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A couple of statements about the FX market

  • #1
  • First Post: Aug 25, 2010 10:31am Aug 25, 2010 10:31am
Hi

So ill make a few statements and if you like to talk about any of them, lets do. Ill state them in the order they are of importance to statements above.

1. There is no time in the market, only price.
1.2 Since there are no time, there really is no sideways movement, only up and down so to speak, price goes up, and it goes down.
1.3 Because there is no sideways movement, there is no trend.
1.3.1 Since there is no trend, one can not tell where price is going through looking at trends.

2. If 1 is true one must act without thinking in trend and sideways movement, since these things does not exist.
2.1 Instead of acting with trend in mind, one must guess where price will not go up or down anymore.
2.1.1 This can be accomplished in several different ways.
My signature is: "Classified".
  • #2
  • Aug 25, 2010 10:34am Aug 25, 2010 10:34am
Quoting yaed
Hi

So ill make a few statements and if you like to talk about any of them, lets do. Ill state them in the order they are of importance to statements above.

1. There is no time in the market, only price.
1.2 Since there are no time, there really is no sideways movement, only up and down so to speak, price goes up, and it goes down.
1.3 Because there is no sideways movement, there is no trend.
1.3.1 Since there is no trend, one can not tell where price is going through looking at trends.

2. If 1 is true one must act without thinking in trend...
However, the market is made up of people - all of whom are bound by time in some way or other, so time is a factor.
  • #3
  • Aug 25, 2010 10:49am Aug 25, 2010 10:49am
Quoting yaed
Hi

So ill make a few statements and if you like to talk about any of them, lets do. Ill state them in the order they are of importance to statements above.

1. There is no time in the market, only price.
1.2 Since there are no time, there really is no sideways movement, only up and down so to speak, price goes up, and it goes down.
1.3 Because there is no sideways movement, there is...
Time is a valid tool. You don't have to use it, but if you do you can use it to study sentiment. Many people successfully trade with one-dimensional charts like PnF and Renko using a different set of tools.

Sorry to be pragmatic, your philosophizing is noted.

Rob
  • #4
  • Aug 25, 2010 11:16am Aug 25, 2010 11:16am
  •  SwissRaj
  • | Joined Aug 2010 | Status: (¯`·._.· the lonely trader ·._.·´¯) | 109 Posts
It's interesting to notice that by using range bars, time disappears.

Still, time will be a factor for people participating in the market, but you can overlook it.
>>> psychology is more important than technicalities ^_^
  • #5
  • Aug 25, 2010 11:53am Aug 25, 2010 11:53am
1. There is no time in the market, only price.
Market charts are 2-dimensional (price vs time) which display continuity. But, for your philosophical rendition, let's assume there exists only price. One-dimensionality merely limits the information the charts tell you.
1.2 Since there are no time, there really is no sideways movement, only up and down so to speak, price goes up, and it goes down.
1.3 Because there is no sideways movement, there is no trend.
You don't need sideways movement to indicate a trend. You need up/down. If a pair moves up for a period of time more then it moves down, the trend is up. Regardless, trend is defined by the parameters time and price...you can't exclude time in step 1 and then include a definition in your proof which now doesn't apply.
1.3.1 Since there is no trend, one can not tell where price is going through looking at trends.
Despite what I said before, the trend affects investor spending because as noted earlier, time is inherent in all of us, countries, corporations, banks, etc...It's universal.

2. If 1 is true one must act without thinking in trend and sideways movement, since these things does not exist.
2.1 Instead of acting with trend in mind, one must guess where price will not go up or down anymore.
Random walks in price movement aren't correlated with charts because randomness isn't prevalent. Merely guessing where a price will move won't do you any good. If you meant 'guess' as being able to predict with >50% probability based on price levels, look at any higher timeframe chart. You'll see that prices have been moving down or up against certain pairs for decades -what indication of trend cessation can you use?
2.1.1 This can be accomplished in several different ways.
Explain.
  • #6
  • Aug 25, 2010 11:54am Aug 25, 2010 11:54am
Quoting DanUK
However, the market is made up of people - all of whom are bound by time in some way or other, so time is a factor.
What if its not, just try thinking that way and see what happens?
My signature is: "Classified".
  • #7
  • Aug 25, 2010 11:56am Aug 25, 2010 11:56am
Quoting Rob Mondave
Time is a valid tool. You don't have to use it, but if you do you can use it to study sentiment. Many people successfully trade with one-dimensional charts like PnF and Renko using a different set of tools.

Sorry to be pragmatic, your philosophizing is noted.

Rob
Well no i dont think you have to use it, in fact i think it does not exist. I can try to explain what i mean below.
My signature is: "Classified".
  • #8
  • Aug 25, 2010 12:06pm Aug 25, 2010 12:06pm
Quoting sqrt(-1)
1. There is no time in the market, only price.
Market charts are 2-dimensional (price vs time) which display continuity. But, for your philosophical rendition, let's assume there exists only price. One-dimensionality merely limits the information the charts tell you.

Yes lets asume that, lets jus look at the one dimensionality of a chart or something like that.

1.2 Since there are no time, there really is no sideways movement, only up and down so to speak, price goes up, and it goes down.
1.3 Because there is no sideways...
By the way, i love that fractal you got there. Nature makes beautiful things, we hurt ourselves if we dont stop to look at it. Hmm quote to large.
My signature is: "Classified".
  • #9
  • Aug 25, 2010 12:07pm Aug 25, 2010 12:07pm
Quoting yaed
What if its not, just try thinking that way and see what happens?
But it is. Markets are fundamentally driven. However, I am open to suggestion and would like to hear your thoughts on why time is not a factor.
  • #10
  • Edited 12:14pm Aug 25, 2010 12:09pm | Edited 12:14pm
Without time, there is no history and thus no charts.

This may leave order flow, if you only pay attention to most recent order's size etc. This'd mean including volume.
News may work if, in your alternate reality, one is allowed to compare it with concurrent news.
Even the latest price with a given range to measure it in is possible.

Just trying to figure where you're going with this.
  • #11
  • Aug 25, 2010 12:14pm Aug 25, 2010 12:14pm
Quoting DanUK
But it is. Markets are fundamentally driven. However, I am open to suggestion and would like to hear your thoughts on why time is not a factor.
Well what if price is too high or too low? I guess one or the other, and for that i use some simple equations, thats what we all do when we trade.

I think that time is not here, not there, not past, not future. Why? Because what ever happend before now exist now just as much as now exist. Otherwise i would not have to worry about paying taxes, someone decided i need to, in the so called past. But because i have to pay taxes now the past exist today.

Another example: John F Kennedy was assasinated by someone. We live in that reality, the same feelings/thinking that got him killed have reprecussions in the so called today, doesnt it?

So we live in the past, or we live in now which is the past. And when we act we are taking ourselves into what we create. But what we create does not exist, until we create it, so the future doesnt really exist either.
My signature is: "Classified".
  • #12
  • Aug 25, 2010 12:15pm Aug 25, 2010 12:15pm
Quoting ha-pattern

Just trying to figure where you're going with this.
I dont know where i am going with this, i dont have an agenda with anything, i dont really want anything special, im just alive
My signature is: "Classified".
  • #13
  • Edited 12:43pm Aug 25, 2010 12:30pm | Edited 12:43pm
1. There is no time in the market, only price.

R Market charts are 2-dimensional (price vs time) which display continuity. But, for your philosophical rendition, let's assume there exists only price. One-dimensionality merely limits the information the charts tell you.

A Yes lets asume that, lets jus look at the one dimensionality of a chart or something like that.

1.2 Since there are no time, there really is no sideways movement, only up and down so to speak, price goes up, and it goes down.
1.3 Because there is no sideways movement, there is no trend.

R You don't need sideways movement to indicate a trend. You need up/down. If a pair moves up for a period of time more then it moves down, the trend is up. Regardless, trend is defined by the parameters time and price...you can't exclude time in step 1 and then include a definition in your proof which now doesn't apply.

A Clumsy statement i admit. I ment that if there is no time there can be no movement sideways, im not talking about proof here. I cant prove time, nor can i disprove it, its like disproving something like God, cant be done, to "mysterious".

1.3.1 Since there is no trend, one can not tell where price is going through looking at trends.

R Despite what I said before, the trend affects investor spending because as noted earlier, time is inherent in all of us, countries, corporations, banks, etc...It's universal.

A What if it dont, i mean what if we stop thinking like that?

2. If 1 is true one must act without thinking in trend and sideways movement, since these things does not exist.
2.1 Instead of acting with trend in mind, one must guess where price will not go up or down anymore.

R Random walks in price movement aren't correlated with charts because randomness isn't prevalent. Merely guessing where a price will move won't do you any good. If you meant 'guess' as being able to predict with >50% probability based on price levels, look at any higher timeframe chart. You'll see that prices have been moving down or up against certain pairs for decades -what indication of trend cessation can you use?

A Yes i agree that price is not random, and there is no use in trading if it was a 50/50 afair, im not saying it is, im just saying that we are guessing. The only time we are not guessing is if we are certain, and our certainty prove to be true. I mean doesnt matter what system you use, you arent 100% right all the time, so you guess in some way.

2.1.1 This can be accomplished in several different ways.

R Explain.

A Well all indicators and all S/R lines and everything like that is just ways of guessing that others are guessing the same as you. Or you are counterguessing or something like that, trying to react to theyre guessings and so on.
My signature is: "Classified".
  • #14
  • Aug 25, 2010 12:57pm Aug 25, 2010 12:57pm
Quoting yaed
1. There is no time in the market, only price.

R Market charts are 2-dimensional (price vs time) which display continuity. But, for your philosophical rendition, let's assume there exists only price. One-dimensionality merely limits the information the charts tell you.

A Yes lets asume that, lets jus look at the one dimensionality of a chart or something like that.

1.2 Since there are no time, there really is no sideways movement, only up and down so to speak, price goes up, and it goes down.
1.3 Because there is no sideways movement, there...


I agree, there won't be any "sideways" movement because you've eliminated the axis of time. Therefore, only up/down.
But...what about 1.3? No time means no trend, or are you redefining time now as a duration between price levels? Time exists, it is relative. It is a part of our universal nature and it's manipulation has been proven before.

I think I understand what you've been trying to get at. Take a chart, remove time, plot the price levels on a one-dimensional chart and only watch prices move. But time doesn't stop, we all know that, so the duration is between changes in price levels (perhaps indicated by intervals and not exact time itself). As this chart changes we can make guesses on where it will change based on historic changes in price movement with ignoring "time" as we currently see on 2D charts. So instead of analyzing rates of change with respect to time, we analyze only the price level and ignore how long it may take to run the way we want it to.

Is this the trading method you're implying? If so, some people see the charts like this and trade accordingly. Yet, time is still more important then you think -it brings the prices to these levels.
  • #15
  • Aug 25, 2010 1:15pm Aug 25, 2010 1:15pm
Quoting sqrt(-1)


I agree, there won't be any "sideways" movement because you've eliminated the axis of time. Therefore, only up/down.
But...what about 1.3? No time means no trend, or are you redefining time now as a duration between price levels? Time exists, it is relative. It is a part of our universal nature and it's manipulation has been proven before.

[color=DarkOliveGreen]I think I understand what you've been trying to get at. Take a chart, remove time, plot...
Yes exactly, thats how i trade. Well its because people think in time that things work the way they do. If they didnt think like that id never be able to reach my takeprofits. I mean i really only need to se one candle in order to trade, i have the others for fun, it looks kinda cool, something to look at while i wait.
My signature is: "Classified".
  • #16
  • Aug 25, 2010 5:02pm Aug 25, 2010 5:02pm
Time is supremely important. Where an exchange rate goes from timepoint A to timepoint B is the only thing that can make you money. Try and think otherwise all you want, it won't get you anywhere.
Open to new approaches.
  • #17
  • Aug 26, 2010 4:48am Aug 26, 2010 4:48am
Quoting yaed
Well what if price is too high or too low?
There's no such thing as too high/low -- overbought/oversold. Price is only relative.
  • #18
  • Aug 26, 2010 4:55am Aug 26, 2010 4:55am
  •  SwissRaj
  • | Joined Aug 2010 | Status: (¯`·._.· the lonely trader ·._.·´¯) | 109 Posts
Quoting MetaCoder
Time is supremely important.
Actually it is not.

Time is supremely relative.

Of course it is important since human beings are not eternal.

But maybe you want to have a look to this article: http://www.futuresmag.com/Issues/200...ange-bars.aspx
>>> psychology is more important than technicalities ^_^
  • #19
  • Aug 26, 2010 6:12am Aug 26, 2010 6:12am
Quoting MetaCoder
TTry and think otherwise all you want, it won't get you anywhere.
Exactly.

Charts are just mass psychology/emotion.

Emotion is somewhat measurable
  • #20
  • Aug 26, 2010 6:19am Aug 26, 2010 6:19am
Of course there is time. But the issue is, time isn't even a constant factor.

As in, time can accelerate or decelerate. So we must take that into account.
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