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US citizens won't be able to have forex accounts overseas

  • #61
  • Aug 25, 2010 3:12am Aug 25, 2010 3:12am
Quoting Forexia
Well for that, you have Wannatradefx to blame. He's the one who got me started.
lol

No it's good, you present a coherent argument it's just I don't happen to agree with it (some of it is a bit 'out there' though )

Quoting Forexia
We rarely really need to curse at our country's leader but would you like Congress to pass a law tomorrow to explicitly forbid it? No. Why? Because that's infringing on how we live and how we talk. Even though we don't use a lot of things but we still don't want those to be taken away from us.
Our lives are already controlled and restricted by legislation, agreed some of it is bureaucratic nonsense but in the main I think it's effective in protecting other freedoms and maintaining a reasonably civilized society. Using your example, yes I can curse at your country's leader but I can't use the n word. Freedom tempered with civility, sounds fair to me.

Quoting Forexia
They are chipping away at the Retail Forex Industry one piece at a time.
You see it as chipping away at your rights whereas I see it as making the market more accountable and bringing it in line with other markets. To be honest I can't really see any problem with the new/proposed rules (although I think they've got their priorities wrong), I'd like to see them do more to protect market participants, hopefully they will.

Quoting Forexia
Stopping this regulations is not just stopping this one; it's sending a messsage to those fat cats "Do something constructive with your time and budget or F--- off!!"
That's the point, you won't stop it. Not enough people care, it doesn't affect them or their trading. Traders will carry on trading, brokers will carry on brokering, Uncle Sam will get his tax dollar......it's just another day at the office, in practical terms nothing really changed.
  • #62
  • Aug 25, 2010 3:15am Aug 25, 2010 3:15am
Quoting wannatradefx
Pipmutt-

I agree with everything you're saying. 100%. Nice to have someone that gets this on these boards.
Ditto!
  • #63
  • Edited 3:46am Aug 25, 2010 3:19am | Edited 3:46am
Quoting shrike
I dont think such general statements are very helpful, nor accurate. For example, the EuroFX future has ~40:1 overnight margin, intraday usually much more (depending on firm). Even higher leverage is applied with the index contracts. Limiting spot to 10:1 while the CME can contiune to apply SPAN margins with 40:1 and more would be one-sided favouritism in my opinion. While i agree that requirements like 200:1 or even 100:1 are sort of stupid, there should still be comparable margining across fx products within nfa/sec/cftc oversight. Everything...
Good point, and apparently their first target is likely to be 50:1, perhaps they'll leave it there. Not forgetting that spot is OTC, maybe they think that needs compensating for with leverage reduced below exchange-traded instruments?

But even at 10:1 would it really affect day-to-day trading for the majority?

-
  • #64
  • Aug 25, 2010 10:54am Aug 25, 2010 10:54am
Quoting Forexia
They are chipping away at the Retail Forex Industry one piece at a time. Today, with this new rule, like you said, they are just making the small Retail Forex brokers lose a portion of business. Tomorrow, they will aim at another aspect of the Retail Forex business.
Quoting pipmutt
You see it as chipping away at your rights whereas I see it as making the market more accountable and bringing it in line with other markets.
I said they are chipping away at the Retail Forex Industry one piece at a time, not just our rights. Retail Forex Industry is unique in its own way. Why is it we have to be "in line" with the other markets? This proposal is impacting the Retail Forex Industry where it shouldn't be. And it's just a start. That's how they destroyed the Daytrading Stock market by raising the initial deposit to a ridiculous high amount and it killed that industry and now they are doing it to Retail Forex market. This is my concern.

This proposal is doing two things.

1) Infringing on our choices of how and what we trade as individual traders which I have discussed in length in my previous posts and will discuss in my next post again.

2) Harming the Retail Forex Industry as a whole
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #65
  • Aug 25, 2010 10:57am Aug 25, 2010 10:57am
Quoting pipmutt
Good point, and apparently their first target is likely to be 50:1, perhaps they'll leave it there. Not forgetting that spot is OTC, maybe they think that needs compensating for with leverage reduced below exchange-traded instruments?

But even at 10:1 would it really affect day-to-day trading for the majority?

-
Why is there a need for control of margin? Yes, it would affect day-to-day trading for the majority. We are already stuck with limit of margins in other markets, yes, but it is REALLY necessary to bring it to Retail Forex Industry too? Since Wannatradefx brought up the possibility of trading with 1000:1 leverage, let's think outside of the box and entertain that idea a little bit, why can't we trade with 1000:1 leverage, 10000:1 leverage? Is it REALLY going to be THAT wrong trading with high leverage? Is it really that irritating to see some zeros in the margin rates? How about no margin and we all go back to the old days of exchanging currencies via bank deposits? Is that enough to keep people out of trouble? You know, if people are stupid or lazy enough to land in trouble because they decide to take on things they barely understand, they will land in trouble regardless of margin rates. Is it really up to some "out-to-lunch" bureaucrats to pass some laws to make the majority of us suffer while "protecting" some idiots who really don't belong in the Forex market in the first place? We can only do so much to help each other out, but you DO have to be self-dilligent.

Why can't they leave margin rates alone and think of some more effective regulations if they really want to help out the Retail Forex Industry? And btw pipmutt, traders do care about other traders. We might not share everything we know or our trading system, but we do want our fellow traders to succeed. This is why and how this Forum exists.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #66
  • Aug 25, 2010 11:35am Aug 25, 2010 11:35am
Quoting Forexia
Why is there a need for control of margin? Yes, it would affect day-to-day trading for the majority. We are already stuck with limit of margins in other markets, yes, but it is REALLY necessary to bring it to Retail Forex Industry too? Since Wannatradefx brought up the possibility of trading with 1000:1 leverage, let's think outside of the box and entertain that idea a little bit, why can't we trade with 1000:1 leverage, 10000:1 leverage? Is it REALLY going to be THAT wrong trading with high leverage? Is it really that irritating to see some zeros...
  • #67
  • Aug 25, 2010 11:38am Aug 25, 2010 11:38am
Quoting Forexia

Harming the Retail Forex Industry as a whole
The wild-west retail forex industry is mostly responsible for it's own bad reputation, now it looks like their fun's over, the sheriff's in town!

Mention trading retail forex to some traders and they'll laugh at you! Just look at some of the regulatory action taken against some of the big names in forex, it's truly disgraceful!

Whatever the (ulterior?) motives are for this sudden surge in regulation it's happened/happening and it's long overdue in my opinion. The changes simply won't negatively affect the majority of traders so it's all upside.


Quoting Forexia
And btw pipmutt, traders do care about other traders. We might not share everything we know or our trading system, but we do want our fellow traders to succeed. This is why and how this Forum exists.
Oh come on, seriously?

Sure we'll help each other out here and there but do we really care what happens to other anonymous traders? We read of someone suffering big losses or blowing up and the first thing we think about is thank goodness it wasn't us! We'll then find out what they did/didn't do to cause the loss so we can avoid making the same mistakes and then we'll offer some basic advice and a few meaningless platitudes, thinking to ourselves how we never want to feel like that poor schmuck must be feeling! And stories of success are usually met with disbelief, suspicion, or jealousy! Care about other traders? The heck we do!
  • #68
  • Aug 25, 2010 2:53pm Aug 25, 2010 2:53pm
Quoting pipmutt
The wild-west retail forex industry is mostly responsible for it's own bad reputation, now it looks like their fun's over, the sheriff's in town!

Mention trading retail forex to some traders and they'll laugh at you! Just look at some of the regulatory action taken against some of the big names in forex, it's truly disgraceful!
Sheriff is in town? Yeah right. If they REALLY want to play the "Sheriff"? Why don't they enact some real laws to protect us "villagers" for a change instead of trying to pass this joke of "regulation" to limit us traders on what we can and cannot do? What's wrong with trading in Retail Forex? What's there to laugh at? The only difference betwen "Retail" Forex and "Interbank" Forex is because "Interbank" Forex has deeper pockets. We traders in "Retail" Forex are doing exactly the same thing as the "Interbank" Forex traders, trying to make a buck and it's actually Retail Forex with its high leverage that allowed us, average "schmucks" who have little money a chance to make it. It's not our problem that there are bad apples in the industry that gives the industry a bad name.

And besides there are unscrupulous and dishonest brokers, dealers and investment managers in every single segments of the investment industry. Just look at Bernard Madoff, Earl Jones (in Canada), the Charles Keaton Savings and Loans Scandal (even the President of US was involved), just to name a few. I don't see them getting laughed at. Why? I know, perhaps because they are not poor?

Quoting pipmutt
Whatever the (ulterior?) motives are for this sudden surge in regulation it's happened/happening and it's long overdue in my opinion. The changes simply won't negatively affect the majority of traders so it's all upside.
And yes, this proposal does impact everybody in the industry negatively for reasons that I have stated in all of my previous posts and I will not repeat here. And there are so many other more effective "regulations" that they could pass but they chose not to do so. As for the sudden surge? Well, they want Retail Forex out. They want the Forex market to be reserved for the "old boys' club". Am I the only person who sees this?


Quoting pipmutt
Sure we'll help each other out here and there but do we really care what happens to other anonymous traders? We read of someone suffering big losses or blowing up and the first thing we think about is thank goodness it wasn't us! We'll then find out what they did/didn't do to cause the loss so we can avoid making the same mistakes and then we'll offer some basic advice and a few meaningless platitudes, thinking to ourselves how we never want to feel like that poor schmuck must be feeling! And stories of success are usually met with disbelief, suspicion,...
The reactions to another fellow trader's success and failure are normal human emotion. When one sees someone else in the office who got a promotion, one gets a little jealous and envy and blah blah. And when one sees another co-worker fired, one feels relieved that he/she is not in that person's shoes. That's all normal reactions because we are human but that doesn't mean that we won't care about them. Why should it be different just because we are traders?

Then again, everybody is different, but I think I can speak for most of the traders, that we do want another trader to succeed. We won't go to the extend of going to their home doing laundry for them or sharing our trading system (and actually a lot of people do) but we feel bad when we hear stories of another "fallen" trader. Because we have all gone through the same frustration and pain of starting our trading business and still go through the hardships of making a buck everyday so when we see somebody who's made it, we feel "Wow! Someone's made it! That means it is possible and someday it might be me! Awesome! Good for them!" And somebody has failed and lost on their account, we feel bad "Oh no! Well been there, done that. It's shitty." We are all in this together.

Then again, that's me. Like I said, everybody is different.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #69
  • Aug 25, 2010 2:56pm Aug 25, 2010 2:56pm
This discussion is getting my post count way high!!
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #70
  • Edited Aug 30, 2010 3:15pm Aug 25, 2010 4:39pm | Edited Aug 30, 2010 3:15pm
Quoting Forexia

What's wrong with trading in Retail Forex? What's there to laugh at? The only difference betwen "Retail" Forex and "Interbank" Forex is because "Interbank" Forex has deeper pockets. We traders in "Retail" Forex are doing exactly the same thing as the "Interbank" Forex traders
No offence but your naivity and ignorance appears to know no bounds!

What I said in the other thread (which I'm unable to post in for some reason??) was that some traders laugh when you mention trading retail forex, nothing to do with 'interbank' or 'deep pockets'!

Does OTC mean anything to you?


Quoting Forexia

It's not our problem that there are bad apples in the industry that gives the industry a bad name.
Not our problem? Well it seems to be your problem, you're moaning about new regulations and bleating about loss of your freedom of choice!


Quoting Forexia

And yes, this proposal does impact everybody in the industry negatively for reasons that I have stated in all of my previous posts and I will not repeat here.
I trade forex and it doesn't impact me, nor other traders I've spoken to, the only ones who seem ruffled by the whole issue are the underfunded overleveraged novices trying to make ridiculous returns with a couple thousand dollar accounts!


Quoting Forexia

As for the sudden surge? Well, they want Retail Forex out. They want the Forex market to be reserved for the "old boys' club".
lol, whatever you've been reading you've misunderstood it, either that or there's someone else who's equally as challenged as you seem to be!


Quoting Forexia

Then again, that's me. Like I said, everybody is different.
Yes, fortunately!
  • #71
  • Aug 25, 2010 5:11pm Aug 25, 2010 5:11pm
Quoting pipmutt
No offence but your naivity and ignorance appears to know no bounds!

What I said in the other thread (which I'm unable to post in for some reason??) was that some traders laugh when you mention trading retail forex, nothing to do with 'interbank' or 'deep pockets'!

Does OTC mean anything to you?
I still don't and I am sure majority of us traders who read this post, don't get what's so funny to laugh at Retail Forex. Spot Forex IS an OTC market because there is no organized exchanges but that's just how the market is. And that's so funny about that? Those bureaucrats want to do something about it? Start with sponsoring, as I have said in my previous post, Island Orderbook like stock trading so we get bit of market transperancies but all trading parties can still remain anonymous.

Quoting pipmutt
Not our problem? Well it seems to be your problem, you're moaning about new regulations and bleating about loss of your freedom of choice!
The problems in the Retail Forex Industry is NOT with traders; it's with those unscrupulous and dishonest brokers who set up scams to con people out their money and then disappear. These are the crooks that CFTC and NFA are supposed to go after. Where are the laws to persecute these crooks? Where are the regulations that compensate victims of those scams? Where are the registration requirements that could've prevented and stopped those so-called brokers from scamming in the first place? They are not willing or cannot do anything about it, that's fine. Don't turn around and come up with some BS propposal that target us traders and limit us in how and how much we can or cannot trade and still under the pretence of "protecting individual investors".

Quoting pipmutt
I trade forex and it doesn't impact me, nor other traders I've spoken to, the only ones who seem ruffled by the whole issue are the underfunded overleveraged novices trying to make ridiculous returns with a couple thousand dollar accounts!
Well, that's the whole point of high leverage. It gives the "underfunded" average people a chance. We are not all Paris Hilton's who are born with Billion Dollar inheritance. And there are people who have made it with small account size but utilized high leverages. You haven't met them obviously, I have. It is doable. It all depends on how you trade. But all in all, this is not up to some bureaucrats to decide how much I have to put into my account to start with and how much I can invest. Forex is a unique market; it needs high leverage.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #72
  • Aug 25, 2010 5:16pm Aug 25, 2010 5:16pm
Quoting Forexia
I still don't and I am sure majority of us traders who read this post, don't get what's so funny to laugh at Retail Forex. Spot Forex IS an OTC market because there is no organized exchanges but that's just how the market is. And what's so funny about that?.......
lol, I give up, seriously I do!

Forexia, good trading to you!
  • #73
  • Aug 25, 2010 5:32pm Aug 25, 2010 5:32pm
Quoting pipmutt
lol, I give up, seriously I do!

Forexia, good trading to you!
You too!
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #74
  • Aug 25, 2010 6:55pm Aug 25, 2010 6:55pm
Just skimmed thru, seemed like a lot of back-and-forth nonsense, didn't waste time reading it. Why exactly is this thread entitled "us citizens will no longer be able to have forex accounts overseas"?
  • #75
  • Aug 25, 2010 7:34pm Aug 25, 2010 7:34pm
Quoting Trader KGB
Just skimmed thru, seemed like a lot of back-and-forth nonsense, didn't waste time reading it. Why exactly is this thread entitled "us citizens will no longer be able to have forex accounts overseas"?
It's a continuation from a previous thread of the same name. For some reason, pipmutt was not able to post in the previous thread so he continued the discussion by starting this one. You can see the full discussion in the other thread.

The title is referring to this new proposal by the CFTC and NFA to further their efforts in imposing a 10:1 mandatory leverage on all Retail Forex brokers in US. Because many US Retail Forex brokers tried to go around this proposed mandatory 10:1 leverage by going overseas, so the watchdog body came up with this new rule that for any Retail Forex brokers overseas or domestic to accept clients of US citizenship, they must be registered with CFTC and NFA and vice versa, for any US citizens who want to trade Forex, they must go with a US-registered brokers.

The proposal has been presented since Jan. of this year and have received overwhelmingly negative response from the trading community, the highest response ever received by the NFA to a proposal. But it could still become law and it would be this fall, if it does. So I guess the renewed discussion.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #76
  • Aug 25, 2010 7:37pm Aug 25, 2010 7:37pm
Quoting Forexia
for any US citizens who want to trade Forex, they must go with a US-registered brokers.
I didn't see this specific clause in the bill, and it would be nearly impossible to legally enforce.
  • #77
  • Aug 25, 2010 10:05pm Aug 25, 2010 10:05pm
Quoting Trader KGB
I didn't see this specific clause in the bill, and it would be nearly impossible to legally enforce.
It's not in the proposal per se but it is somewhere in the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #78
  • Aug 25, 2010 10:33pm Aug 25, 2010 10:33pm
Quoting Forexia
It's not in the proposal per se but it is somewhere in the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act.
I don't think it matters what act or bill or regulation it is in (requiring US citizens to use US regulated brokers). there is not a court in the land that will uphold such a law. It is clearly unconstitutional by any standard.

The bureaucrats pass unconstitutional laws all the time, even voters....and judges routinely throw them out.

of course these days they are appointing judges to the supreme court without even basic traffic court experience, so none of this may be relevant any more.
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  • #79
  • Aug 25, 2010 11:28pm Aug 25, 2010 11:28pm
Quoting BarrySDCA
I don't think it matters what act or bill or regulation it is in (requiring US citizens to use US regulated brokers). there is not a court in the land that will uphold such a law. It is clearly unconstitutional by any standard.

The bureaucrats pass unconstitutional laws all the time, even voters....and judges routinely throw them out.

of course these days they are appointing judges to the supreme court without even basic traffic court experience, so none of this may be relevant any more.
If you think that's unconsitutional, the really unconstitutional one is the proposal to cap margin from 100:1 to 10:1 for Retail Forex. That's outrageous. You can reall all of the discussions about it in the previous thread by the same name in the "Brokers Discussion" forum.

You should see the comments received by CFTC from traders all over the world opposing this. I just visited their website. The stupid SOB's didn't even publish my comment that I sent to them during the public comment period. I wonder how many they omitted. They supposedly received over 7,000 comments all opposing this proposal, the highest response that they have ever received on any proposal.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #80
  • Edited Aug 26, 2010 12:06am Aug 25, 2010 11:50pm | Edited Aug 26, 2010 12:06am
Quoting Forexia
It's not in the proposal per se but it is somewhere in the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act.
Somewhere? Why don't you directly quote it, because I'm calling your bluff on this.

The US gov't cannot restrict its citizens from wiring money to a foreign institution with the intent to do business, there would be an uproar if they even tried. Sure they can force the foreign brokers to register here if they want to do business, but not the other way around (force citizens not to do business with them).
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