Moving SL to BE is very wrong/noobish | Page 4 | Forex Factory

Options

Go to
Permalinks
Print Thread

Similar Threads

Need help for this very very simple indicator 1 reply

Simple Moving Average Vs. Moving Average? 8 replies

Does Moving average actually act as moving S/R ?? 20 replies

Very Simple Moving Average 20 replies

Very noobish question about EMAs 6 replies

Moving SL to BE is very wrong/noobish

  • #61
  • Jun 28, 2010 1:56am Jun 28, 2010 1:56am
Quoting akukaya
Your query is a little fun to me,

may be the correlation of electrical wave form vs forex waveform..haha..


I am an electrical engineer too
should I mention here...hahaha
I got a feeling why u ask this..
not sure what you mean here too much akukaya I know I think 3 or 4 electrical engineers and many more people in the study of sine waves, ffts, SSA etc etc.. I personally see it as a disadvantage for fx more than an advantage !
  • #62
  • Jun 28, 2010 11:01am Jun 28, 2010 11:01am
Quoting Mr J
It has nothing to do with amount of capital, they're simply trading a longer timeframe than you. They also may choose a larger equivalent stop (i.e. two people trading the same timeframe will differ of size of stop).
I understand how different timerames have different goals, but 100 pips profit is 100 pips profit no mater what chart you used to decide to enter the trade. My mindset is just that you won't go broke taking a profit.

But even though I would personally close out a trade for that profit rather than just moving my SL up, my point was I do feel it it better for someone to get out at BE rather than at a loss.

BTW: Rob Mondave, I wasn't directing this at you but at a post from an old thread that had the person up over 100 pips, but he wanted an even 150 pips and wound up holding it until he was stopped out for a 100 pip loss. That is actually over a 200 pip drop in equity that he just watched without any action....that is what I can't imagine doing. What you do (moving SL to BE) when you are in profit on a longer trade I would consider normal (though I would close it out to lock in profit and get back into the trade at the next retracement if conditions were good.....but that is just based on my short-term mentality, I suppose). I certainly meant no disrespect to anyone.
  • #63
  • Jun 28, 2010 12:13pm Jun 28, 2010 12:13pm
Trading is a business of which success is dependent upon managing and minimizing risk. It is not at all dependent upon ones number of winning trades. The original argument put forward in this thread constantly refers back to "winning". Nothing could be more shortsighted in trading than making "winning" ones driving ambition. The absolute hardest way to make money trading is to decide upon trading a system/methodology that wins a high percentage of trades, but risks more on average than what is won. I have been lucky enough to meet and have as mentors a few very successful traders and all of them have stipulations within their systems of where and when to move stops to breakeven within an unfolding trade sequence. These stipulations were often arrived at AFTER extensive testing proved that it definitely was much more profitable to move a stop to breakeven at some point in a trade, than to allow the trade a full stop-out. Trying telling pros such as Robert Miner and John Carter that BE stops are noobish and they will simply laugh at you.
  • #64
  • Jun 28, 2010 4:09pm Jun 28, 2010 4:09pm
Quoting moneymaker2
I understand how different timerames have different goals, but 100 pips profit is 100 pips profit no mater what chart you used to decide to enter the trade.
The significance of 100 pips will vary from trader to trader. 100 pips for me may be more like 20 for you - an acceptable amount to risk to see further gains.

Quote
My mindset is just that you won't go broke taking a profit.
I think that mentality is damaging for most traders. It may be good for those looking for small, quick profit here and there, but many of us are looking to hold our trades for days, weeks or months. I'm a position trader, so my emphasis is on the survivability of my trades, rather than quickly moving to BE or to lock in a profit. If I'm looking to hold the entries, closing them just because they've made some money is cutting myself short, and wasting the opportunities. If I start strangling my trades in such a manner, I could go broke by "taking a profit", as I might not win enough to overcome my losses.

Quoting alkemi
It is not at all dependent upon ones number of winning trades.
Yes it is. Winrate is half the equation needed for profitable trading. It's also dependent on managing risk. However, managing risk does not necessarily mean minimising the loss on a trade, as it's actually possible to minimise risk on a trade, but harm expectation so that overall risk increases.

Quote
it definitely was much more profitable to move a stop to breakeven at some point in a trade, than to allow the trade a full stop-out.

The issue for me here isn't moving a stop up as a trade runs well, but about the tactic of moving a stop up to BE quite quickly, which may smother a trade.
  • #65
  • Jun 29, 2010 4:38am Jun 29, 2010 4:38am
Quoting auxesis
LOL, actually read this on a bar room wall (college days),
To do is to BE, Plato
To Be is to do, Socrates
Do be do be do, Sinatra
  • #66
  • Jun 29, 2010 4:58am Jun 29, 2010 4:58am
this guy is not engineer. if he is, he must be a bad one.

moving to BE at key points can be very useful.
  • #67
  • Jun 29, 2010 5:04am Jun 29, 2010 5:04am
Well, I'm ain't concerned to be wrong or noobish.

I'm more concerned with doing everything I can to prevent losing my money. U??
  • #68
  • Jun 29, 2010 5:16am Jun 29, 2010 5:16am
Quoting utjuph
Well, I'm ain't concerned to be wrong or noobish.

I'm more concerned with doing everything I can to prevent losing my money. U??
and that ISN'T wrong!
  • #69
  • Jun 29, 2010 5:30am Jun 29, 2010 5:30am
Quoting Brb-Fraudin
I am by no mean a pro trader or something. But I am very good in math and statistics because of my electrical engineering career.

Anyway I will explain to you why moving SL to BE is very bad and noobish in few simple words w/o using complex math.

1-You open two lots , with both TP 30 pips. One hit TP , the other you move SL to BE. The 2nd lot hit BE , no problem , you still got your 30 pips , right? WRONG!
Surely Sir, if you have TWO trades BOTH at 30pip TP and ONE of them gets hit, does not the other get hit too?

I see a fundamental flaw in your explanation.

ps. Others may have pointed this out, but I did not read the whole thread.
  • #70
  • Jun 29, 2010 6:02am Jun 29, 2010 6:02am
Quoting leemonk
but I did not read the whole thread.
totally don't blame ya..i don't think most would be able to bear it, inc me
  • #71
  • Jun 29, 2010 6:33am Jun 29, 2010 6:33am
Quoting witsnpips
this guy is not engineer. if he is, he must be a bad one.

moving to BE at key points can be very useful.
Quoting Igrok
Reasons based on MM (i.e. it provides a free trade) or psychology are ineffectual, at least in terms of providing a long term statistical edge. If a trader's method has to somehow work around, or compensate for, his psychological foibles, then it's having to work overly hard.
I'd rather believe Igrok than you
  • #72
  • Jun 29, 2010 9:40am Jun 29, 2010 9:40am
Quoting leemonk
Surely Sir, if you have TWO trades BOTH at 30pip TP and ONE of them gets hit, does not the other get hit too?

I see a fundamental flaw in your explanation.

ps. Others may have pointed this out, but I did not read the whole thread.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Mr. Brb-Fraudin, in a roundabout way, seems to describe scaling: You slowly exit a trade as it goes your way.
If you move an SL to BE, given price was below the BE before it was changed, you in effect are also replacing the TP of one of the 30pip TP trades with that BE. In other words, you removed the SL and, for both trades, the trade with the changed-to BE would exit at that BE and the trade with the TP would exit at the (30-pip) TP.

If so, then of course Mr. Brb-Fraudin is correct, from what I've read: Scaling is dangerous.
A corollary to this would be that martingaling, which increases an investment after losing a trade, is also too risky.
  • #73
  • Jun 29, 2010 11:00am Jun 29, 2010 11:00am
Quoting ha-pattern
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Mr. Brb-Fraudin, in a roundabout way, seems to describe scaling:...
Yes I meant by "hitting TP" That the trader closes the lot at a profit. Most people understood that.

Of course Putting SL at BE can be useful sometimes. But over the long term it will make you lose money.

Why?? Because decreasing the space on the trade will decrease the profit "hit rate".

Everyone here talks without proving that SL @ BE prevents more losers than winners.

SL @ BE prevents more winners than losers , and then , on the long term you lose money.

Your first priority is to be profitable , not protecting your capital. If your first priority to protect your capital then don't open trades.
  • #74
  • Jun 29, 2010 11:40am Jun 29, 2010 11:40am
Quoting Brb-Fraudin

Everyone here talks without proving that SL @ BE prevents more losers than winners.
And you didn't prove otherwise. Except in your example which assumes a certain r/r ratio, no edge, not taking into account ta/fa or market conditions, etc. It's absolutely meaningless for what you're trying to "prove". You took certain trade conditions and assumed if it doesn't work for that scenario that it can't work for any combination of trade conditions. Variables change for every trade. Sometimes it will prove more profitable and sometimes it won't. The rub lies in whether the trader knows when to manage a trade that way or not and can do it correctly on a consistent basis. It's probably the engineer side of you that makes you want to distill everything down into a single conclusion. You will soon learn you can't do that with trading. There are too many variables.
  • #75
  • Jun 29, 2010 12:02pm Jun 29, 2010 12:02pm
Quoting Lonestar
It's probably the engineer side of you that makes you want to distill everything down into a single conclusion. You will soon learn you can't do that with trading. There are too many variables.
Well said... and for the rest of the post where you speak about real proof,, well the real proof goes hand in hand with the quoted statement...he has been in fx for 5+ years but still does not know that these approaches, and in general this thread, is useless toward being profitable..

Sho said it best...the answer to argument is literally, just do what works..Stop looking for diversions and distractions, arguing tedious things which have zeeeero effect in your profitability
  • #76
  • Jun 29, 2010 12:21pm Jun 29, 2010 12:21pm
if you get in to profit and still suffer a loss on the trade its bad news why do it. if you stop is triggered at break even. if you're that confident of your trade you can always get back in and if you stopped at break even and it goes higher or lower depending, you can even get a better price. if the trade goes your way better to lower your stops to levels just above or below resistance or support. be patiant and watch the trade, this is alot harder to to if you in the smaller time frames always best to set stops using daily support and resistance and use smaller time frames for more accurate entries, i wish i could scalp but i cant its alot harder, the main thing is you need sufficiant capital to blow in order to make it count when you win some people may become millionairs starting out with 500 to a 100 dollars pounds the truth is this is about how much you should be prepared to loose in a single trade depending on the style of trading you do
  • #77
  • Jun 29, 2010 12:26pm Jun 29, 2010 12:26pm
Quoting Brb-Fraudin
Yes I meant by "hitting TP" That the trader closes the lot at a profit. Most people understood that.

Of course Putting SL at BE can be useful sometimes. But over the long term it will make you lose money.

Why?? Because decreasing the space on the trade will decrease the profit "hit rate".

Everyone here talks without proving that SL @ BE prevents more losers than winners.

SL @ BE prevents more winners than losers , and then , on the long term you lose money.

Your first priority is to be profitable , not protecting your capital. If your...
Ah well, mate, this reminds me of Soros' saying : 'First, survive. Later on, profit'. That's the one he learnt from his father in surviving the WW.

And that's become my aim too, mate. Sorry, no offense, I just felt suited with his perspective. As for yours, ah well, you'll find someone follows you. Not me tho, at least for now.


  • #78
  • Jun 29, 2010 1:34pm Jun 29, 2010 1:34pm
Quoting utjuph
Ah well, mate, this reminds me of Soros' saying : 'First, survive. Later on, profit'. That's the one he learnt from his father in surviving the WW.

And that's become my aim too, mate. Sorry, no offense, I just felt suited with his perspective. As for yours, ah well, you'll find someone follows you. Not me tho, at least for now.


Giving (half) your trade to BE when you are +ve and giving (All) the trade to stop loss when you are -ve is not a good surviving method.
  • #79
  • Jun 29, 2010 1:39pm Jun 29, 2010 1:39pm
Quoting trade price
most of the people is correct and incorrect.
people forget that,
there is many way you can skin a cat.
it does not matter how genius you are with the math or how bad you are with the math.trading is diffrent.
its very easy to argue with anything.
with anything there is allways good and bad site.
take and apply IN YOUR TRADING what makes you sence AND MORE IMPORTANT , MAKES MONEY.

edit:i will post a link to a video about BE and pyramid.(if i can find the link,)may be someone will get something out of that video

GOOD TRADING...
I have been following you for a good time SHO. Indeed you know what works for you. And I know that you move SL to BE when trade becomes 1:1. I am sure you know your stuff and your trading style.
  • #80
  • Last Post: Jun 29, 2010 1:42pm Jun 29, 2010 1:42pm
^

Well, if that suits you, mate. And hopefully, takes you to longer surviving period.

Many ways to come at the same direction right. By this point, you use this opportunity to prove your theory. Who knows later in the future, yours will be widely used by ordinary men like me using Soros'.

0 traders viewing now