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Could 10:1 be the new leverage in US Forex?

  • #501
  • Feb 6, 2010 7:26am Feb 6, 2010 7:26am
Quoting Jade Gate
From Craig Pirrong, Professor of Finance, and Energy Markets Director for the Global Energy Management Institute at the Bauer College of Business of the University of Houston, speaking on the parrallel CFTC proposal for tightening in energy futures -

"On the one hand, Congress clearly expected action; indeed, I strongly suspect that Gensler had to promise that he would act on energy position limits to get the job in the face of skepticism from Bernie Sanders and some others in the Senate. On the other hand, it eventually dawned on the Commissioners......
Ah....

Thank you for this....

Now it totally makes sense and should be broadcast through the entire forex network.

This totally explains why something so incomprehensibe is on the table.

Unfortunately, FXDC is probably aware of this and chooses to ignore it, rather giving pablum responses and not standing up to the crux of the issue.

How can we put this in the faces of the FXDC and ask why they are not addressing this? THIS IS THE ACTIONABLE ISSUE and it should be taken into a court.

[i]I want an answer.....can we get a class action suit going or should we pound the FXDC idiots to cowboy up?
Scarlett
  • #502
  • Edited 9:50am Feb 6, 2010 9:22am | Edited 9:50am
Quoting Scarlett;3438050.... <br /> [i
I want an answer.....can we get a class action suit going or should we pound the FXDC idiots to cowboy up?
[/i]

Class action is the only way...The patsies have already said that they want to be regulated...read the posting by Jason on their statement,
http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost...&postcount=469

Also, the patsies don't have enough courage to protest themselves, they pass the protest to traders...

"Adding to this vulnerability is a worrying trend of traders who are developing an “antiregulatory” attitude when it comes to forex regulation"... "This attitude will harden should the 10% margin rule pass thus turning the CFTC into the bad guys in the minds of many traders"

No spine whatsever, it's the traders that are antiregulatory, not the patsies.

The begging patsies...they don't even mention the great disparity between futures margins and the proposed spot margin in their begging plea. At the very least, if the CFTC wants to regulate both then regulate them the same...but the Patsies could not muster enough courage to even say that, it is OK to them to be discriminated against...."it's the traders that are antiregulatory" according to the FXDC. They are going to die a slow death, be merciful and kill them quickly so they don't suffer too much pain, transfer overseas now.

PS. Jade, thanks for a great artilce, what I have been saying all along.

[i]"Perhaps this is best seen as a backdoor approach to push trading from the OTC market onto exchanges. Not a good idea."
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1829...ng-otc-markets
  • #503
  • Feb 6, 2010 9:48am Feb 6, 2010 9:48am
Quoting wwwin
[/i]

Class action is the only way...The patsies have already said that they want to be regulated...read the posting by Jason on their statement,
http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost...&postcount=469

Also, the patsies don't have enough courage to protest themselves, they pass the protest to traders...

"Adding to this vulnerability is a worrying trend of traders who are developing an “antiregulatory” attitude when it comes to forex regulation"... [i]"This attitude will harden should...
I have written to Craig Pirrong,author of this illuminating article.

I asked him if, in his case, his livelihood depended on maintaining the current leverage, what would his next "action" step be.

I would like his opinion and I will let you know if he answers me.
Scarlett
  • #504
  • Edited 12:38pm Feb 6, 2010 11:25am | Edited 12:38pm
Quoting Scarlett
I have written to Craig Pirrong,author of this illuminating article.

I asked him if, in his case, his livelihood depended on maintaining the current leverage, what would his next "action" step be.

I would like his opinion and I will let you know if he answers me.
Great idea...I emailed him too on the pork of the farm bill.

He ends the article with "In brief: Laws, sausages–and CFTC proposals."

I believe the sausages is reference to the pork on the farm bill.
I asked him a question on his thoughts on "....a contract of sale of a commodity for future delivery... " being able to being challenged as not spot. If you mean spot then say spot...not "for future delivery" . Will post reply if he answers.

Here is where CFTC claims jurisdition http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/h...2----000-.html
Section 13101 (pork) of Farm Bill, http://www.usda.gov/documents/Bill_6124.pdf

(B) Agreements, contracts, and transactions in retail foreign currency
(i) This chapter applies to, and the Commission shall have jurisdiction over, an agreement, contract, or transaction in foreign currency that—
(I) is a contract of sale of a commodity for future delivery (or an option on such a contract) or an option (other than an option executed or traded on a national securities exchange registered pursuant to section 6(a) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 (15 U.S.C. 78f(a))); and
(II) is offered to, or entered into with, a person that is not an eligible contract participant, unless the counterparty, or the person offering to be the counterparty, of the person is— (aa) a financial institution;
(bb)

-------------------------------------------
and to answer Cosgrove's question about CIti, it appears that financial institutions are exempt from this (WAKE UP FXDC, before your house burns down)..therefore if the purpose is to avoid speculators from distorting prices,,,or to save the traders from themselves....it does not serve any purpose as retail would still be able to trade thru Citi (50 to 1) or the likes with US financial institution.
....Where is Henry Paulson when we need him?...he would make the fx retail brokers banks in no time to be exempt if he had some insider connection there...LOL, remember Goldman Sachs becoming a bank within 2 days of applying, so they could get TARP funds. What a country.
  • #505
  • Feb 6, 2010 1:56pm Feb 6, 2010 1:56pm
Quoting wwwin
Great idea...I emailed him too on the pork of the farm bill.

He ends the article with "In brief: Laws, sausages–and CFTC proposals."

I believe the sausages is reference to the pork on the farm bill.
I asked him a question on his thoughts on "....a contract of sale of a commodity for future delivery... " being able to being challenged as not spot. If you mean spot then say spot...not "for future delivery" . Will post reply if he answers.

Here is where CFTC claims jurisdition http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/h...2----000-.html
Section...
I emailed him from a google search: [email protected]

Thanks....
Scarlett
  • #506
  • Edited 11:49pm Feb 6, 2010 2:31pm | Edited 11:49pm
There is more than one way (regulation) to address consumer protections.

A not insignificant issue for Retail Forex is the lack of quality independent free advice (that's why the industry needs a Consumer Advice Bureau). One has to ask how many traders would have ventured into the bucket shop shark infested waters if they had easy access to high quality independent advice complete with benchmark performance indicators and quality seals so that consumers could compare offerings and services to suit their particular needs before the event.

Tightening regulations is an "after the fact" response to a structural flaw. The CFTC's complaint traffic flow is a symptom of a systemic problem. Many of the CFTC's registration, disclosure and capitalization requirements in the new proposal will address the legal/regulatory background (those elements are good, excellent in fact), but the rest is injecting a good measure of independence into the system so that consumers are on a level playing field from day one of venturing into this market.

Progressing the financial literacy of consumers (preferably by enabling/empowering consumers themselves to assist other consumers) is the other equally important part of this policy issue.
  • #507
  • Feb 6, 2010 3:11pm Feb 6, 2010 3:11pm
Quoting Scarlett
I emailed him from a google search: [email protected]

Thanks....
Great, I will email there too! This is the email that I sent:
-----------------------------------------------------------
Great article on CFTC and OTC regulation you wrote.

Have question, what is your feeling about the CFTC being abled to be challenged in Court about their jurisdiction over spot forex after the farm bill....it seems to me that "for future delivery" can be challenged as not spot...if Congress wanted spot they should say spot, not "for future delivery'"
Thanks again for a great article..
There is a discussion about it here
www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=21...

------------------------------------
(B) Agreements, contracts, and transactions in retail foreign currency
(i) This chapter applies to, and the Commission shall have jurisdiction over, an agreement, contract, or transaction in foreign currency that—
(I) is a contract of sale of a commodity for future delivery (or an option on such a contract) or an option (other than an option executed or traded on a national securities exchange registered pursuant to section 6(a) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 (15 U.S.C. 78f(a))); and
(II) is offered to, or entered into with, a person that is not an eligible contract participant, unless the counterparty, or the person offering to be the counterparty, of the person is— (aa) a financial institution;
(bb)
  • #508
  • Edited 3:44pm Feb 6, 2010 3:25pm | Edited 3:44pm
Quoting Jade Gate
There is more than one way (regulation) to address consumer protections.

A not insignifant issue for Retail Forex is the lack of quality independent free advice (that's why the industry needs a Consumer Advice Bureau). One has to ask how many traders would have ventured into the bucket shop shark infested waters if they had easy access to high quality independent advice complete with benchmark performance indicators and quality seals so that consumers could compare offerings and services to suit their particular needs before the event.

Tightening...
I believe that this is to please political masters and nothing else.
"indeed, I strongly suspect that Gensler had to promise that he would act on energy position limits to get the job in the face of skepticism from Bernie Sanders and some others in the Senate."
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1829...ng-otc-markets

It seems that some Senators or Congressmen believe that spike in Oil was caused by speculators, even though there is no evidence to that effect... Gensler got the confirmation in part b/c of these congressmen ...now he has to deliver....but wait, he just realized....if he has no control over OTC instruments he cannot control positions of OTC traders...so they need control over OTC...but not just energy but over all OTC instruments so their jurisdiction over spot cannot be challendged....so that includes regulating OTC forex too....
Isn't that a shame, that for Gensler to keep his job, a US industry will vanish, thousands will lose jobs, and we are forced to go overseas...just so Gensler and his cronies can keep the cushy jobs.

Meet your hero http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gensler
  • #509
  • Feb 6, 2010 3:33pm Feb 6, 2010 3:33pm
Quoting Jade Gate
There is more than one way (regulation) to address consumer protections.

A not insignifant issue for Retail Forex is the lack of quality independent free advice (that's why the industry needs a Consumer Advice Bureau). One has to ask how many traders would have ventured into the bucket shop shark infested waters if they had easy access to high quality independent advice complete with benchmark performance indicators and quality seals so that consumers could compare offerings and services to suit their particular needs before the event.

Tightening...

Firstpoint: No one cares except maybe your mother about how well you trade. No one is going to "progress financial literacy" by monitoring you and that alone is an insult to autonomous adults. I don't recall any discussion of "progessing" financial literacy in the futures or stock market and certainly people with 401 K plans, etc. lose thousands each year due to a lack of literacy. Why don't the regulatory bodies go pester them?

Second point: as someone here remarked "what's the matter with losses?" That's the name of the game! Those hard headed or lazy folks who take their account for a joy ride and lose it will know better next time. Yep, that's how you learn. If they don't do their homework and educate themselves then quel dommage...I don't feel sorry for them.

This intrusive nanny state where every agency tries to have us believe that they are Mrs. Doubtfire is nauseating, quite frankly. And, in point of fact, they are parasites with a crony agenda and like mostly every other big bureaucracy, they are not "lookin' out for you, kid" and they never will.
Scarlett
  • #510
  • Edited 4:28pm Feb 6, 2010 3:58pm | Edited 4:28pm
Quoting Scarlett
Firstpoint: No one cares except maybe your mother about how well you trade. No one is going to "progress financial literacy" by monitoring you and that alone is an insult to autonomous adults. I don't recall any discussion of "progessing" financial literacy in the futures or stock market and certainly people with 401 K plans, etc. lose thousands each year due to a lack of literacy. Why don't the regulatory bodies go pester them?
On the contrary, someone does care and they have already put their money on the line to progress the financial literacy agenda in recognition of the important role this plays for consumers/traders/investors

http://www.mymoney.gov/agency.shtml

Now all they need to do is marry the whole infrastructure framework together via a CAB (Consumer Advice Bureau). The CFTC already works in partnership with the agency concerned - Commissioner Jill Sommers has the brief as CFTC designee to the Financial Literacy and Education Commission.

http://cftc.gov/aboutthecftc/commiss.../jsommers.html

Perhaps Commissioner Sommers would be willing to be the regulators designee on a management board for a Retail Forex CAB? A potential management structure for a CAB board being one nominee from industry, one nominee from the regulators, and 3-4 experienced retail traders without commercial agendas of their own to work. It's important that the management structure for such an organisation is -

- independent of both government and the industry machinery (funded by a small industry levy taken from dealer profits)
- has majority representation from a cross-section of consumers/traders
- works in partnership with other industry stakeholders.
  • #511
  • Feb 7, 2010 12:03am Feb 7, 2010 12:03am
Quoting Jade Gate
On the contrary, someone does care and they have already put their money on the line to progress the financial literacy agenda in recognition of the important role this plays for consumers/traders/investors

http://www.mymoney.gov/agency.shtml

Now all they need to do is marry the whole infrastructure framework together via a CAB (Consumer Advice Bureau). The CFTC already works in partnership with the agency concerned - Commissioner Jill Sommers has the brief as CFTC designee to the Financial Literacy and Education Commission.

http://cftc.gov/aboutthecftc/commiss.../jsommers.html...
Well I am not so sure that an educational campaign by a regulator, or any educational campaign that its shoved down your throat, would have impact on your trading results, that's what demos are for, but if it makes you feel good, by all means embrace it, but the world is not so pretty. I tend to side with Scarlett and think that they are only interested in their political life...
I would be interested though, in finding out which commissioners are on each side of the fence, as the article you posted states that the commissioners are split, at least on the position number limitation issue with regards to energy
  • #512
  • Feb 7, 2010 12:43am Feb 7, 2010 12:43am
Quoting wwwin
Well I am not so sure that an educational camgpain by a regulator would have impact on your trading results, but if it makes you feel good, by all means embrace it, but the world is not so pretty. I tend to side with Scarlett and think that they are only interested in their political life...
I would be interested though, to find out which commissioners are on each side of the fence, as the article you posted states that the commissioners are split, at least on the position number limitation issue with regards to energy
It wouldn't be an education campaign by a regulator.... that's why the CAB needs to be independent of both government and industry. Traders tend not to trust either government or industry (unfortunate but that's the reality), but traders do tend to trust the advice of other traders who are in the same boat and equally concerned about factual good quality (impartial) information.

The CAB would be a first point of call and information portal for retail traders. It would hopefully act as a guide-post to steer traders in the direction of quality industry providers. This hopefully would absorb 90% the CFTC's complaint workload, simply by nipping the problems in the bud. A win for the CFTC, a win for the industry, a win for traders and a win for the politicians.

As for education linked to leverage, that is potentially another issue for a CAB to address. There certainly needs to be some consistency (if not condensing) of the information that is out there already to distill it into the knowledge base that matters most. Dealers have been making some significant efforts to improve trader education however, from my perusal of those courses, three things stand out.

1. The content frequently overloads traders with irrelevant information.
2. The content frequently does not mention the trading information that matters most.
3. The courses are delivered by economists (not educators) schooled and blooded in the industry proper - their perspective, agendas and trading regime are often quite different to the perspective, agendas and trading regime of retail traders without an industry background.

What is important to note, is that the political will (read funding that has legs) already exists to improve trader education. There is genuine real potential to harness that goodwill and make it work for the benefit of all retail traders.
  • #513
  • Edited 11:25am Feb 7, 2010 12:58am | Edited 11:25am
Quoting Jade Gate
...It would hopefully act as a guide-post to steer traders in the direction of quality industry providers...
Well I hope you are right, but if our hero Gensler has his way, it would only serve the 10% of traders that don't go offshore...
By the way, here are some interesting tidbits on our hero...

"As the Treasury Department’s undersecretary for domestic finance in the last two years of the Clinton administration, Gensler found himself in the position of overseeing policies in the areas of U.S. financial markets, debt management, financial services, and community development. Gensler advocated the passage of the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000, which exempted credit default swaps and other derivatives from regulation."

In March 2009, Senator Bernie Sanders (I-VT) attempted to block his nomination to head the Commodity Futures Trading Commission. A statement from Sanders’ office said that Gensler “had worked with Sen. Phil Gramm and Alan Greenspan to exempt credit default swaps from regulation, which led to the collapse of AIG and has resulted in the largest taxpayer bailout in US history.” He also accused Gensler of working to deregulate electronic energy trading, which led to the downfall of Enron, and supporting the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which allowed American banks to become “too big to fail.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gensler

Seems that the boy is against regulation but now needs to please some of the political masters that are for regulation, had doubts about him, but confirmed him on his not public promise to bring in the OTC markets. Or is this whole OTC being regulated move more "perverse", a word mentioned in the seekingalpha article by the professor, and whether to regulates or not regulate depends on what helps his cronies at the time?

Now why am I not surprised that he worked to have credit default swaps not regulated? After all he is a Goldman Sachs boy...ooooh Goldman Sachs, they always seem to have a Henry Paulson in a governmental position of power in the right place at the right time, don't they?

"Gary Gensler spent 18 years at Goldman Sachs, making partner when he was 30, becoming head of the company’s fixed income and currency trading operations in Tokyo by the mid-’90s"

Now now, formerly worked closely with financial institutions and he is well aware that this proposel will kill retail forex brokers in favor of financial institutions and of course the exchanges. Oh my.

"Gensler is the co-author of a book (with Greg Baer), The Great Mutual Fund Trap. The thrust of the book is that active trading and investing is an inefficient strategy for individual investors, and that individuals should stick with index and exchange traded funds."

OH my, is this the Democratic America that we know?...a bureaucrat trying to shove his personal beliefs, or worse, down your throat??

It seems that the little guy did not fair too well from regulations in which he had a hand in proposing and promoting, and now we are supposed to trust him and give him our guns?

And what is really scary is that they don't need no badges, they are the federales mountain police, the FXDC will just give them their guns and they will leave them in peace and be on their way.
Inserted Video
  • #514
  • Feb 7, 2010 3:01pm Feb 7, 2010 3:01pm
Pirrong has it right... (it appears to be exactly what it seemed from the start)

"Perhaps this is best seen as a backdoor approach to push trading from the OTC market onto exchanges. Not a good idea."

He's also got this right....

"On the other hand, it eventually dawned on the Commissioners that overly restrictive limits would just drive business to OTC, and perhaps overseas; given that Gensler in particular wants to rein in the OTC markets, this would be an extremely perverse outcome."

Perverse indeed. Strangle the OTC market trying to herd it into the exchanges, treat the "little people" (traders) like sheep, patronizingly dictate from on high to tell traders what is good for them (reeks of the same arrogance that brought on the CDS mess) without any regard for what traders might want or what the industry needs to survive, little or no US market left to regulate. Not smart. Business won't fall into the exchanges' lap, it will go off-shore instead.... and already is.

Do hope some modicum of common sense prevails after March 22.
  • #515
  • Feb 7, 2010 3:13pm Feb 7, 2010 3:13pm
Quoting Jade Gate
Pirrong has it right... (it appears to be exactly what it seemed from the start)

"Perhaps this is best seen as a backdoor approach to push trading from the OTC market onto exchanges. Not a good idea."

He's also got this right....

"On the other hand, it eventually dawned on the Commissioners that overly restrictive limits would just drive business to OTC, and perhaps overseas; given that Gensler in particular wants to rein in the OTC markets, this would be an extremely perverse outcome."

Perverse indeed. Strangle the OTC...
How long do you think they will let US traders go offshore? Alpari UK has already closed its doors to US customers. When CFTC becomes a big enough pain in the a-s, offshore will shut us out. My thinking is maybe Hong Kong will let us trade there but CFTC might block us from opening those account. This is what I previously coined, "house arrrest".

PS. Any one who has an Alpari US account, should move it immediately in retaliation for the supreme cowardice and arrogance Alpari has for US traders.
Scarlett
  • #516
  • Feb 7, 2010 3:27pm Feb 7, 2010 3:27pm
My 2c .... I think traders should begin spreading their eggs around.... it costs nothing to open off-shore accounts... look for brokers who are willing to support standard, mini, and micro accounts off-shore. Ask off-shore dealers if they will accept US accounts and do the paperwork ahead of time.

Really don't think the CFTC wants to start messing with the FSA's sovereign jurisdiction. It will go down like a lead balloon if the US regulators start interfering in other countries regulatory framework to land-lock US accounts (not to mention the wail of protest from US traders/the legal fraternity at people being treated like home detention prisoners in their own country.)
  • #517
  • Feb 7, 2010 6:10pm Feb 7, 2010 6:10pm
Quoting Jade Gate
Pirrong has it right... (it appears to be exactly what it seemed from the start)

"Perhaps this is best seen as a backdoor approach to push trading from the OTC market onto exchanges. Not a good idea."

He's also got this right....

"On the other hand, it eventually dawned on the Commissioners that overly restrictive limits would just drive business to OTC, and perhaps overseas; given that Gensler in particular wants to rein in the OTC markets, this would be an extremely perverse outcome."

Perverse indeed. Strangle the OTC...
Yes, Pirrong knows his stuff, what would be the purpose of controlling OTC if 90% moves offshore? This is their game plan, first close the loophole, get clear control of OTC then shut the offshore scape valve. The Federales Mountain Police tested the timidity of the patsies last summer with no hedging and the stop loss crap and found a green light for further action.

Fear is one of the greatest motivators in the history of the world, and we know that the FXDC fears the Federales Mountain Police, BUT, they most likely would fear even more the realization that their demise is very near.

The only way to drive some courage into them is through fear...fear of going out of business being oh so near...Jason has even posted here that they fear a mass exodus to offshore accounts....therefore you need to goad them to action...anybody that is affected by 10 to 1 needs to either transfer the account offshore right now...or if can't transfer open an offshore account and just leave $1 in the US account...this needs to be done en mass and quickly...before the Federales Mountain Police take complete control by closing the loophole...maybe then and only then would the FXDC fight for survival...and this fight is quickly needed. Pleas or statements that traders don't want regulation is not going to accomplish anything. At this point in time Court is the only viable option.
  • #518
  • Feb 7, 2010 7:44pm Feb 7, 2010 7:44pm
Quoting wwwin
[/i]

Class action is the only way...The patsies have already said that they want to be regulated...read the posting by Jason on their statement,
http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost...&postcount=469

Also, the patsies don't have enough courage to protest themselves, they pass the protest to traders...

"Adding to this vulnerability is a worrying trend of traders who are developing an “antiregulatory” attitude when it comes to forex regulation"... [i]"This attitude will harden should...
I wrote this on 4/17/09 on a thread "NO More Hedging..."

The Beginning of Heavy Handed Rules and Regs in Forex
I see that everyone is trying to figure out how this will affect him personally.
I am amazed that no one has commented on the implications of this "Rule".

We are witnessing the beginning of a power grab by the dull witted bureaucrats on behalf of their smug and entitled market manipulators, i.e. the "big boys".

What will it take to make you mad? 1:1 leverage perhaps? Instead of one mini lot controlling 10K so that you can make a living, you will need to put up 10K to trade 10K. Will that be ok?

What NEEDS to happen now is that every American trader moves his/her account to a non NFA broker or an offshore broker while we put together a class action suit against the NFA. We need to call them out and expose who they really represent while they are getting paid their pathetic little salaries from the public trough. The NFA and all of these regulatory bodies are composed of little cave trolls who have neither the guts nor the wit to do what we do. Are we are going to let them destroy something that we have worked hard to master and grown to love?

Class action suit time!

Can someone recommend some non NFA brokers and/or offshore brokers where we can buy some time and trade in peace?

I was ridiculed and hounded off that site by nitwits (including Merlin) who debated whether hedging was a good idea or not and advocating that, yes, traders did need to be saved from themselves! Think they missed the point? Think they'll wake up?

It would begin with Alpari US traders pulling their accounts en masse so that the FXDC can see what that looks like.

Alright, enough bitching...what can we do?
Scarlett
  • #519
  • Edited 7:47pm Feb 7, 2010 7:46pm | Edited 7:47pm
Every time I get on this thread there are a few FF members reading it but there are as many or more non-members reading it here.

Who might they be?
Scarlett
  • #520
  • Feb 7, 2010 9:15pm Feb 7, 2010 9:15pm
Quoting Scarlett
I wrote this on 4/17/09 on a thread "NO More Hedging..."

The Beginning of Heavy Handed Rules and Regs in Forex
I see that everyone is trying to figure out how this will affect him personally.
I am amazed that no one has commented on the implications of this "Rule".

We are witnessing the beginning of a power grab by the dull witted bureaucrats on behalf of their smug and entitled market manipulators, i.e. the "big boys".

[color=navy]What will it take...
Congratulations!...you were 100% correct...problem is people don't usually fight unless they are personally affected...I don't hedge so back then I posted but w/o really a reason to fight...now is different, as this is not workable...

By the way, I am going to try to find out who were the attorneys on the Zelener case that put the Federales on their knees and post the name of the firm. Will also email them and see if we can get an opinion on the probabilities of putting the Mountain Police back on their knees one more time.
http://www.futuresindustry.org/fi-ma...home.asp?a=961
Or if you can find out post too...
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