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  • #1,301
  • Jul 14, 2010 2:38am Jul 14, 2010 2:38am
even when trend is down?

cheers,
bethel

Quoting malcolmb14
reversal versus retrace

aj popped back above 75 here on the daily with 2 up bars , up bars typically happen in threes , so we can expect another up day tomorrow ... so based on this will look to buy any dips thru asia / london.

i will be looking fior ANY reatrces in to 75 and some form of stopping vol , lv test / shake out in that area. on a 15 / 30 min chart

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  • #1,302
  • Jul 14, 2010 3:26am Jul 14, 2010 3:26am
Quoting mud3210
Hi HiddenGap (or anybody who can advice),
when you mentioned higher-high, do you mean the top (body) of the candle is higher than the previous top (body) of the candle?
Higher high than the previous candle/bar's high. Lower low than the previous candle/bar's low.

Quoting mud3210
...you mentioned "I do not like No demands that make lower lows and not higher high".. then u said it's becoz if the market closes higher the No demand is not confirmed.. it does not make sense to me.... is there a typo error?
No Demand is not confirmed unless the next candle/bar closes down.

A No Demand that makes a lower low and not a higher high, a "selling bar", is only a No Demand if it is confirmed by the next candle/bar being down. The problem is if the next candle/bar closes up, then you have just seen a hidden test.

So what you would actually be looking at is a hidden test that fails if the close is down, which is a sign of weakness. We just call it No Demand.

There is no such thing as a hidden test for no demand. Testing is ALWAYS about supply. You might as well call a "test" a "search". That is what the BBs are doing. They are searching for sellers/supply becuase prices cannot rise if there is supply (resistance) ready to hit the market. If the BBs don't find any supply, then the volume will be low and the close will be high in the range. The close in relation to the previous close will be down.

A hidden test has the same action but the close is up from the previous candle/bar. That's why it is termed hidden. The strength is hidden as most of the time when strength appears it appears on down candles/bars.
Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #1,303
  • Jul 14, 2010 3:38am Jul 14, 2010 3:38am
Quoting HiddenGap
Higher high than the previous candle/bar's high. Lower low than the previous candle/bar's low.



No Demand is not confirmed unless the next candle/bar closes down.

A No Demand that makes a lower low and not a higher high, a "selling bar", is only a No Demand if it is confirmed by the next candle/bar being down. The problem is if the next candle/bar closes up, then you have just seen a hidden test.

So what you would actually be looking at is a hidden test that fails if the close is down, which is a sign of weakness. We just call it No...

HG,

May I ask you a question please? I've already posted it but did not get an answer yet.

The best trade entry after detecting strenght or weakness is to wait to get a succesful test to buy or No demand to sell. But sometimes the market doesn't gives us them. Is there any other way to enter the market if you already saw strenght or weakness? like a shake out or upthrust?

The other problem that I have is that sometimes we see strenght and we get a succesful test but the hull still red, then price goes up and the hull then turns green. Problem is that we already had a succesful test, how can we then enter?

Thanks in advance,
@mel
  • #1,304
  • Jul 14, 2010 6:54am Jul 14, 2010 6:54am
Quoting Bethel
hi intel, does tt mean if 1 hr 30min are downtrend, and daily trend is up, u will still go long if 15min shows signs of strength?
If I see a valid setup in ANY direction, I will take it. If I am trading against the larger TF trend, my expectations might be more modest than if I was trading with the larger TF.

I am unsure at the moment, whether this is adviseable for everyone because most experienced traders will all give the same advice on this subject......DON'T TRADE AGAINST THE TREND.

Do what works for you.
  • #1,305
  • Jul 14, 2010 8:49am Jul 14, 2010 8:49am
Hello All,

While I do not post much, I read this thread everyday, and am learning every day. I took 1 trade today, and am a bit confused.

We had news at 8.30am EST, which cased a climatic volume up candle that closed off its highs. Potential sellers. Next candle was what I took to be a reversal upthrust candle. So I went short 1pip below the low of this candle, with stop at the top of the candle, target was 1:1 so 91. I exited a bit earlier.

But the next candle ended up being even higher volume, which seemed like a shake out candle to me now, as it went just below day's low and then jumped back up hard. So now I am looking at a potential shake out candle, that is backing up the strength showed from yesterday. So do we go long above the top of the shake out candle, or wait for a break, and then test of that area?

Or is my reading of the charts all wrong?

Regards,
K.
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  • #1,306
  • Jul 14, 2010 9:51am Jul 14, 2010 9:51am
Quoting kermut
Hello All,

While I do not post much, I read this thread everyday, and am learning every day. I took 1 trade today, and am a bit confused.

We had news at 8.30am EST, which cased a climatic volume up candle that closed off its highs. Potential sellers. Next candle was what I took to be a reversal upthrust candle. So I went short 1pip below the low of this candle, with stop at the top of the candle, target was 1:1 so 91. I exited a bit earlier.

But the next candle ended up being even higher volume, which seemed like a shake out candle to me now,...
Not sure about the individual candles so much, but to me it looks like this whole range EU has been in since late US yesterday is distribution. High volume seems to be at the top rather than the bottom, so based on that I took 2 shorts this morning for a few pips.

In summary my take is again that distribution is occurring across the tops of this range, so what's happening re. the moves within the range are less significant in my mind. Possible strategy is to short the top of the range, assuming VSA gives good indications of selling of course...

But maybe some more senior guys can chime in with thoughts...
  • #1,307
  • Jul 14, 2010 9:54am Jul 14, 2010 9:54am
my opinion is that second high volume candle was a test. SM tried to go down but found huge resistance still. so it's building more short positions.

please take into account that i am short (heavily, might loose this weeks profit if we go up) so this could be affecting the way i interpret the facts.

i would be really happy to see a no demand candle on the 15m in the area of 20 to 26. in my opinion that would really trigger the down move. at least another trial at the 680-90 area where lots of buyers seem to be.

while we have high volume on the edges of the range (without marking), we range. with so much accumulation going on, whatever the move is, it will be huge.

as we speak we are at the upper edge.

hapipipin
dreams do come true.
  • #1,308
  • Jul 14, 2010 10:09am Jul 14, 2010 10:09am
Quoting kermut
Hello All,

While I do not post much, I read this thread everyday, and am learning every day. I took 1 trade today, and am a bit confused.

We had news at 8.30am EST, which cased a climatic volume up candle that closed off its highs. Potential sellers. Next candle was what I took to be a reversal upthrust candle. So I went short 1pip below the low of this candle, with stop at the top of the candle, target was 1:1 so 91. I exited a bit earlier.

But the next candle ended up being even higher volume, which seemed like a shake out candle to...
I set a pending buy at 18, got triggered and closed at 1:1 Not sure if it was right interpretation, so looking for feedback from better traders in vsa than me.

Regards,
K.
  • #1,309
  • Jul 14, 2010 10:17am Jul 14, 2010 10:17am
The indicator would be to alert the user that a "low volume test bar" has occured. The criteria as I am able to discern is as follows:

1) The volume (tic volume) should less than average over X number of bars (x to be user definable).
2) The spread on a down price bar (i.e. the distance from the price high to low of the bar which has closed at a lower price than the previous bar) should be less than average of the same x number of bars. and
3) The trigger to start counting the x number of bars should be the price closing above the 5ema line.

I know nothing about coding indicators, and would like to know if such a beast is possible?
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  • #1,310
  • Edited 10:50am Jul 14, 2010 10:27am | Edited 10:50am
Quoting @mel
..The best trade entry after detecting strenght or weakness is to wait to get a succesful test to buy or No demand to sell. But sometimes the market doesn't gives us them. Is there any other way to enter the market if you already saw strenght or weakness? like a shake out or upthrust?
Now we're getting more advanced.

After the low volume signals like No Demand, No Supply or Tests, come the narrow range high volume singals.

A narrow range up candle on increasing volume that closes in the middle is a very good entry signal into a short after we have seen weakness in the background and the trend has changed. The range must be smaller the than the previous bar/candle and of course a NR4 or NR7 would be even more powerful.

Check out the previous post with my EURO daily and the TG daily. Note on the TG chart there is a green triangle on a narrow range down candle that closes in the middle. That candle marks the bottom, but if it had come after the chanage in trend it would be an ideal place to get long.

EDIT: I am of course talking about a squat here.

Quoting @mel
..The other problem that I have is that sometimes we see strenght and we get a succesful test but the hull still red, then price goes up and the hull then turns green. Problem is that we already had a succesful test, how can we then enter?
I do not use Hull(s) so I can't really answer that. I can say that some trades will be missed. That's a part of trading. On the other hand, markets do tend to give more than one opportunity to jump aboard.
Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #1,311
  • Jul 14, 2010 10:37am Jul 14, 2010 10:37am
My post about the EURO daily must seems to be getting ignored. The current market condition is strong.

Yesterday's candle was an increasing volume upcandle that opened lower, made a lower low than the previous candle and then closed higher than the close of the previous candle an its own open. This is a KRB. I like KRBs that are not outside bars but this is still strength. If today closes up then you know the market is strong.

Bullish volume is increasing volume on up bars-when the trend is up and as long as the volume is not excessive. And decreasing volume on down bars-when the trend is up.
Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #1,312
  • Jul 14, 2010 11:28am Jul 14, 2010 11:28am
Quoting @mel
...The other problem that I have is that sometimes we see strenght and we get a succesful test but the hull still red, then price goes up and the hull then turns green. Problem is that we already had a succesful test, how can we then enter..l
Again, I don't use Hulls but I think this is kind of what you are talking about.

The market gives a beautiful 2 candle bottom reversal and then comes back and finds no supply in the range of the reversal candle. But price is below the BPL and BPL is red. In other words, this very strong signal of strength can't be taken by our rules.

Price moves above the BPL signaling a change in trend and the BPL turns blue. We see two signs of strength that don't make good entries as per our rules. We see a No Selling Pressure candle. The problem here is the close is below the BPL. Then we see another down candle that closes in the upper portion of its range on increasing volume. This is strength. The close tells us that demand must have entered on this candle.

In truth, this candle is not a bad entry, but we have not talked about this type of candle so we ignore it as an entry signal at this point. That not withstanding, we should at least see that it is a strong candle.

THE NEXT THREE MARKED CANDLES:

1. Test: down candle closing off its lows in the upper portion of its range on volume less than the previous two candles. Entry #1.

2. No Supply: Down candle on volume less than the previous two candles. This candle is NOT confirmed as the next candle is down. However, you would have placed an entry at the high of this candle upon its close. The next candle trades higher which would have brought you in, but then ultimately closes lower. Entry#2

3. KRB(type2). Not technically VSA. This is an Reversal Candle from a pure price action standpoint. The market opens higher than the previous close but makes a lower low than the previous candle. However, it closes higher than the previous close and higher than its own open. Such price action can only represent strength. Had the volume been less than the previous two, we would be sure this is a "hidden Test". As such it is still a hidden test, but the volume is decreasing and not less than the previous two. Advanced candle recognition here, so will not consider this Entry #3 for most people.

The conclusion is that there will be other entry points beyond that first "Test or No Supply". If they don't come, the market will still be here tomorrow.

While Mal is correct to point out that VSA is not one bar/candle. It is also true that EVERY bar/candle tells a story. A symphony is made up of a multitude of notes coming together to make music. One note taken in isolation is just a sound. But a sound is the opposite of silence.

LOL I don't know if that came out the way I wanted, but I'm going to keep it. Hope this helps.
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Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #1,313
  • Jul 14, 2010 1:01pm Jul 14, 2010 1:01pm
Quoting HiddenGap
Again, I don't use Hulls but I think this is kind of what you are talking about.

The market gives a beautiful 2 candle bottom reversal and then comes back and finds no supply in the range of the reversal candle. But price is below the BPL and BPL is red. In other words, this very strong signal of strength can't be taken by our rules.

Price moves above the BPL signaling a change in trend and the BPL turns blue. We see two signs of strength that don't make good entries as per our rules. We see a No Selling Pressure candle. The problem here is...

Thank you Hg for taking the time to answer to my question.
Your posts are very helpfull and they always makes sence to me.

Thanks,
Mel
  • #1,314
  • Jul 14, 2010 1:31pm Jul 14, 2010 1:31pm
anyone care to shed some light on the EU? don't recall seeing stopping volume at the beginning of a move...
dreams do come true.
  • #1,315
  • Jul 14, 2010 1:33pm Jul 14, 2010 1:33pm
as if some buyers come in...

what do you think mates?
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  • #1,316
  • Jul 14, 2010 1:48pm Jul 14, 2010 1:48pm
Quoting wannaberich
anyone care to shed some light on the EU? don't recall seeing stopping volume at the beginning of a move...
What move are you talking about?

The move on my chart shows a nice 2 Candle reversal. The most important element is that the volume on the first candle, the down candle, is "Yao Ming". It is the largest volume bar that can be seen for some time.

What happens on all that volume?

The market closes off of the lows, and the next candle is up. There is but on conclusion to make of this-this candle contains BUYING/DEMAND.
Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #1,317
  • Jul 14, 2010 1:55pm Jul 14, 2010 1:55pm
Quoting HiddenGap
Now we're getting more advanced.

After the low volume signals like No Demand, No Supply or Tests, come the narrow range high volume singals.

A narrow range up candle on increasing volume that closes in the middle is a very good entry signal into a short after we have seen weakness in the background and the trend has changed. The range must be smaller the than the previous bar/candle and of course a NR4 or NR7 would be even more powerful.

Check out the previous post with my EURO daily and the TG daily. Note on the TG chart there is...
Now let me ask... If you would call a narrow range up candle, on increasing volume (which appears after weakness in the background), a squat then what would you call a narrow range down bar on increasing volume (which appears after weakness is shown in the background)?
  • #1,318
  • Jul 14, 2010 1:55pm Jul 14, 2010 1:55pm
Quoting wannaberich
anyone care to shed some light on the EU? don't recall seeing stopping volume at the beginning of a move...
If you are talking about the current down move, stopping volume would not appear as the market moves up. But:
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Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #1,319
  • Jul 14, 2010 2:07pm Jul 14, 2010 2:07pm
Quoting wh1zz0
Now let me ask... If you would call a narrow range up candle, on increasing volume (which appears after weakness in the background), a squat then what would you call a narrow range down bar on increasing volume (which appears after weakness is shown in the background)?
Squat is the general term that Bill Williams came up with to define those bars/candles that have a decreasing range and increasing volume.

I tend to us Up Squat and Down Squat respectively. Up means it closed higher than the previous candle/bar and Down means it closed lower than the previous candle/bar. As you know, when weakness appears, it appears on Up candles/bars. And when strength appears, it appears on down candles/bars. So the up/down also refers to weakness and strength respectively.
Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #1,320
  • Jul 14, 2010 2:07pm Jul 14, 2010 2:07pm
question for hidden gap or intel located on the chart.
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