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US citizens won't be able to have forex accounts overseas

  • #241
  • Aug 28, 2010 3:28pm Aug 28, 2010 3:28pm
Quoting pipmutt
I expected better from you. Grow up for goodness sake.....

I've already replied to the rest of your post in my other replies, either you didn't understand or you're just being obtuse, same diff to me.
LOL I knew it would be hard for you. Oh well.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #242
  • Aug 28, 2010 3:29pm Aug 28, 2010 3:29pm
Quoting The Fool
you don't really seem to understand what leverage is. have a look at the spreadsheet i posted. risk is risk, it has nothing to do with leverage. leverage is the broker's problem, not mine.
Exactly.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #243
  • Aug 28, 2010 3:30pm Aug 28, 2010 3:30pm
Quoting Forexia
So leverage is not really a "candy" for us; it's more like "butter" for us if trading capital can be thought of as our "bread". Since trading is our "bread and butter", it's no good having our butter taken away.
Whatever, dude. Nobody owes you any leverage, and it's not a "right" - so just be thankful you get whatever there is. Stock and options traders are still making money without high or any leverage. If you are serious enough (supposedly) to be trading for a living then you would rustle up the stake you need to keep doing so at reduced spot leverage, or go ahead and move on over to futures.
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #244
  • Aug 28, 2010 3:34pm Aug 28, 2010 3:34pm
he almost got me

Quoting The Fool
you don't really seem to understand what leverage is. have a look at the spreadsheet i posted. risk is risk, it has nothing to do with leverage. leverage is the broker's problem, not mine.
Annoying Precision
  • #245
  • Aug 28, 2010 3:34pm Aug 28, 2010 3:34pm
Quoting luckylady
It doesn't matter what your stop or risk percentage is, my point is would you be able to trade safely without coming close to margin call, because that is what people don't seem to be taking into account.

Take IBFX as an example, with a $ based account, to trade 5 mini lots (50k) on GBP/USD, at 100:1 leverage, to place that trade would take at the moment $750 of margin roughly. At 10:1 that becomes $7,500 of margin used. Your margin level would be hovering around 133%. At 100% a trader is using their entire available margin, not a very comfortable...
I couldn't agree with you more. 10:1 is WAY too low. I don't even know how they come up with ratio. I am actually interested to know what did they based this ratio and how did they arrive at this ratio? Did they actually study the Retail Forex industry or did they just pick that ratio out of a hat?
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #246
  • Aug 28, 2010 3:35pm Aug 28, 2010 3:35pm
Quoting luckylady

It doesn't matter what your stop or risk percentage is, my point is would you be able to trade safely without coming close to margin call, because that is what people don't seem to be taking into account.
Ok, there seems to be some fundamental misunderstanding here about what constitutes trading and what constitutes reckless gambling.

Stop, risk %, and ultimately trade size are primary elements of trading - risk management and money management are the first things that traders master if they expect longevity in this business. "Coming close to margin call" doesn't feature anywhere in any responsible trader's vocabulary, sorry.
  • #247
  • Aug 28, 2010 3:39pm Aug 28, 2010 3:39pm
Quoting pipmutt
It's not going to preclude anyone from trading, even if you've only got $10 you'll still be able to trade.

You're probably going to have to be a bit more realistic with your expected returns though!
As I pointed out a few posts back, nobody would be able to trade with $10 in an account, even 1 microlot 1 cent per pip, ($100 position) would take between $10 and $15 of margin just to place the trade let alone leave any room for drawdown, so no it wouldn't be possible, please do the maths.
  • #248
  • Aug 28, 2010 3:39pm Aug 28, 2010 3:39pm
Quoting The Fool

you don't really seem to understand what leverage is. have a look at the spreadsheet i posted. risk is risk, it has nothing to do with leverage. leverage is the broker's problem, not mine.
Doesn't quite answer the question though. You can't be leveraged say 50:1 and still claim to have 1% exposure to risk, do the math!

Unless you're saying you trade with a 2 pip stop?
  • #249
  • Aug 28, 2010 3:40pm Aug 28, 2010 3:40pm
The use of high leverage dosent equal reckless gambling. High leverage = High money when you learn how to trade

Quoting pipmutt
Ok, there seems to be some fundamental misunderstanding here about what constitutes trading and what constitutes reckless gambling.

Stop, risk %, and ultimately trade size are primary elements of trading - risk management and money management are the first things that traders master if they expect longevity in this business. "Coming close to margin call" doesn't feature anywhere in any responsible trader's vocabulary, sorry.
Annoying Precision
  • #250
  • Aug 28, 2010 3:41pm Aug 28, 2010 3:41pm
Quoting pipmutt
Ok, there seems to be some fundamental misunderstanding here about what constitutes trading and what constitutes reckless gambling.

Stop, risk %, and ultimately trade size are primary elements of trading - risk management and money management are the first things that traders master if they expect longevity in this business. "Coming close to margin call" doesn't feature anywhere in any responsible trader's vocabulary, sorry.
You are totally missing the point. You would class yourself as a conservative trader....yes? Yet I have just pointed out with your "conservative" trading, at the level you just said you would trade on a $10,000 account, as soon as you placed the trade you would be hovering close to margin call so maybe you'd better get it into your vocabulary.
  • #251
  • Aug 28, 2010 3:42pm Aug 28, 2010 3:42pm
Quoting luckylady
As I pointed out a few posts back, nobody would be able to trade with $10 in an account, even 1 microlot 1 cent per pip, ($100 position) would take between $10 and $15 of margin just to place the trade let alone leave any room for drawdown, so no it wouldn't be possible, please do the maths.
Ever heard of a bröker called Oanda? They're ideal for small accounts, you can trade from 1 unit thereby allowing you to manage your risk and your money with acceptable parameters, regardless of how little equity you have. That's trading!
  • #252
  • Aug 28, 2010 3:43pm Aug 28, 2010 3:43pm
I get it now. You just want someone to talk too. You should have just said so in the beginning

Quoting pipmutt
Doesn't quite answer the question though. You can't be leveraged say 50:1 and still claim to have 1% exposure to risk, do the math!

Unless you're saying you trade with a 2 pip stop?
Annoying Precision
  • #253
  • Aug 28, 2010 3:44pm Aug 28, 2010 3:44pm
Quoting The Fool
Whatever, dude. Nobody owes you any leverage, and it's not a "right" - so just be thankful you get whatever there is. Stock and options traders are still making money without high or any leverage. If you are serious enough (supposedly) to be trading for a living then you would rustle up the stake you need to keep doing so at reduced spot leverage, or go ahead and move on over to futures.
True but then again, it's not something that is "given" like "bestowing upon" the traders either. That's my point. It shouldn't be something that's for the government to give.

Like you said in one of your earlier post, leverage rates should be determined by the market. And I agree. Then it should be the brokers who decide which leverage rates to offer and IF CFTC really want to help them to ensure brokers don't operate in "high leverage casino model", they can set up some standards make brokers offer leverage rates that match their capital level.

For us traders, it's something that we just choose. Some traders like to trade with high leverage and some traders trade with lower leverage even with the same broker. So it's really our "rights to choose" that they are taking away.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #254
  • Aug 28, 2010 3:47pm Aug 28, 2010 3:47pm
Quoting Forexia
I couldn't agree with you more. 10:1 is WAY too low. I don't even know how they come up with ratio. I am actually interested to know what did they based this ratio and how did they arrive at this ratio? Did they actually study the Retail Forex industry or did they just pick that ratio out of a hat?
kitten, I'm sorry if I sounded mean to you. For the record, I wants my fat leverage to stay fat just like any sane player. I understand where the regulators are coming from, though. I am gonna go out on a limb and predict we will see a reduction from 100:1 down to 50:1. Oanda is doing well with it (they will say) - so should the rest of yous be able to.

50:1 is well workable, and if you can scratch out 20 pips a day you can make a living on a just $10k stake. 50 pips a day if you got kids in college, etc, etc
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #255
  • Aug 28, 2010 3:52pm Aug 28, 2010 3:52pm
Quoting pipmutt
Doesn't quite answer the question though. You can't be leveraged say 50:1 and still claim to have 1% exposure to risk, do the math!

Unless you're saying you trade with a 2 pip stop?
I trade at 0.2% of account per pip on a 5-pip sl for a 1% risk - that's as aggressive as I go. If I have been mentally worn out arguing with pipmutt I might have to back offa that to a 0.1% per pip risk & a 10-pip sl. I am mostly trying to trade short tf breakouts and if I am anything more than a few pips wrong I am out of a trade.

leverage is on the broker's books, not mine. If he wants to spot me 50:1 and I consistently win, well he has the losing 95% of traders to cover me.
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #256
  • Aug 28, 2010 3:53pm Aug 28, 2010 3:53pm
Quoting luckylady
You are totally missing the point. You would class yourself as a conservative trader....yes? Yet I have just pointed out with your "conservative" trading, at the level you just said you would trade on a $10,000 account, as soon as you placed the trade you would be hovering close to margin call so maybe you'd better get it into your vocabulary.
I'd be nowhere near a margin call, what are you talking about?

I wouldn't say I'm a particularly conservative trader, just a realistic one like most traders, the example I gave you of a 50k trade on a 10k account was around 1.75% risk.
  • #257
  • Aug 28, 2010 3:57pm Aug 28, 2010 3:57pm
well I have got a fun Saturday afternoon of emergency plumbing to do. I have to assume this conversation could and probably will go on forever. So I'll catch ya'll later.
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #258
  • Aug 28, 2010 4:08pm Aug 28, 2010 4:08pm
Quoting The Fool

I trade at 0.2% of account per pip on a 5-pip sl for a 1% risk - that's as aggressive as I go.
Get the party hats out, finally we got somewhere!

In that case you're 'only' leveraged 20:1, the transition down to 10:1 shouldn't be that devastating for you if/when it comes!

Like you say they'll most likely go for 50:1 first which should give you a bit of time to build up some equity to compensate if/when they reduce it further.

Agreed, leverage isn't usually a calculation that's important to us except when trying to demonstrate to traders like you that you're not actually much worse off by the proposed 100:1 to 10:1 reduction. It sounds dramatic at first but when you drill down it ain't so bad.


Quoting The Fool

well I have got a fun Saturday afternoon of emergency plumbing to do.
lol, have fun!
  • #259
  • Aug 28, 2010 4:09pm Aug 28, 2010 4:09pm
Quoting pipmutt
I'd be nowhere near a margin call, what are you talking about?

I wouldn't say I'm a particularly conservative trader, just a realistic one like most traders, the example I gave you of a 50k trade on a 10k account was around 1.75% risk.
I don't care what that risk is to your account, of the $10,000 account, at 10:1 leverage, as soon as you placed a 50k position, that would use $7,500 of margin if trading GBP/USD and your margin level would be 133%, as I've already pointed out, reduce it to 5:1 you wouldn't be able to even place that trade whatever the risk to your account is because you wouldn't have enough money in your account to do it, so to say that it only affects reckless traders is just not correct.
  • #260
  • Aug 28, 2010 4:18pm Aug 28, 2010 4:18pm
Quoting luckylady

I don't care what that risk is to your account
Obviously you do, you asked if I was a conservative trader, or did you tell me I was, can't remember now it was that long ago!


Quoting luckylady

reduce it to 5:1
Strewth that was quick, now it's 5:1, it was 10:1 half an hour ago!!!

Maybe I don't trade Cable, maybe I stick to USD/x pairs
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