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Is MBT really an ECN ?

  • #41
  • May 17, 2010 12:56pm May 17, 2010 12:56pm
Quoting Takisd
Lol... My post is horrible because it exposed your defensive lies. Enjoy manipulating peoples words in the forum.

ECN is not just limit orders, stop orders, or direct market execution. Its a connection.

For all your clients know, their limit orders are being shown internally only.

I suppose you are going to tell me that on ECN market price has no available volume? Seeing as though you can only see a market executed order the tick that it happens.

No wonder the NFA and CFTC have started strict regulation in the US. Brokers are dishing our all...
People like you amaze me.
  • #42
  • May 17, 2010 3:23pm May 17, 2010 3:23pm
So, are they scammers?
  • #43
  • May 17, 2010 8:12pm May 17, 2010 8:12pm
Justin,
you have the patience of a saint !
  • #44
  • May 17, 2010 8:18pm May 17, 2010 8:18pm
mb trading can say what they want,but in time of high volatility....sometimes spread become enormous...platform is freezing while news and spread are constantly in variation and never look like they said it shouldbe;i've got a lot of issues ...both on live either on demo;a lot of problem to have my money back! don't trust them
  • #45
  • May 17, 2010 8:48pm May 17, 2010 8:48pm
Just want to let people know that I have 2 accounts now on fxpro and now I realized it's not worth it to get the low spread as they begin to give you requotes more and more requotes which subconciously will trigger bad trades for us.
  • #46
  • May 17, 2010 10:44pm May 17, 2010 10:44pm
Quoting jleblang

We are not holding that order in any manner for ourselves.
Hi Justin

You can understand how people could be skeptical about that statement given the wording in your own customer agreement and associated regulatory disclosures.

What I don't understand is how regulators can demand that you (and other firms like you) warn clients about something that you say you're not doing. Hasn't anyone in your compliance or legal department ever challenged it, I know I would.
  • #47
  • May 18, 2010 4:51am May 18, 2010 4:51am
Quoting pipreaper
mb trading can say what they want,but in time of high volatility....sometimes spread become enormous...platform is freezing while news and spread are constantly in variation and never look like they said it shouldbe;i've got a lot of issues ...both on live either on demo;a lot of problem to have my money back! don't trust them
I can't speak to MT4 trading as I just trade on Navigator, but I have never had the platform freeze during news (or any other time). As far a spread variation, it's an ECN. You like fixed spreads then go to a bucket shop. The spreads don't widen that much anyways except 30 seconds before a major news release and that's understandable. I see no "enormous" variations.
  • #48
  • May 18, 2010 5:15am May 18, 2010 5:15am
Quoting Takisd
Lol... My post is horrible because it exposed your defensive lies. Enjoy manipulating peoples words in the forum.

ECN is not just limit orders, stop orders, or direct market execution. Its a connection.

For all your clients know, their limit orders are being shown internally only.

I suppose you are going to tell me that on ECN market price has no available volume? Seeing as though you can only see a market executed order the tick that it happens.

No wonder the NFA and CFTC have started strict regulation in the US. Brokers are dishing our...
Alright then, how about FX Open, would you consider them an ECN?
  • #49
  • May 18, 2010 8:12am May 18, 2010 8:12am
I am going to repost part of my previous because I really am curious about the answer...

Hi Justin - I have heard a lot that your net cap requirement would be higher than $20 mil if the NFA didn't think you were actually STP/ECN. Can you point to some documentation from the NFA that states this. My understanding is that your net cap requirement doesnt start to go up unless you have over $10 mil in client deposits.

I remember talk a couple years back of two types of FDMs - FDMa and FDMb - where one would have less stringent requirements because they are proven to be STP - but I dont recall ever seeing this beyond speculation and I cant find it anywhere on the NFA website.
  • #50
  • May 18, 2010 10:58am May 18, 2010 10:58am
Quoting pipmutt
Hi Justin

You can understand how people could be skeptical about that statement given the wording in your own customer agreement and associated regulatory disclosures.

What I don't understand is how regulators can demand that you (and other firms like you) warn clients about something that you say you're not doing. Hasn't anyone in your compliance or legal department ever challenged it, I know I would.
Pipmutt-

It's really easy to test yourself. Open a live account. Find a symbol with like a 4 pip spread. Let's say the quote is 133.04 by 133.08. Put in an order to buy 1 mini lot at 133.041. You instantly become the bid at 133.041. The bid moves up, and the Level 2 shows your 1 contract. Now cancel, it disappears immediately. Now put an order to sell at 133.077. You become the ask for everyone to see at that second. No delays. Then cancel. Disappears. I did this for hours when I first signed up with them, assuming that there would be some circumstance where my order didn't appear because "they" wanted it. Never happened and never has.

This isn't rocket science, it is the easiest thing in the world to prove. When MB Trading says "We don't hold your Limit orders even for a second for our own benefit," all you have to do is run that drill as often as you want to prove it.

So no, I don't understand how people that understand the market can be skeptical about his statement. I can understand how they might want to go test it, but doing so only proves he's right.
  • #51
  • May 18, 2010 11:16am May 18, 2010 11:16am
Quoting pipmutt
Hi Justin

You can understand how people could be skeptical about that statement given the wording in your own customer agreement and associated regulatory disclosures.

What I don't understand is how regulators can demand that you (and other firms like you) warn clients about something that you say you're not doing. Hasn't anyone in your compliance or legal department ever challenged it, I know I would.
Pipmutt,

I’m not really sure what you mean about challenging the regulators about the fact that we are the counterparty to your trade. What is there to challenge? As I stated (I thought very clearly), we ARE the counter party to 100% of our customer trades because we have the clearing arrangements with the liquidity providers in our system. You (the customer) does not. You can’t trade with XYZ bank directly. You don’t have a signed document with them that says that at the end of the day, one of us will pass so many Euros or Dollars or Pounds to the other based on the net of trades that matched off during the day. For you to have that would require that you personally have a large (typically seven figure) deposit with that provider along with a legal agreement. That’s why you use a broker. It’s our job to have the infrastructure in place, just like when you select a stock brokerage. You can’t possibly have a clearing arrangement with all market makers that says that you both agree to pay for and swap shares of stocks on behalf of yourself. That’s what a broker is. It’s funny because the same language applies in all clearing arrangements in the stock world, but no one says “I think e-Trade is trading against me.” Everyone understands the point of a clearing firm and the broker-clearing firm relationship.

So, no, there is nothing to question about the way the agreement is written. It’s very clear and 100% accurate. WE are the counter-party to all customer trades. That doesn’t mean that we trade against you. That simply means that we clear your trades based on the prices that you got based on orders placed through our system against our liquidity providers. Now, if you want to choose to believe that instead we are operating some deal desk system just because you don’t like that one line, well, that’s your choice. But I would say that, per wannatradefx’s prior post, it isn’t hard to prove that we are what we say we are. It doesn’t even require risking money with an actual position to prove that we don’t hold your trades behind the scenes for even a second. They show up immediately, and once the whole world can see them, they are targets for anyone to hit.

The other thing that would disprove what I am saying is if you got a fill on our system during the day, and then at the end of the day, we came back and said “OK, that’s not the price you get after all, we’re going to give you this price instead.” Of course, that isn’t what happens. The bottom line is that you always see the prices in our quotes that come from our providers. You can always see the price that you hit because you get a fill in your software in real time. You always get that price in settlement. It doesn’t change. And your Limit orders are shown to the world immediately. You can try to fight it forever, but there is no room in there for us to be trading against you by holding your orders while we consider if we want to take the other side of the trade.
  • #52
  • May 18, 2010 11:36am May 18, 2010 11:36am
Also, if MB would hold proprietary positions (against clients or otherwise) or keep an inventory for making markets, it would show on the net-capital requirements from the CFTC - since they do impose haircuts on those. You can see that marketmakers like Oanda have a higher requirement than MBT, who only shows the minimum - indicating no risk from prop positions.
  • #53
  • May 18, 2010 2:24pm May 18, 2010 2:24pm
Quoting ForexSooth
I am going to repost part of my previous because I really am curious about the answer...

Hi Justin - I have heard a lot that your net cap requirement would be higher than $20 mil if the NFA didn't think you were actually STP/ECN. Can you point to some documentation from the NFA that states this. My understanding is that your net cap requirement doesnt start to go up unless you have over $10 mil in client deposits.

I remember talk a couple years back of two types of FDMs - FDMa and FDMb - where one would have less stringent requirements because...
Forexsooth,

The question comes down to whether a firm is FDM, FCM, or IB (we are FDM). If we traded the pairs directly, we would have to report additional net capital not on customer funds held but on volume traded. We don't have to do this because we simply provide the execution.
  • #54
  • May 18, 2010 2:25pm May 18, 2010 2:25pm
Quoting asalada
Just want to let people know that I have 2 accounts now on fxpro and now I realized it's not worth it to get the low spread as they begin to give you requotes more and more requotes which subconciously will trigger bad trades for us.
Yup.
  • #55
  • May 18, 2010 3:29pm May 18, 2010 3:29pm
Quoting jleblang

we ARE the counter party to 100% of our customer trades
That's the bottom line, that and......

MB TRADING FUTURES (MBTF) AS COUNTERPARTY
THE FOREIGN CURRENCY TRADING YOU ARE ENTERING INTO IS NOT CONDUCTED ON AN EXCHANGE. MBTF IS ACTING AS A COUNTERPARTY IN THESE TRANSACTIONS AND, THEREFORE, ACTS AS THE BUYER WHEN YOU SELL AND THE SELLER WHEN YOU BUY. THE PRICES MBTF OFFERS MIGHT NOT BE THE BEST PRICES AVAILABLE.


Fair enough, as long as we all know where we stand.


"You can put lipstick on a pig....but it's still a pig"
  • #56
  • May 18, 2010 9:29pm May 18, 2010 9:29pm
If MBT is the counterparty of all our trades, I still don't understand what's the difference between them and a Market Maker, because in both cases if they can't hedge your trade with another client or bank they may lose money when you win and win money when you lose, is this correct?
  • #57
  • May 18, 2010 11:47pm May 18, 2010 11:47pm
Quoting asalada
Just want to let people know that I have 2 accounts now on fxpro and now I realized it's not worth it to get the low spread as they begin to give you requotes more and more requotes which subconciously will trigger bad trades for us.

That’s what I said. I never understand people that want to send their money to an unregulated broker (in Cyprus!) where you should probably assume from the start that you’ll never get it back because they see a tight spread on the screen that you know won’t hold. It’s the same old deal desk junk. They show you something for a while and then they just start slipping and requoting you away until they have all of your money. Yeah, that makes more sense than a regulated ECN broker in the US like MBT or IB! NOT!
  • #58
  • May 19, 2010 12:51am May 19, 2010 12:51am
Quoting Trad3r
If MBT is the counterparty of all our trades, I still don't understand what's the difference between them and a Market Maker, because in both cases if they can't hedge your trade with another client or bank they may lose money when you win and win money when you lose, is this correct?
Do you not read the thread that you are posting on? Justin already replied to this in this thread definitively. They don't trade against you. It's already been explained a clarified beyond reason.
  • #59
  • May 19, 2010 1:26am May 19, 2010 1:26am
Quoting Trad3r
If MBT is the counterparty of all our trades, I still don't understand what's the difference between them and a Market Maker, because in both cases if they can't hedge your trade with another client or bank they may lose money when you win and win money when you lose, is this correct?
You still can't read? A market maker is someone that trades against you, meaning when you buy, they sell to you and when you sell they buy from you. They use their retail customer orders to maintain positions and then push the direction they don't want off to a larger bank. And when they need money, they slip and requote you. That's a market maker or deal desk. MBT clears your trades on behalf of you. That's it. Pretty simple. You buy from a bank and MBT clears your trade with that bank on your behalf.
  • #60
  • May 19, 2010 3:27am May 19, 2010 3:27am
You should have no problems trusting,believing a regulated broker like MB or IB that has been for years in the stock and futures business that starts to offer forex .

On the other hand, trusting a bucketshop popping up somewhere from a tropical island, is simply foolish
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