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Stating The Obvious and The Quest For Wisdom

  • #121
  • Mar 10, 2010 1:45pm Mar 10, 2010 1:45pm
Quoting Scotty B
I zoomed out and found strong daily S/R right where you entered and the trend had been up. I'm wondering if you are using simple TA that we all know along with your understanding of order flow acting as a filter or confirmation tool that it's time to enter.
I zoomed out to the monthly and saw a nice Pinbar (ibfx feed). Is it safe to say that buyers came in, in a big way to form the bar? So what was it about this area or level that got buyers interested and creating the pinbar? I guess DS got in early in the pinbar formation, but even waiting for the break of the pin would have put some pips in your pocket, but nothing compared to getting in early.

One would have to be super confident in the direction to sit through 200 pips of draw down, well at least I would.
Don't wish it were easier, wish you were better. ~ Jim Rohn
  • #122
  • Mar 10, 2010 1:52pm Mar 10, 2010 1:52pm
Quoting Deusomega
Hmm sorry to be sarcastic but maybe you could explain your puzzle...
overanalyzing ... philosophize about every little detail of trading ... this and that, edge here, random walk here ... im just not the thinking person, i do and see what i get ... like the post above, i could think about all the implications it could have, the impressions it would make on other people etc etc. but no .. i wrote it down and i pressed submit and now its up to the wind, i let it go, see where it leads me
Invincibility lies in the defence, the possibility of victory in the attack
  • #123
  • Mar 10, 2010 1:56pm Mar 10, 2010 1:56pm
Quoting silverheat
overanalyzing ... philosophize about every little detail of trading ... this and that, edge here, random walk here ... im just not the thinking person, i do and see what i get ... like the post above, i could think about all the implications it could have, the impressions it would make on other people etc etc. but no .. i wrote it down and i pressed submit and now its up to the wind, i let it go, see where it leads me
Your post reminded me of a Jim Rogers Quote (not exact, but...). A smart person can learn to trade is 3-5 years and a really smart person in 10-15.
Don't wish it were easier, wish you were better. ~ Jim Rohn
  • #124
  • Mar 10, 2010 1:56pm Mar 10, 2010 1:56pm
Quoting silverheat
overanalyzing ... philosophize about every little detail of trading ... this and that, edge here, random walk here ... im just not the thinking person, i do and see what i get ... like the post above, i could think about all the implications it could have, the impressions it would make on other people etc etc. but no .. i wrote it down and i pressed submit and now its up to the wind, i let it go, see where it leads me
Well to be sure something written without much thought won't have any meaningful impression except maybe using up a few bytes of space.The wind has a hard time carrying garbage.
  • #125
  • Mar 10, 2010 2:10pm Mar 10, 2010 2:10pm
Quoting LasVahGoose
Your post reminded me of a Jim Rogers Quote (not exact, but...). A smart person can learn to trade is 3-5 years and a really smart person in 10-15.
I understand what is meant to be conveyed by quotes like these... but I find them disingenuous at the very least. A great majority of the most famous traders in the world are extremely intelligent. Almost all the famous ones went to Yale, Harvard, MIT, etc.
  • #126
  • Mar 10, 2010 2:31pm Mar 10, 2010 2:31pm
Quoting Deusomega
Almost all the famous ones went to Yale, Harvard, MIT, etc.
And this couldn't be attributed to the fact that Harvard, Yale, MIT students are the vast majority of kids that get a chance to work on Wall Street?

Don't get me wrong, I'm much more on the intellectual side of the fence than the 'fly by the wind' side, but you don't need a degree from MIT to be a successful trader. There are plenty of successful traders that aren't famous simply because they make money for themselves and not some bank or investment firm.

Aside from that, I find interruptions like silver's to be just that: interruptions; occasionally they can provide a laugh, but that would require it be funny or witty...
  • #127
  • Mar 10, 2010 2:37pm Mar 10, 2010 2:37pm
This makes no sense, the guy who had all his posts and journal deleted to protect his method is now back and giving pointers.

Don't misunderstand me, I've followed your stuff since 2008 and think your responsible for the most thought provoking and BS free posts Ive read (on trading) so this is no kind of attack. I just don't get it.
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #128
  • Mar 10, 2010 2:40pm Mar 10, 2010 2:40pm
Quoting jpat1023
And this couldn't be attributed to the fact that Harvard, Yale, MIT students are the vast majority of kids that get a chance to work on Wall Street?

Don't get me wrong, I'm much more on the intellectual side of the fence than the 'fly by the wind' side, but you don't need a degree from MIT to be a successful trader....
My point is that the more intelligent individual with the same drive, motivation and determination will have an easier time than vice versa. My point is that the quote really doesn't have much substance because it's highly individual. But to act like someone smarter will have a higher chance of being paralyzed by analysis is a pretty crappy generalization. Because the last time I checked most of the individuals in the history books have been both highly driven and very intelligent.

But your point is definitely valid.
  • #129
  • Mar 10, 2010 2:44pm Mar 10, 2010 2:44pm
Quoting Leonlorenzo
This makes no sense, the guy who had all his posts and journal deleted to protect his method is now back and giving pointers.

Don't misunderstand me, I've followed your stuff since 2008 and think your responsible for the most thought provoking and BS free posts Ive read (on trading) so this is no kind of attack. I just don't get it.
Why did you get rid of Caesar
  • #130
  • Mar 10, 2010 2:46pm Mar 10, 2010 2:46pm
Quoting Deusomega
My point is that the more intelligent individual with the same drive, motivation and determination will have an easier time than vice versa....
Agreed.
I was simply addressing your point about ivy league schools, in that if 9 out of every 10 traders on wall street is from an ivy school, then it would follow that most famous traders come from an ivy school.
This point doesn't discount your point about intelligence, we are in agreement there...
  • #131
  • Mar 10, 2010 2:49pm Mar 10, 2010 2:49pm
Quoting Deusomega
Why did you get rid of Caesar
I decided to lighten up a little and change to Berlusconi. He is a funny guy after all. Next up is Niccolo Machiavelli.
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #132
  • Mar 10, 2010 2:59pm Mar 10, 2010 2:59pm
First off, Darkstar, thank you for your help and for continuing to contribute.

Surprised to hear order flow trading described as a mindset. I was taken in by this post, and like FXEZ, I didn't want to reveal something that Darkstar appeared unwilling to share. In any event, he had mentioned it in this thread. They used to have an order book page which I had bookmarked, but that page is gone now. Go to the technolgogy / trading interface page for a look at their disclosure of market depth. KFX Forex, who I know nothing about, is the only broker I've seen that offers access to the HotSpot FXi platform.

Is the whole idea that we need to look past the charts for order flow information a red herring? Gaston said he doesn't trade off a chart, but he also recommended the James16 Group twice, which is where Darkstar's former student, mbqb11 hangs out and is himself an instructor.

I'm not promoting the James16 Group as I am not a member. But go to the thread, do a search for 'order flow' and read some of the posts from the second and third week of September 2009. Maybe there's some clues there that will put order flow in perspective.

As for the chart, the first entry looks like stops were triggered under 8800 after the rapid fall from 8900 giving the buyers a better price, but I don't know why there wasn't an exit at some point in the next dozen bars, or why future buys above 8800 were anticipated a week later. The second buy looks like he was waiting to buy under 8600 and that when there appeared to be too many limit orders to take out the round number, and the buyers were steady climbing on board, that it was time to get on. Again, the reasons for passing up an opportunity to exit at the first penetration of 8700, or when closing in on 8800, elude me.
  • #133
  • Mar 10, 2010 3:13pm Mar 10, 2010 3:13pm
Quoting Leonlorenzo
This makes no sense, the guy who had all his posts and journal deleted to protect his method is now back and giving pointers.

Don't misunderstand me, I've followed your stuff since 2008 and think your responsible for the most thought provoking and BS free posts Ive read (on trading) so this is no kind of attack. I just don't get it.
Just couldn't help yourself, could you Leon? We aren't even in double digit page numbers and your already questioning motives...

I am definitely interested in hearing the response, if it comes......but I can say from experience that sometimes it is hard find people around you to converse with about this subject, so coming here can provide some friendly communication among people with the same interests. After a while, you may feel you 'know' some people, or at least their persona here, and don't mind pointing them in the right direction.

Another thing I have noticed, explaining things to someone else can lead you into your own further insights...so as long as one doesn't just completely spell out their method, like those who browse the 'systems' section are desperately hoping for, its a win-win situation for both parties.
  • #134
  • Mar 10, 2010 3:19pm Mar 10, 2010 3:19pm
Quoting Leonlorenzo
This makes no sense, the guy who had all his posts and journal deleted to protect his method is now back and giving pointers.

Don't misunderstand me, I've followed your stuff since 2008 and think your responsible for the most thought provoking and BS free posts Ive read (on trading) so this is no kind of attack. I just don't get it.
The things I was doing back in 2005-07 were short-term high yield inefficiencies that couldn't withstand large numbers of other traders emulating me. The things I do now and that scotty is thinking about aren't as susceptible to the same limitations. The longer your time horizon, the less impact per pip liquidity has on your profitability.

Regardless, this misses the point. I have always, and will continue to help people learn how to become profitable traders; so long as doing so doesn't impact my income negatively. Unfortunately, most would be traders don't actually want to learn how to become traders. They want parameters for an ea that will churn out money while they laze away on some beach. Those parameters don’t exist but no matter how many times you tell them so, it doesn't matter. There going to keep trying to find them.

The thread that was pulled would have given the EA monkeys their parameters. Then it would have been tweaked and twisted and eventually mangled to the point of uselessness (like every other system on this forum) because it takes a trader to know when the rules should be broken. The real profits are in the exceptions to the rules. In short, it's not the method, it’s the trader.

The trader IS the edge.
  • #135
  • Mar 10, 2010 3:25pm Mar 10, 2010 3:25pm
Quoting Darkstar
Unfortunately, most would be traders don't actually want to learn how to become traders. They want parameters for an ea that will churn out money while they laze away on some beach. Those parameters don’t exist but no matter how many times you tell them so, it doesn't matter. There going to keep trying to find them.
Yes and this is blatantly apparent when the number of people browsing the 'systems' section is constantly 5 times as many in the 'trading discussion' section. If there is good information on this forum, which there is, it is to be found in 'trading discussion'......I guess that's about right though, for every 5 people here, maybe 1 actually wants to learn how to trade...meh, its probably more like 20 to 1.

Quoting DS
The real profits are in the exceptions to the rules. In short, it's not the method, it’s the trader.
The trader IS the edge.
Nice post.
  • #136
  • Edited 4:03pm Mar 10, 2010 3:45pm | Edited 4:03pm
Quoting Darkstar
The longer your time horizon, the less impact per pip liquidity has on your profitability.
Yes, but I thought you were from the school of thought that inefficiencies only exist in the short term. I'm not sure if there was a particular post that made me think this or just a general feeling I got from reading your posts.
Quote
Regardless, this misses the point. I have always, and will continue to help people learn how to become profitable traders; so long as doing so doesn't impact my income negatively.
If you ever want to recommend some reading then my inbox always has space.
Quote
it takes a trader to know when the rules should be broken. The real profits are in the exceptions to the rules. In short, it's not the method, it’s the trader. The trader IS the edge.
I usually have a fit when someone says this, but they're usually implying that becoming the edge involves positive thinking, rosary beads and a trip to church. In this case, I'm guessing the prospective trader needs market time and market knowledge/input in large quantities to become 'the edge'. Lack of time is the problem for the (small) majority of us who are serious here.
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #137
  • Mar 10, 2010 3:45pm Mar 10, 2010 3:45pm
Quoting Darkstar
I have always, and will continue to help people learn how to become profitable traders; so long as doing so doesn't impact my income negatively.


It is much appreciated and it's always nice to get nudged a little when we start to stray off course or lose focus.
Don't wish it were easier, wish you were better. ~ Jim Rohn
  • #138
  • Mar 10, 2010 5:19pm Mar 10, 2010 5:19pm
Quoting jpat1023
Yes and this is blatantly apparent when the number of people browsing the 'systems' section is constantly 5 times as many in the 'trading discussion' section. If there is good information on this forum, which there is, it is to be found in 'trading discussion'......I guess that's about right though, for every 5 people here, maybe 1 actually wants to learn how to trade...meh, its probably more like 20 to 1.
This may be true but idk. It seems there is as much a lack of good profitable trading mentors that are willing to spend the time necessary to teach than eager students. But speaking about the systems forum... well that's people for you.
  • #139
  • Mar 10, 2010 10:05pm Mar 10, 2010 10:05pm
Quoting Leonlorenzo
In this case, I'm guessing the prospective trader needs market time and market knowledge/input in large quantities to become 'the edge'. Lack of time is the problem for the (small) majority of us who are serious here.

This is what most don't understand. Trading is like anything else, it takes time and effort to become proficient at it.
  • #140
  • Mar 10, 2010 10:50pm Mar 10, 2010 10:50pm
Quoting Leonlorenzo
I usually have a fit when someone says this, but they're usually implying that becoming the edge involves positive thinking, rosary beads and a trip to church. In this case, I'm guessing the prospective trader needs market time and market knowledge/input in large quantities to become 'the edge'. Lack of time is the problem for the (small) majority of us who are serious here.
how do you explain ... a person with no time (full time job, wife, kid), "no intelligence" (no education), doesn't put much thinking in it, makes money month in and month out with demo trading (with just looking at the chart and sensing), but every time he puts real money on the line, he doesn't need a week to blow the account ... i know such a person
Invincibility lies in the defence, the possibility of victory in the attack
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