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MT4 Brokers' Virtual Dealer Plug-In

  • #581
  • Sep 20, 2010 5:40am Sep 20, 2010 5:40am
Quoting PipStar
I am well aware what a bucketshop is and I've been taking money from them for the past 5 years http://cdn.forexfactory.com/images/s.../yim/happy.gif.
Congratulations

Quoting PipStar
But I've got to say that the confusion is mostly on your side because you are assuming that an STP always routes to an ECN network. Sure, some STP's route to ECN brokers. But many brokers who claim to be STP are just middlemen brokers who route to market makers but these middlemen call themselves STP because they are passing trades through to someone else. Many of the STP's fall into this category.
Yes that is unfortunately true. It has become something of a marketing catchphrase with the brokers concerned using somewhat vague explanations of why they are STP or ECN while being nothing of the sort.

Quoting PipStar
And by the way if you read ECN brokers terms and conditions it states that the broker may at times be the counterparty to your trades thus at times matching trades and at other times acting as market maker.
I read through my ECN broker's conditions and they do not mention being a counterparty. Anyway, if they did act as a counterparty, they would no longer be an ECN. It would mean they are at least partly, a marketmaker which kind of defeats the purpose of ECN trading.
  • #582
  • Sep 20, 2010 5:44am Sep 20, 2010 5:44am
Quoting sriramsh
What I think is currently needed is a base line of the feed which can act as a comparison and a indicator in MT4 which compares the broker's feed with this base line feed and points out the % of fluctuation which will give a bigger picture about the broker real intentions and can be captured for showing proof while filing complaints.

Not sure how many of you agree with me...!!
While that would be a good idea in theory, which price would you accept as the baseline? Forex is not centralized like stock markets so there is no way to get a baseline. Each broker or marketplace whether Market Maker or part of an ECN network will often have different pricing than other brokers although usually "in the ballpark".
  • #583
  • Sep 20, 2010 7:16am Sep 20, 2010 7:16am
Quoting oakmonster
While that would be a good idea in theory, which price would you accept as the baseline? Forex is not centralized like stock markets so there is no way to get a baseline. Each broker or marketplace whether Market Maker or part of an ECN network will often have different pricing than other brokers although usually "in the ballpark".

Very true Oak... However there are forex data feeds whose only job is to provide accurate feeds for a decent low price from various exchanges like BATS etc which store into their own ticker plant, so those could act as a baseline for matching against the price with the broker pricing....

-SSH-
  • #584
  • Sep 20, 2010 8:48am Sep 20, 2010 8:48am
Quoting oakmonster
I read through my ECN broker's conditions and they do not mention being a counterparty. Anyway, if they did act as a counterparty, they would no longer be an ECN. It would mean they are at least partly, a marketmaker which kind of defeats the purpose of ECN trading.
I can't be bothered reading thru all ECN brokers terms and conditions but interestingly this was posted by FF member Kirman like a day ago in the Dukascopy thread and I copied and pasted it here:

Quote
15. conflicts of interests
The user understands that the business model of the SWFX Swiss Forex Marketplace consists in ensuring best execution for the transactions of the Users and matching the transactions between any of its Users or Counterparties, each trade being instantly hedged with a countertrade. In that respect, on the SWFX Swiss Forex Marketplace, Dukascopy is counterparty of each trade and counter trade, In some circumstances, Dukascopy may not hedge entirely or may not hedge at all certain trades, In such cases, Dukascopy may have opposite positions towards Users.
Unquote

I believe MB Trading also have a similar clause. Therefore ECN's may also act as market maker in some cases although I suspect they would do it to provide some liquidity in thin markets. But as you can see the role of ECN or STP is not as clear cut as they even sometimes are market makers in some way, shape or form. Some brokers are honest about this and put it in their terms and conditions, other brokers are just crap artists.
  • #585
  • Sep 20, 2010 10:03am Sep 20, 2010 10:03am
Quoting PipStar
Quote
15. conflicts of interests
The user understands that the business model of the SWFX Swiss Forex Marketplace consists in ensuring best execution for the transactions of the Users and matching the transactions between any of its Users or Counterparties, each trade being instantly hedged with a countertrade. In that respect, on the SWFX Swiss Forex Marketplace, Dukascopy is counterparty of each trade and counter trade, In some circumstances, Dukascopy may not hedge entirely or may not hedge at all certain trades, In such cases, [i][b]Dukascopy...
And again our quest to find the true ECN has failed. I go get a drink. Or two.
  • #586
  • Sep 20, 2010 10:56am Sep 20, 2010 10:56am
Quoting Acrita
And again our quest to find the true ECN has failed. I go get a drink. Or two.
I think at this point finding a true ECN is just not going to be possible since there is conflict of interest among every single broker and bottom line at the end of the day every one is around to make money, so instead what we need to do as forex traders is help each other to find some base line feed like Active Tick or Esignal (too costly) (there are other data feeds as well) which can be used to compare the % of slippage against the broker's feed using an MT4 indicator, that way imagine if all traders use this indicator to compare the feed, and they find that there is way too much slippage / spread change most of the times and junk the broker, then over a period of time, we can figure out true brokers who try to make money only with the spread/commissions but not play around with plugin's and sweep trader's account clean. This will also make broker's jittery if most traders switch to honest brokers.

Again not sure if anyone agrees with my approach...

-SSH-
  • #587
  • Sep 20, 2010 11:27am Sep 20, 2010 11:27am
Quoting sriramsh
I think at this point finding a true ECN is just not going to be possible since there is conflict of interest among every single broker and bottom line at the end of the day every one is around to make money, so instead what we need to do as forex traders is help each other to find some base line feed like Active Tick or Esignal (too costly) (there are other data feeds as well) which can be used to compare the % of slippage against the broker's feed using an MT4 indicator, that way imagine if all traders use this indicator to compare the feed, and...
Sounds fine, but too good to be true.
Besides, every broker will tell you that it's not responsible for someone else's quotes and to some extent they might even be right.

It'd be gr8 if there was a single quotes source to compare the quotes to, but it doesn't exist.

Now the good thing is that we still have FF and a number of other sites where we can share true unbiased experience about this or that broker. Make the experience public - that's what can prevent us from running into troubles with dishonest brokerages.
  • #588
  • Sep 20, 2010 12:03pm Sep 20, 2010 12:03pm
Quoting Acrita
Sounds fine, but too good to be true.
Besides, every broker will tell you that it's not responsible for someone else's quotes and to some extent they might even be right.

It'd be gr8 if there was a single quotes source to compare the quotes to, but it doesn't exist.
There may not be a "single" definitive source, but there are different levels. The rates at institutional currency markets like Currenex, Integral, HotSpot, FXAll, EBS and Reuters would be seen as the most definitive.

Dukascopy's rates move in half-pips, so I would say that their prices are manipulated.
  • #589
  • Sep 20, 2010 12:10pm Sep 20, 2010 12:10pm
Quoting PipStar
I can't be bothered reading thru all ECN brokers terms and conditions but interestingly this was posted by FF member Kirman like a day ago in the Dukascopy thread and I copied and pasted it here:

Quote
15. conflicts of interests
The user understands that the business model of the SWFX Swiss Forex Marketplace consists in ensuring best execution for the transactions of the Users and matching the transactions between any of its Users or Counterparties, each trade being instantly hedged with a countertrade. In that respect, on the SWFX Swiss...

pipstar ,

valuable info share to us on these thread.

Are u familiar with axistrader odl (australia) ? - stp that have more than 10 banks liquidity provider( sales trader told me phone). Have open account after submit documents but to have login /password mt4 account- compulsary to fund first only they release the information.

leverage are only 1:100 for start. for 200:1 have to evaluate by case.

Is there a different between gomarkets & axistrader odl?.
they claim that all clients are happy with them.

do they practice route to market makers for axistrader odl?

p/s: which broker u currrently with that good and is cool.

tks!
  • #590
  • Sep 20, 2010 9:37pm Sep 20, 2010 9:37pm
Hi, Melode. Both Axitrader and Go Markets claim to be STP and to be routing to banks. Axitrader are ok as long as you dont trade during news as they will fill end of spike just like Go Markets actually. But execution at Axitrader is fast and you can request 200-1 leverage straight away if you need it. For Go Markets many people have reported problems with delayed execution. Customer service is very good for both these brokers. I wish I could share with you a perfect broker but I am yet to find one.
  • #591
  • Sep 20, 2010 10:05pm Sep 20, 2010 10:05pm
Quoting PipStar
Hi, Melode. Both Axitrader and Go Markets claim to be STP and to be routing to banks. Axitrader are ok as long as you dont trade during news as they will fill end of spike just like Go Markets actually. But execution at Axitrader is fast and you can request 200-1 leverage straight away if you need it. For Go Markets many people have reported problems with delayed execution. Customer service is very good for both these brokers. I wish I could share with you a perfect broker but I am yet to find one.

Note: thanks mate.
  • #592
  • Edited 6:02pm Nov 9, 2010 5:49pm | Edited 6:02pm
BTW: Does anyone know if it is technically possible for a mt4 broker to see your ea or indicator etc? I am not talking of intent here - just the technical possibility if a broker really wanted to, could they view/ pull your indicator/ ea code?

thx for any info

I have started a new thread for this - please post your thoughts/ comments there:

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=264933
  • #593
  • Nov 10, 2010 6:27am Nov 10, 2010 6:27am
Quoting msood
BTW: Does anyone know if it is technically possible for a mt4 broker to see your ea or indicator etc? I am not talking of intent here - just the technical possibility if a broker really wanted to, could they view/ pull your indicator/ ea code?

thx for any info

I have started a new thread for this - please post your thoughts/ comments there:

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=264933
Brokers could see the name of the EA you're using, but they can't view/pull the code.

The EA is located on your hard drive so this would be saying the broker is browsing your computer files without your knowledge.

http://nathan-lee.com/blog/wp-conten...l_hat_area.jpg
  • #594
  • Nov 10, 2010 6:35am Nov 10, 2010 6:35am
I don't know much about brokers back end systems for obvious reasons, but a question for you all - The Virtual dealer plugin is obviously frowned upon, and is widely known about, but surely brokers with their own platforms will have more control. For example (and I am not saying anything about FXCM) FXCM have their own platform, so when it is configured they can have put in every rule under the sun to stop traders.

Whilst I am like you all horrified by stories of the plugin, I prefer this widely known system to potentially sneaky tactics of other brokers with private platforms.
  • #595
  • Edited 6:03pm Nov 10, 2010 7:31am | Edited 6:03pm
I have asked this question years ago and yes, I personally believe brokers CAN see the actual EA Codes we use.

We know brokers are there to steal (er make) money from us. One way is to see how our EA is doing and how they can kill it.

Of course brokers nor MetaTrader will deny they do this much like they have denied the existence.usage of Virtual Dealer Plugin.
  • #596
  • Nov 10, 2010 8:23pm Nov 10, 2010 8:23pm
Quoting BurgerKing
I have asked this question years ago and yes, I personally believe brokers CAN see the actual EA Codes we use.
Since EA code is run client side, how can a broker see the code without hacking into your PC? They can probably work out the strategy, but stealing the actual code falls into conspiracy theory territory
  • #597
  • Nov 10, 2010 9:49pm Nov 10, 2010 9:49pm
Quoting BurgerKing
I have asked this question years ago and yes, I personally believe brokers CAN see the actual EA Codes we use.

We know brokers are there to steal (er make) money from us. One way is to see how our EA is doing and how they can kill it.

Of course brokers nor MetaTrader will deny they do this much like they have denied the existence.usage of Virtual Dealer Plugin.
Thx fr you feedback folks - general consensus seems to be that there is nothing to fear from your broker at least in this regard - which is good.

For those interested: there are some more informative posts on the thread:
http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=264933
  • #598
  • Nov 10, 2010 10:24pm Nov 10, 2010 10:24pm
I've been testing several MT4 brokers ever since OCT 18 and this is what I have experienced and found out.

1.) Brokers can remove scripts from charts.

2.) brokers can turn off all EA functions without us receiving a Log file update.-this means that the broker can turn off our EA at any moment and pretend it was from a disconnect on our side. And, since the log file is not updated, we have little proof of any foul play. Even if we use an EA that detects disconnects, this will not help. They can simply "keep Us Connected" and turn off our trading functions. -

-Brokers also have the ability to "Expert Function is Disabled" (This was confirmed from a Broker)However, if the broker goes this route, we will have the update in the Log File and our journal.

3.) Close our open trades. I've had a broker close open trades before a momentum bursts. Two times in one night. I was able to watch the second position close with my own eyes.

4.) Delete profitable trades. Yep thats right. A broker can delete a trade from your history anytime they want.

5.) Server Disconnects, freezes, and more requotes.

as you already know:

Reqoute- Delayed Execution- Slippage.

If a Broker is honest, you will never experience a requote. If you really think that a broker is requoting you for your best interest or you really think that the broker can not fill your Position, then you should really do some research on liquidity.

After the CFTC regulations: CFTC states that all brokers trade against you and your orders never hit the real market anyways.
  • #599
  • Nov 11, 2010 9:18am Nov 11, 2010 9:18am
Quoting msood
Thx fr you feedback folks - general consensus seems to be that there is nothing to fear from your broker at least in this regard - which is good.

For those interested: there are some more informative posts on the thread:
http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=264933
General consensus 2 years ago also points that there is no Virtual Dealer Plugin, or it is harmless to traders.

Quoting oakmonster
Since EA code is run client side, how can a broker see the code without hacking into your PC? They can probably work out the strategy, but stealing the actual code falls into conspiracy theory territory http://cdn.forexfactory.com/images/s...im/winking.gif
It is true that EA are run client side. I absolutely DO NOT dispute this.
However, MT4 *can* have secret "back doors" wherein broker or Metatrader could syphon the EA out from the client platform. This is purely my speculation... Time will tell if this is true or not.

Many centuries ago, people believe that the world is FLAT and the EARTH is the center of the whole universe..... I sure dont live in that crappy olden days.

What I am saying is, I am keeping my mind open. It is possible.
  • #600
  • Nov 11, 2010 10:50am Nov 11, 2010 10:50am
Quoting msood
Thx fr you feedback folks - general consensus seems to be that there is nothing to fear from your broker at least in this regard - which is good.

For those interested: there are some more informative posts on the thread:
http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=264933

Quote:
Originally Posted by msood http://cdn.forexfactory.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
Hey Cogs, Moody, Oakmonster - thx for your feedback. Great info -

I think then we can put this one to bed (unless something else pops up) - the only thing we have to fear is ourselves and our EAs.

Happy trading.

BTW Cogs: is your EA a commercial one? I am game to try something that works even if it needs some tweaking from time to time.

I am a Network Engineer and I have worked with Software companies and QA departments. Brokers can see spitting image of what you are using. You dont think they script logs to send when your order goes to their dealing desks. If you dont think they cant see what you are running then you are terribly mis-informed.
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