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Multiple Entries and Fixed Stops Based on First Entry

  • #1
  • First Post: May 9, 2010 11:23am May 9, 2010 11:23am
Hello,

I was wondering how many traders break there orders up?

The reason I ask this, is how many times do you find that you have not got in at a cheap price and got stopped out and you have not hit your TP.

Total amount to trade 3%
SL 70
TP 140

Instead of entering the whole 3% on your 'your signal' (whatever trading method you use), why not enter 1% on your first position with your fixed stop - now this tends to happen all the time, price moves aginst your entry, lets say 20 pips, then enter the next 1%, but with the same SL and then price carrys on moving against you another 20 pips (40 pips in total) and you enter you final 1% with the same SL as your first entry.

So you should be in a better position.

I think MM is the holy grail - not the system, for me - MM gives you the edge.

Regards,
Vip
  • #2
  • May 9, 2010 11:32am May 9, 2010 11:32am
scaling in/cost averaging? good stuff once disciplined, but I would not recommend having fixed entries rather just use the key levels which price is telling you of possible reversals
  • #3
  • May 9, 2010 11:44am May 9, 2010 11:44am
Quoting Sim
scaling in/cost averaging?
Yes I agree... there is this down, you paying spread, say 3 times... but the only thing I have found with this, I find myself not having to have a RR of more than 1:1 (in terms of pips) - I have to work the maths out on this.

:-)
  • #4
  • May 9, 2010 11:45am May 9, 2010 11:45am
you trade with the expectation of the trade going against you? when you're right you have 1/3rd of a position in?....if you place your stops in the proper places and your correct in your direction of trade, then you don't need to worry about being stopped.....arbitrary stops are a license to steal and unfortuantely widely taught......worry less about how tight you can place your stop so you can pile on lots and concentrate on finding the proper stop level for the trade you are opening(varies with every trade) trading less lots and being right ALOT more
  • #5
  • May 9, 2010 11:46am May 9, 2010 11:46am
eh ? you're not paying more spread you're just spreading the cost out
  • #6
  • May 9, 2010 1:45pm May 9, 2010 1:45pm
Quoting waves
you trade with the expectation of the trade going against you? when you're right you have 1/3rd of a position in?
No not really, this is all about controlling risk... with the tools I have, I have no more idea of where price is going to head. Price may turn where I am, I don't know to be sure. Though I will get in with 1% and I will aim to win 1% in the end of the trade... though if I can re-enter at a cheaper price, then I will break in my trades with a max position of 3% of my equity.

If my SL is 10 pips, I'll enter 1% and will not be able to play in more trades as there would not be too much point with SL of 10 pips... I may lose, I may win and will get out with 1%. Though if I have a 30 pip SL, I therefore may re-enter 1/2 times and if I aim for a 30 pip TP from my first entry, then with the other trades I have, my R:R will be better than 1:1, though I have 30SL and TP.

This is all about controlling risk and maintaining capital.
  • #7
  • May 9, 2010 1:59pm May 9, 2010 1:59pm
Good Luck.................
  • #8
  • May 9, 2010 2:20pm May 9, 2010 2:20pm
3 entries - 3X2=6 on spread (excluding slippage)

But overall... I might agree with you as my stop is the same.

Quoting Sim
eh ? you're not paying more spread you're just spreading the cost out
  • #9
  • May 9, 2010 2:21pm May 9, 2010 2:21pm
Thanks... see how we go.

Quoting waves
Good Luck.................
  • #10
  • May 9, 2010 2:25pm May 9, 2010 2:25pm
Quoting guess121
3 entries - 3X2=6 on spread (excluding slippage)

But overall... I might agree with you as my stop is the same.
enter 3lots at x position

enter 3*1lot at x y z positions

same spread costs
  • #11
  • May 9, 2010 2:33pm May 9, 2010 2:33pm
sim..say "good luck" nothing else to do here
  • #12
  • May 9, 2010 2:42pm May 9, 2010 2:42pm
Sorry I might be getting this incorrect... 'same spread costs' you mean per trade execution?

Quoting Sim
enter 3lots at x position

enter 3*1lot at x y z positions

same spread costs
  • #13
  • May 9, 2010 2:48pm May 9, 2010 2:48pm
you tell me that's what I'm trying to clarify for your sake.. you said:

Yes I agree... there is this down, you paying spread, say 3 times...

but you're talking about multiple entries, so one assumes u are risking the same % of your account in a singular entry or multiple

correct?
  • #14
  • May 9, 2010 3:10pm May 9, 2010 3:10pm
That is correct.

Quoting Sim
you tell me that's what I'm trying to clarify for your sake.. you said:

Yes I agree... there is this down, you paying spread, say 3 times...

but you're talking about multiple entries, so one assumes u are risking the same % of your account in a singular entry or multiple

correct?
  • #15
  • May 9, 2010 3:19pm May 9, 2010 3:19pm
yep cool, so u pay spread 3 times, but u pay 1/3 of the spread each time

anyway..
  • #16
  • May 9, 2010 3:27pm May 9, 2010 3:27pm
couple of things averaging down is bad .. average up is good but advanced..

you are not paying the spread 3 times you are breaking orders up and paying spread on each one of the orders.. so for total amount in the market you pay spread once..

generally newbies should stay away from averaging up or pyramiding.. its advanced and they should deal with single entry with stop and infite profit setups..
  • #17
  • May 9, 2010 3:42pm May 9, 2010 3:42pm
Right so here you go Waves...

So based on my calulations

Equity £1000
3% = £30

R:R = 1:1 SL 30 - TP 30

First Entry SL - 30 pips - Trade size 0.33

Price moves 10 pips against me
Second Entry SL - 20 pips - Trade size 0.5

Price moves another 10 pips against me
Third Entry SL - 10 pips - Trade size 1

So now...

Take Profit 1 = 30 pips = £10
Take Profit 2 = 40 pips = £20
Take profit 3 = 50 pips = £50

Total = £80

Risk £30.

If I could predict tops and bottoms... there would be no need for this, infact there would be no need for MM... I would bet my account each time.

Quoting waves
you trade with the expectation of the trade going against you? when you're right you have 1/3rd of a position in?....if you place your stops in the proper places and your correct in your direction of trade, then you don't need to worry about being stopped.....arbitrary stops are a license to steal and unfortuantely widely taught......worry less about how tight you can place your stop so you can pile on lots and concentrate on finding the proper stop level for the trade you are opening(varies with every trade) trading less lots and being right ALOT...
  • #18
  • Edited 4:02pm May 9, 2010 3:56pm | Edited 4:02pm
I am not averaging down... my stop is fixed from the time I enter my first trade (sorry if this is not clear, my fixed stop is different everytime I get my signal... it could be 12 pips, it even cold be 34 pips) and then the rest of the other trades will always be based on my first stop.

Newbie... in this game no... trading wise... yes.

Even when I am profitable I will always be a newbie in this game, as there is loads I do not understand and there is loads I will never understand about the structure of markets.

I have been reading about micro structures and high frequency trading... (some FX related) and it did make me chuckle about the way I trade.

Thanks for popping by... read some of your stuff on Order Flow, good stuff, but the thing that I keep coming back to is MM, a way of finding out of reducing my risk and increasing position size allowing me to maximise my profits, even with a R:R of 1:1.

Quoting domino
couple of things averaging down is bad .. average up is good but advanced..

you are not paying the spread 3 times you are breaking orders up and paying spread on each one of the orders.. so for total amount in the market you pay spread once..

generally newbies should stay away from averaging up or pyramiding.. its advanced and they should deal with single entry with stop and infite profit setups..
  • #19
  • May 9, 2010 4:00pm May 9, 2010 4:00pm
1st of all...it's 80 pips divided by 3 since your pip totals are 1/3rd positions. and thats if you hit your targets.....will every position have a 30 pip stop? then with each partial trade you lower the amount of retrace your trades can withstand and stay in profit and or keep from experiencing stoped trades. before you freak out and close everything....... If you can't consistantly recognize tops and bottoms..............LEARN...................notice the word consistantly, never bet your whole account no matter how sure of yourself you are..........................you have it figured out...so lets see where you are in 6 months.......
  • #20
  • May 9, 2010 4:01pm May 9, 2010 4:01pm
Quoting guess121
I am not averaging down... my stop is fixed from the time I enter my first trade and then the rest of the other trades will always be based on my first stop.
Than you're risk is more than 30 if you add on to a trade that goes you're way before adding........
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