep 25, 2010 11:48pm
  •  Czech
  • | Joined Feb 2010 | Status: You Don't Know What You Don't Know | 111 Posts
Quoting TradeRunner
words
What you and your esteemed quotee fail to realize is that "negative sum" (or zero sum for that matter) does not imply a distribution of outcomes. It only says that the sum of winners and losers will be negative (or zero). Two traders trading with each other may both win, so what? As a result, two other traders were both losers, the sum of all positions was negative.

edit: whose definition was a coin toss?
  • #631
  • Sep 25, 2010 11:49pm Sep 25, 2010 11:49pm
Quoting Deusomega
One never considers individual traders or trades when deciding whether a market is zero sum... the whole point is to look at the sum of trades. The "market" itself is zero sum. Thats my opinion no more discussion needed idc lol. My main point about Runner's retardedness was him talking about job creation in a discussion about whether a market is zero sum or not. NO MARKET would be zero sum if you talked about that shit.
You are SOOOO retarded that you CANNOT read what I wrote.... THE DEFINITION WAS "A COIN TOSS.... 1 WINNER.... 1 LOSER" aside from all the other facts which are indeed arguable.... YOU CAN'T F*CKIn READ

You must have taken lessons from your Soros buddy
  • #632
  • Sep 25, 2010 11:52pm Sep 25, 2010 11:52pm
Quoting TradeRunner
First of all..... forex is NOT a zero-sum game. A zero-sum game is described as a "Heads-I Win, Tails-You Lose" game where there is only a winner and a loser.
Foreign Exchange cannot be described that way. It creates jobs (for one) through broker activity, etc., etc.
Stop acting like you didn't say it.
  • #633
  • Sep 25, 2010 11:55pm Sep 25, 2010 11:55pm
Quoting TradeRunner
Well...... here's the DUMBASS again that thinks he can move the markets and take out everyone's stop loss. Wow.... it's George Soros in disguise.... teaching his little band of Students the Robin Hood Way.
Try to find intelligence from someone who has some and give it to those who you think are dumber than you are. Isn't that what you do.

Really, I think that's fairly impossible.
LOL!!! In all seriousness, you're retarded and have no idea what your talking about. The perfect client for these brokers. I don't know when I claimed to take out everyone's stops you stupid bastard, but you have shit seriously twisted fool. I said I stop hunt, when you find out what that means then come talk shit.

You're the one spewing false information.

You have proved to everyone you're a moron. Have a great day....
  • #634
  • Sep 25, 2010 11:55pm Sep 25, 2010 11:55pm
Quoting Czech
What you and your esteemed quotee fail to realize is that "negative sum" (or zero sum for that matter) does not imply a distribution of outcomes. It only says that the sum of winners and losers will be negative (or zero). Two traders trading with each other may both win, so what?
Did I imply a distribution of outcome in the coin toss scenario. I thought I only implied.... winner..... loser
Let's start another thread for distribution of outcome/income and I'll start gathering information. Is that a done deal
  • #635
  • Sep 25, 2010 11:58pm Sep 25, 2010 11:58pm
Quoting TradeRunner
Did I imply a distribution of outcome in the coin toss scenario. I thought I only implied.... winner..... loser
Let's start another thread for distribution of outcome/income and I'll start gathering information. Is that a done deal
outcome/income???? huh??? what the hell is income doing in this context?
Stubbornly persistent
  • #636
  • Sep 26, 2010 12:01am Sep 26, 2010 12:01am
  •  Czech
  • | Joined Feb 2010 | Status: You Don't Know What You Don't Know | 111 Posts
I was referring to this.

Quoting traderunner
Does this mean that in the above scenario one party has to win, and one must lose? Not at all, in fact both traders can win or lose; perhaps one has entered a short-term trade and the other has entered a long-term trade. Perhaps the first trader will take a profit quickly, but there is no rule that states the second trader must close his trade at the same time. Later in the day, the price reverses, and the second trader takes his profit as well. In this scenario, the broker made money (on the spread) and both traders did, too. This destroys the oft-repeated fallacy that every Forex trade is a zero-sum game.
  • #637
  • Sep 26, 2010 12:03am Sep 26, 2010 12:03am
I have one simple question:

How may tequilas you guys have had? 1, 2, or 3?

Inserted Video
The Thief of Wall Street
  • #638
  • Sep 26, 2010 12:05am Sep 26, 2010 12:05am
Quoting Monroe
LOL!!! In all seriousness, you're retarded and have no idea what your talking about. The perfect client for these brokers. I don't know when I claimed to do that you stupid bastard, but you have shit seriously twisted fool.

Your the one spewing false information.

You have proved to everyone you're a moron. Have a great day....
THAT'S FUNNY !!!! If I remember correctly you were the one who was giving your Merry Little Band of Students (MLBS for short) a lecture about the benefits of maintaining a positive mental attitude and then you jumped on a thread and started calling me vulgar names.
I was so disappointed when I read that..... after all.... what were you're MLBS thinking of you tsk.... tsk
  • #639
  • Sep 26, 2010 12:09am Sep 26, 2010 12:09am
Quoting Chicky
I have one simple question:

How may tequilas you guys have had? 1, 2, or 3?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0rMkt3uB9c
CHICKY IS THE MAN !!!! GOTTA LOVE 'IM

Peace / Out (at least until someone pisses me off)

TR
  • #640
  • Sep 26, 2010 12:10am Sep 26, 2010 12:10am
Quoting TradeRunner
THAT'S FUNNY !!!! If I remember correctly you were the one who was giving your Merry Little Band of Students (MLBS for short) a lecture about the benefits of maintaining a positive mental attitude and then you jumped on a thread and started calling me vulgar names.
I was so disappointed when I read that..... after all.... what were you're MLBS thinking of you tsk.... tsk
What the hell are you talking about guy, actually what kind of shit are you smoking is a better question. lecture on what? you got the wrong guy. I was on a thread debating you gamblers complaining about rights and the need for 200:1 leverage. I was asking for one good reason for that need, and if you go back, YOU are the one who started the name calling, just like you did in this thread.

you can't fix dumb....
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