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Stating The Obvious and The Quest For Wisdom

  • #321
  • Mar 14, 2010 11:14am Mar 14, 2010 11:14am
Quoting chatzi
Are you sure it wasn't a joke he made? I agree Fibs or Gann lines are not going to make you a trader, they are just a tool for helping you make decisions and managing your trade.

If you were expecting the Holy Grail then you were always going to be dissapointed.

A lot of you also hang on Darkstars word because he talked about high percentage trading, and great returns. You want the results but aren't willing to do the work. I'm sure Darkstar like most successful traders spent A LOT of time in front of the charts.
We were expecting to be taught how to trade, the key word being 'taught'. He didn't teach anything, he just left us all to run around like headless chickens with no guidance. For gods sake, he was telling us that we would be able to forecast the markets future movements to the pip. Believe me, once the extent of his crazy became apparent the forum membership rapidly went down.

I'm all for allowing people to have their own revelations and not spoon feeding them, but leaving people to hang for months just talking between themselves while being charged is unfair. We were basically paying to talk to each other in his forum.

We were expecting a sane teacher and a credible method, not a holy grail.

Not at all, Ive explained earlier in the thread why what darkstar has spoken about on this forum appeals to me. You know nothing about how much 'work' we've done, so stick to talking about things that you know at least a little about.
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #322
  • Mar 14, 2010 11:19am Mar 14, 2010 11:19am
Quoting Leonlorenzo
We were expecting to be taught how to trade, the key word being 'taught'. He didn't teach anything, he just left us all to run around like headless chickens with no guidance. For gods sake, he was telling us that we would be able to forecast the markets future movements to the pip. Believe me, once the extent of his crazy became apparent the forum membership rapidly went down.

I'm all for allowing people to have their own revelations and not spoon feeding them, but leaving people to hang for months just talking between themselves while being...
I wasnt taking about you personally, sorry if I offended you.

There is though a large number of people who expect to be profitable right away, and not just marginally they want 20-50% a month. This can be done but not after a few months practice. Try a year or two if at all.
  • #323
  • Mar 14, 2010 11:21am Mar 14, 2010 11:21am
Quoting Leonlorenzo
We were expecting to be taught how to trade, the key word being 'taught'. He didn't teach anything, he just left us all to run around like headless chickens with no guidance. For gods sake, he was telling us that we would be able to forecast the markets future movements to the pip. Believe me, once the extent of his crazy became apparent the forum membership rapidly went down.

I'm all for allowing people to have their own revelations and not spoon feeding them, but leaving people to hang for months just talking between themselves while being...
I don't know what happened in the private forum. But unless there was tons of content upfront then I would have left right away.

Is the forum still going? (Not that I would join after your reviews lol)
  • #324
  • Mar 14, 2010 11:23am Mar 14, 2010 11:23am
just to keep this going, may i discuss this topic a little further with you ?
it great to see other people opinions about how they see things.

Quoting pipmutt
Not screen time, no, very general market knowledge and common sense. The time I spent in front of screens would have been better spent understanding trading and the market a little more rather than watching charts and trying out directional indicators.
hmm, i am curious to know where does your general market knowledge come from ? Also, how do you better understand trading the market ? Are you refering to books ? or public opinions/articles/views ? It seems that theory is more important to you than practice ? That theory is more important than experience ?

Yes, when you refer to screen time as trying out directional indicators then i agree with you.

Quoting pipmutt
hehe, pattern analysis is bullshit is it, I see. How about Fibonacci?
Generalizing again, sorry. What i meant was that when people learn about the specific patterns they "learn" to take the mathematical probability trade. Like: "when you see pinbar go short and stop 1-2 pip above the shadow". When you think about the REASONING of those so called patterns then this becomes less bullshit ..much less ...and the reasoning could be explained in terms of order flow.

Fibonacci ? No, no indis for me. Well, i do use (sometimes...or rarely) the so called 50% level, but i wouldn't say i'm using fibo...just doing some double measurements at certain places, if u know what i mean.

Quoting pipmutt
You're never going to know every traders motives for doing what they do, and only knowing a small percentage is as useful as knowing none. There aren't any irrational moves, only our lack of knowledge about the rationality behind them. Players aren't an open book, why do you think iceberg orders exist?
Because of my selfish motives i will not debate with you over that topic. This is getting deeper into the order flow analysis.

Let's just agree to disagree.


Quoting pipmutt
I'd never trash anyone's ideas or opinions unless they're exceptionally stupid, if it's working for them then who am I to argue. To be honest it makes a refreshing change to read a thread about something other than some convoluted lame ass indicator or trading strategy!
Cool, and thanks for posting!
  • #325
  • Mar 14, 2010 11:29am Mar 14, 2010 11:29am
I read the first page of Skunny's old thread on here and it's blatantly obvious he was a scam artist. Anytime someone opens up a new thread and says things like "against my better judgment" and "it is entirely possible to trade perfectly" and then in the next post says "no moley quail" exists... what a BS artist and to see how long that thread lived speaks volumes about how gullible people are. That Dialist would defend Skunny speaks volumes about the utility of the vouch system.
  • #326
  • Mar 14, 2010 11:31am Mar 14, 2010 11:31am
Things like Fibs, MA's are just tools, metatrader is a tool to help you visualise price, CNBC is a tool as is IFR. Learning to use these tools is part of the learning curve that many will not have the metal stamina,patience or will to complete.
  • #327
  • Mar 14, 2010 11:47am Mar 14, 2010 11:47am
Quoting chatzi
Things like Fibs, MA's are just tools, metatrader is a tool to help you visualise price, CNBC is a tool as is IFR. Learning to use these tools is part of the learning curve that many will not have the metal stamina,patience or will to complete.
Great I'm glad.
  • #328
  • Mar 14, 2010 11:54am Mar 14, 2010 11:54am
Quoting Deusomega
Great I'm glad.
I can see the drive in you is strong.
  • #329
  • Mar 14, 2010 12:02pm Mar 14, 2010 12:02pm
Quoting pipmutt
This guy I like

Joking aside, I think there are some accomplished traders in this thread but if they want to share their approach I wish they'd just get on and do it in it's entirety rather than dangle carrots of obscure sound bites!
As far as I know there is only one allegedly profitable 'order flow' trader posting regularly in this thread and that is Darkstar; I don't think he intends on sharing his approach in it's entirety here.

The others, for example Scotty, Marsh and Myself are just following promising lines of study. Nothing we say should be taken as rule.
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #330
  • Mar 14, 2010 12:08pm Mar 14, 2010 12:08pm
Quoting Leonlorenzo
As far as I know there is only one allegedly profitable 'order flow' trader posting regularly in this thread and that is Darkstar; I don't think he intends on sharing his approach in it's entirety here.

The others, for example Scotty, Marsh and Myself are just following promising lines of study. Nothing we say should be taken as rule.
To add to this... To understand this stuff takes study and time.. and anyone who would explain a profitable approach to the masses is a fool.
  • #331
  • Mar 14, 2010 12:18pm Mar 14, 2010 12:18pm
Hi fellas,

I am glad to know that DS is contemplating writing a book, everyone please encourage him to proceed on that deal.

I have been starving for a path to take that would hopefully allow me to be 100% committed to the full extent, Im the type that if i doubt something or havent been convinced my mind will not let me blindly follow.....
this battle of methodology and probability have nearly drove me crazy.... that is why I became purely convinced in the "order-flow" market inefficiency mystery method and had become a ,Darkstar and anything/one to support this "way", follower.

I was fortunate enough to meet someone from ff who had claimed to know of certain market ineff. , but chose not to trade them. I personally thought he was full of it... I went to meet him and his dad and learned that he and his father had been trading along time, his father still traded one such method, but this guy simply traded the trend and had methods for keeping risk constantly in check. He kinda brought me down off my quest too some degree. He said that the "only way to trade and make money short term day trading is with a market inefff. " And the only way to make it for 10-15-20 yrs is to trade long term. due to the fact not many can keep their emotions or are willing to keep their emotions in check(due to the life costing factor) at such an elevated level.

I hope to learn from him as we go,but I am more convinced than ever that I am the dog catching the bus, If i could catch it I probably wouldnt know what to do with it and for sure couldnt maintain it..... I mean DS is the man no doubt I have read everything he said, and basically what he is saying is " yeah all that stuff i said is true 20-30 pips (for sure pips) 12.5% high expectancy, risk adjusted return 1:3. but count the cost to maintain it....


I would still like to experience the short term inefficiency, but I think now i have let go enough to consider a more long term approach, partly due to Mr-T and now mostly due to DS, Thanks
  • #332
  • Mar 14, 2010 12:19pm Mar 14, 2010 12:19pm
Quoting Deusomega
To add to this... To understand this stuff takes study and time.. and anyone who would explain a profitable approach to the masses is a fool.
I completely agree with what your saying, but that leaves a question: What are we doing in this thread? We want to know what DS knows, but if he tells us anything here we will consider it useless.

I suppose there is a difference between sharing an approach and a specific inefficiency. The former being the more (but not completely) sane thing to do.

I like you Deusomega.
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #333
  • Mar 14, 2010 12:20pm Mar 14, 2010 12:20pm
The problem with Order Flow trading is you need to know where the stops are or the option barriers are. Using IFR is a good way to do this, but it costs, using Oandas is ok but their interface is horrible. Theres also the other way, of trying to think like a typical trader and visualise where the stops would be.
  • #334
  • Mar 14, 2010 12:25pm Mar 14, 2010 12:25pm
Quoting Leonlorenzo
I completely agree with what your saying, but that leaves a question: What are we doing in this thread? We want to know what DS knows, but if he tells us anything here we will consider it useless.

I suppose there is a difference between sharing an approach and a specific inefficiency. The former being the more (but not completely) sane thing to do.

I like you Deusomega.
I've considered that as well . What I'm doing is reading DS posts and otheres and seeing if anything clicks in my head to make me look at something differently or think differently. I think overall DS is a pretty good guy and he doesn't mind dropping subtle clues. I'm working off the premise that if he mentored someone then he can't be a total asshole haha. So I think we are primarily fishing for things that strike a nerve in our brains that make us think differently or reread something.

That's what I am doing at least. DS is a nice guy but definitely not stupid. As another example I often enjoy the posts of Smjones. But he is like DS in that he is not stupid to reveal full explanations and systems.
  • #335
  • Mar 14, 2010 12:26pm Mar 14, 2010 12:26pm
Quoting chatzi
The problem with Order Flow trading is you need to know where the stops are or the option barriers are. Using IFR is a good way to do this, but it costs, using Oandas is ok but their interface is horrible. Theres also the other way, of trying to think like a typical trader and visualise where the stops would be.
There are other providers of this info too. I'm not the smartest guy in the world but I will exploit the heck out of places where it's a contest of who wants to work harder and spend more time searching.
  • #336
  • Mar 14, 2010 12:42pm Mar 14, 2010 12:42pm
Quoting Deusomega
There are other providers of this info too. I'm not the smartest guy in the world but I will exploit the heck out of places where it's a contest of who wants to work harder and spend more time searching.
I got a feed and parsed it so it drew the stops and options on my Ninjatrader chart. I also developed my own client to view the news items as the interface of my source was not my liking. See pic.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: tradingnews.png Size: 88 KB
  • #337
  • Mar 14, 2010 12:45pm Mar 14, 2010 12:45pm
Quoting Leonlorenzo
I completely agree with what your saying, but that leaves a question: What are we doing in this thread? We want to know what DS knows, but if he tells us anything here we will consider it useless.
I am pretty sure you're not the only one. I'm not really sure what this thread was originally about (probably the path of ScottyB trying to figure out the how's and why's and trying to ask the right questions...thumbs up for u, dude) but currently it has turned to a concrete topic and to a concrete person. No need to mention those

Some of you are already feeling angry, some are more patient but most of you here wait for something you'll never get. At least here in this thread...but that doesn't bother you...You hope that "once a mentor always a mentor" will kick in and you'll be the next lucky one. And maybe you're right. Time will tell.

BUT, don't forget, even the slightest clues can mean a lot when you are ready to get them. And that's what this thread is all about and i thank the quality post writers for that.

Quoting Leonlorenzo
I suppose there is a difference between sharing an approach and a specific inefficiency. The former being the more (but not completely) sane thing to do.
don't suppose, be sure. It's exactly what you said. But remember, while the former is the more sane thing to do, the latter is what MOST here are after and what could very well be your "get rich quick" strategy
  • #338
  • Mar 14, 2010 12:55pm Mar 14, 2010 12:55pm
Quoting lumesh
just to keep this going, may i discuss this topic a little further with you ?
it great to see other people opinions about how they see things.

hmm, i am curious to know where does your general market knowledge come from ? Also, how do you better understand trading the market ? Are you refering to books ? or public opinions/articles/views ? It seems that theory is more important to you than practice ? That theory is more important than experience ?
I don't want to hijack this thread so I'll make this my last post on the subject, you're welcome to continue in another thread though if you like.

Theory don't mean diddly without practical experience, believe me I've paid my dues as a result of my own obstinacy and stupidity! If I knew then what I know now....

The vast majority of trading wisdom is actually just plain common sense when you boil it all down. When I'd finally had enough of losing money I capitulated and decided to try and find out what the pros do. What I learned surprised me, they're no better at picking direction than we are, they don't have a magic wand or crystal balls! It was a bit disconcerting because I assumed that must mean retail trading was rigged, an insiders game, or just a total scam to line the pockets of bucket shops. I was wrong.

The knowledge came from reading about trading and markets (on and offline), watching financial news channels and interviews with pros, and a lot of logical and lateral thinking. If, like the pros, I couldn't pick direction with any degree of certainty then how could I make money, they obviously were. A few months and some time spent in all-night cafes near the financial district talking to the odd trader here and there (when you get them started you can't shut them up!) gave me more clues than the years I had spent in front of a computer screen watching price moving up and down on a chart. It put trading into perspective, and put an end to my search for the directionally predictive grail!

Quoting lumesh
When you think about the REASONING of those so called patterns then this becomes less bullshit http://cdn.forexfactory.com/images/s.../yim/happy.gif..much less http://cdn.forexfactory.com/images/s.../yim/happy.gif...and the reasoning could be explained in terms of order flow.
Do I need to know the reasoning behind why certain patterns produce certain reactions in price? No not really, as long as the probability of a profitable outcome exists it's enough for me. If everyone is selling USD and a pattern suggests I buy USD do I analyse why I think others are selling? No, I trust my own judgement and analysis, if I'm wrong then I have a stop to protect equity. I felt like the only one buying dollars towards the end of last year, everyone laughed at me saying "I'll take the other side", but was I influenced? Nope, I didn't even want to know their motives.

I never knock anyone elses trading strategy or analysis simply because it's just about the least important aspect of consistently profitable trading. If it works for them then how can it be wrong?
  • #339
  • Mar 14, 2010 12:58pm Mar 14, 2010 12:58pm
Quoting Leonlorenzo
As far as I know there is only one allegedly profitable 'order flow' trader posting regularly in this thread and that is Darkstar; I don't think he intends on sharing his approach in it's entirety here.

The others, for example Scotty, Marsh and Myself are just following promising lines of study. Nothing we say should be taken as rule.
It's an interesting subject, I guess I can understand DS's reluctance to divulge the whole deal, he's thought-provoking which is enough.
  • #340
  • Mar 14, 2010 1:01pm Mar 14, 2010 1:01pm
nice way to end the discussion...

Great post. thanks.



Quoting pipmutt
I don't want to hijack this thread so I'll make this my last post on the subject, you're welcome to continue in another thread though if you like.

Theory don't mean diddly without practical experience, believe me I've paid my dues as a result of my own obstinacy and stupidity! If I knew then what I know now....

The vast majority of trading wisdom is actually just plain common sense when you boil it all down. When I'd finally had enough of losing money I capitulated and decided to try and find out what the pros do. What I learned surprised...
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