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  • #341
  • Dec 25, 2009 9:54pm Dec 25, 2009 9:54pm
If anyone comes across MT5 pivot indicators please post them here.


Also if you come across MT5 timezone workarounds please post them here.


It seems that the time zone is still not adjustable in MT5, and MetaQuotes have not provided any indicators that would need timezone adjustment to make the indicator accurate.
  • #342
  • Dec 25, 2009 9:57pm Dec 25, 2009 9:57pm
Quoting hawkman
No, IT CAN'T. Right now in MT4 if I buy one EURUSD lot at 1.4300, one lot at 1.4350 and one at 1.4400 I have three distinct positions open and I can choose which one to keep and which one to close. In MT5 I would have one lot of 0.3 at an average price of 1.4350. How is this "improvement" going to benefit me?
Wouldn't it give you 3 lot at 1.4350?


I haven't tried, but I think that would make more sense...
  • #343
  • Edited 2:06am Dec 26, 2009 1:02am | Edited 2:06am
The link below takes you to some MT4 scripts that help you convert your MQ4 code to MQ5 code. Nowhere near perfect but it is a start.

HERE IS THE LINK (posts 28 and 29)
  • #344
  • Dec 26, 2009 2:53am Dec 26, 2009 2:53am
Quoting hawkman
No, IT CAN'T. Right now in MT4 if I buy one EURUSD lot at 1.4300, one lot at 1.4350 and one at 1.4400 I have three distinct positions open and I can choose which one to keep and which one to close. In MT5 I would have one lot of 0.3 at an average price of 1.4350. How is this "improvement" going to benefit me?
In MT5 you'll end up with 3 lots at the average price of 1.4350. And you can close any of those three anytime - the same as in MT4. Did you ever try trading in MT5?
  • #345
  • Dec 26, 2009 6:18am Dec 26, 2009 6:18am
Quoting aquaart
Wouldn't it give you 3 lot at 1.4350?


I haven't tried, but I think that would make more sense...
I usually trade only 0.1 lots so yes that would give 0.3 lots. But the point still stands. The new FIFO regulation combined with merging positions is designed to cause traders to lose money.
  • #346
  • Dec 26, 2009 6:19am Dec 26, 2009 6:19am
Quoting enivid
In MT5 you'll end up with 3 lots at the average price of 1.4350. And you can close any of those three anytime - the same as in MT4. Did you ever try trading in MT5?
I did. Did you? Unless they reverted the way they handle position in later builds, position handling is not the same anymore. It couldn't be the same anyway, now that you're forced to use FIFO.
  • #347
  • Dec 26, 2009 6:19am Dec 26, 2009 6:19am
Quoting enivid
In MT5 you'll end up with 3 lots at the average price of 1.4350. And you can close any of those three anytime - the same as in MT4. Did you ever try trading in MT5?
Nature has many different types of average, but what MT5 offers is a bastardized system employed for the profits of brokers and bankers.

Nobody has explained how they will supplant hedge range trading. It is much easier to hedgelock the median price range, say with Andrew's pitchfork then either let the market rebound to the median or enjoy even greater profits on a rebound. Hedging can offer advantages for those who find exits easier than entries, and for them MT5 is crippleware.
  • #348
  • Dec 26, 2009 7:36am Dec 26, 2009 7:36am
Quoting rossiya
Hedging can offer advantages for those who find exits easier than entries
From an MT4 perspective that can be very true....
  • #349
  • Dec 27, 2009 2:26am Dec 27, 2009 2:26am
Quoting hawkman
I did. Did you? Unless they reverted the way they handle position in later builds, position handling is not the same anymore. It couldn't be the same anyway, now that you're forced to use FIFO.
Position handling is not the same, but with the orders available in MT5 you can do the same things as in MT4. Please, re-read the thread, that's quite clearly explained before. It doesn't matter if it's FIFO or not. If you buy a lot at 1.3 and then one at 1.4 it doesn't matter which one you sell later (partially close the position) as the result is the same.
  • #350
  • Dec 27, 2009 2:40am Dec 27, 2009 2:40am
Quoting rossiya
Nature has many different types of average, but what MT5 offers is a bastardized system employed for the profits of brokers and bankers.
Having a grudge towards a platform instead of trying to understand how it works isn't helping anything.

Quoting rossiya
Nobody has explained how they will supplant hedge range trading. It is much easier to hedgelock the median price range, say with Andrew's pitchfork then either let the market rebound to the median or enjoy even greater profits on a rebound. Hedging can offer advantages for those who find exits easier than entries, and for them MT5 is crippleware.
You can enter and exit the trades the same way in MT5, you'll just have less positions open at the same time. The resulting profit/loss will remain same. If you think that with MT4 traders can "enjoy even greater profits" then, please, show us an example, how is that possible in MT4 and isn't possible in MT5.
  • #351
  • Dec 27, 2009 10:05am Dec 27, 2009 10:05am
Quoting enivid
Having a grudge towards a platform instead of trying to understand how it works isn't helping anything.



You can enter and exit the trades the same way in MT5, you'll just have less positions open at the same time. The resulting profit/loss will remain same. If you think that with MT4 traders can "enjoy even greater profits" then, please, show us an example, how is that possible in MT4 and isn't possible in MT5.
Simple.
Let's take the same example.
3 longs on EUR USD
1) 0,1 lot at 1.4400
2) 0.1 lot at 1.4350
3) 0.1 lot at 1.4400

In MT4 you get three distinct 0.1 positions and you can choose to close position 1), 2) or 3). In MT5 you get ONE 0.3 lot as if you had issued one single buy order. So you can kiss your freedom to close any position you want good bye. In MT5 you are forced to close them in FIFO (first in first out). Now if I bought the first lot at 4400 and price starts going against me to 1.4375, with MT4 I can choose to close the second position for a profit of 25 pips, while at the same time reducing my exposure to the market.
In MT5, tough noogies. You want to reduce your margin, you have to close the FIRST position meaning unlike in MT4 you'll be forced to close the losing position first to lower your market exposure, for a loss of 25 pips.
Not only that but you can't hedge, which is adding insult to injury (since the only pairs that have a very tight correlation are EUR USD and USD CHF and it's still not the real deal, but a surrogate).
I usually ride out these losses, because my experience has taught me that in all my trades where I used a stop loss, the only one who was happy was my broker, and had I waited out, those trades would have been profitable eventually sometimes as quickly as a few hours after my stop loss was hit.
And one drawback of having positions lumped together means you can't keep track of which position is profitable and which one is not.

Quote

Having a grudge towards a platform instead of trying to understand how it works isn't helping anything.

I don't think any man with half a brain gets emotional about inanimate objects. I don't give a hoot who makes it if gets the job done. And that's all I'm looking for. It's obvious the platform has been crippled, and all the bells and whistles can't hide the fact that the only ones who are going to benefit from the way positions are handled now are brokers. MT5 is not even better from a technical point of view (look at how jagged curves still are in MT charts and how smooth they are in other platforms - I'd give names but I'm probably not allowed). For me I'll be switching from my broker the moment they switch to MT5, to a broker that allows FIFO and hedging. And if that FIFO "regulation" crosses the pond over in Europe, I'll stop trading forex because forcing FIFO down my throat takes away my main "edge" in trading.

And oh gosh, look at what one major broker advertises:

Full Control over FX Trading Positions
Advanced hedging capabilities and flexibility to choose which trades to close instead of first in, first out (FIFO).
I wonder why...
It makes me wonder what the ulterior motives of those defending MT5 are. You can't possibly tell me with a straight face that nothing has changed in how the platform handles orders, and you can't possibly be honest when you're saying that this won't affect my trading for the worse.
  • #352
  • Dec 28, 2009 1:21am Dec 28, 2009 1:21am
Quoting hawkman
Simple.
In MT5 you get ONE 0.3 lot as if you had issued one single buy order. So you can kiss your freedom to close any position you want good bye. In MT5 you are forced to close them in FIFO (first in first out).
In MT5 you will get 0.3 lot at 1.4350, however, I am led to believe that you will be allowed partial closure of that overall position.

Lets say you close 0.1 lot of the 0.3 lot position. That leaves 0.2 lot at 1.4350, why???? because all 3 0.1 lot positions have been made to be 1 0.3 lot position, and that one position is 0.3 lot at 1.4350.



________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The link below takes you to some MT4 scripts that help you convert your MQ4 code to MQ5 code. They are nowhere near perfect but it is a start.

HERE IS THE LINK (posts 28 and 29)
  • #353
  • Dec 28, 2009 4:18am Dec 28, 2009 4:18am
Quoting hawkman
Simple.
Let's take the same example.
3 longs on EUR USD
1) 0,1 lot at 1.4400
2) 0.1 lot at 1.4350
3) 0.1 lot at 1.4400

In MT4 you get three distinct 0.1 positions and you can choose to close position 1), 2) or 3). In MT5 you get ONE 0.3 lot as if you had issued one single buy order. So you can kiss your freedom to close any position you want good bye. In MT5 you are forced to close them in FIFO (first in first out).
Looks like a mess with the understanding of how MT4 and MT5 work. In your example in MT4:

1. You buy 0.1 @ 1.4400, 0.1 @ 1.4350 and 0.1 @ 1.4400.
2. At any given moment with the CurrentPrice (CP) your total profit is:
(CP - 1.4400) + (CP - 1.4350) + (CP - 1.4400).
3. For example CP = 1.4500. Your total profit is:
(1.4500 - 1.4400) + (1.4500 - 1.4350) + (1.4500 - 1.4400) = 350 pips.

Your same example, but in MT5:
1. You buy 0.1 @ 1.4400, 0.1 @ 1.4350 and 0.1 @ 1.4400. - there is no problem with that, you can easily check yourself that you can have a position by sending these 3 orders in MT5.
2. The resulting position will be 0.3 lots with the average price of 1.43833.
3. At any given moment your total profit is: (CP - 1.43833) * 3.
4. For example CP = 1.4500. Your total profit its:
(1.4500 - 1.43833) * 3 = 350 pips.

And it doesn't matter which one of those 3 positions your close first or second in MT4, as it doesn't matter (and you can control it) in MT5 when you are partially closing your position. After you've opened the position, the total profit is always the same in MT4 and MT5 and fluctuates only with the current price.

If you still don't think that there is no difference in the order of closing the position, please, consider this example:
1. You buy a bar of gold at $500.
2. In a week you buy another bar of gold at $1000.
3. Now you have 2 identical bars.
4. Assume the current price of $1,100. Does it matter which on of the bars you sell now? No, you'll still get the profit from the difference between the average price of your gold and the current market price.

Quoting hawkman
Now if I bought the first lot at 4400 and price starts going against me to 1.4375, with MT4 I can choose to close the second position for a profit of 25 pips, while at the same time reducing my exposure to the market.
In MT5, tough noogies. You want to reduce your margin, you have to close the FIRST position meaning unlike in MT4 you'll be forced to close the losing position first to lower your market exposure, for a loss of 25 pips.
Wrong.

In MT4:

1. You have 1 position at 1.4350 and 1 at 1.4400.
2. At 1.4375 you choose to close 1 at 1.4350 and get 25 pips profit fixed.
3. The total current profit at a current price of 1.43750 is 0. Of course, the price can then go up and you can close 1.4400 at break even or higher and get more profit, that's quite obvious.

In MT5:

1. You have opened 1 position at 1.4350 and 1 at 1.4400. Your resulting position is 2 at 1.4375.
2. At 1.4375 you choose to close 1 lot of the position with 0 profit.
3. The total current profit is 0. And, of course, you can still wait for the price to go up to close at 1.4400 or higher. The result is the same as in MT4.

Quoting hawkman
Not only that but you can't hedge, which is adding insult to injury (since the only pairs that have a very tight correlation are EUR USD and USD CHF and it's still not the real deal, but a surrogate).
I usually ride out these losses, because my experience has taught me that in all my trades where I used a stop loss, the only one who was happy was my broker, and had I waited out, those trades would have been profitable eventually sometimes as quickly as a few hours after my stop loss was hit.
And one drawback of having positions lumped together...
For explanations regarding hedging, please, refer to posts 208, 265 from this thread. Although they are mostly about the spread issues, they also explain why there is no difference in MT4 hedging and sending the orders in the opposite directions in MT5.

Quoting hawkman
I don't think any man with half a brain gets emotional about inanimate objects. I don't give a hoot who makes it if gets the job done. And that's all I'm looking for. It's obvious the platform has been crippled, and all the bells and whistles can't hide the fact that the only ones who are going to benefit from the way positions are handled now are brokers. MT5 is not even better from a technical point of view (look at how jagged curves still are in MT charts and how smooth they are in other platforms - I'd give names but I'm probably not allowed)....
It may sound surprising, but the traders actually benefit from the MT5 platform, as with the elimination of MT4-style hedging the total amount of paid swap is reduced.
  • #354
  • Dec 28, 2009 5:17am Dec 28, 2009 5:17am
mt5 is sh*t mt4 4ever
  • #355
  • Dec 28, 2009 5:54am Dec 28, 2009 5:54am
http://forexmagnates.com/mt4-vs-mt5-...s-perspective/
  • #356
  • Dec 28, 2009 7:17am Dec 28, 2009 7:17am
Quote
It may sound surprising, but the traders actually benefit from the MT5 platform, as with the elimination of MT4-style hedging the total amount of paid swap is reduced.
Oh for pity's sake. That's a blatant lie to try to polish the turd. First of all, if if somebody is such an idiot that they don't know they're paying swap for both positions, which is not always true (and it's just a matter of how dishonest your broker is by the way, because for instance most brokers charge you swap when you're long EURUSD, when they should actually be paying you swap because of the interest rate differential), then they shouldn't be trading forex. Second of all, I've opened a long 0.1 lot EURUSD position on December 22nd 2009. The swap points paid for this position were 0.66 cents for six days. If I were to hold that position for a year (365 days) I would pay 0.11x365=40.15 dollars A YEAR. Yeah, I can see how that would cause a mess for my 3000 USD account . After six days that positions has already gained 113 USD and I've only paid 0.66 cents in swap. So the argument that the noble NFA is protecting the poor innocent traders from suffering "huge" losses by paying swap points has no merit whatsoever. Good thing I've got the NFA looking for my best interest...out of the kindness of their hearts of course .
Third of all, not all positions require you to pay swap. In most cases you actually earn swap (and for some currencies the swap points are significant - maybe you should check out the exotics - many people would kill for that kind of returns per day).
  • #357
  • Dec 28, 2009 6:11pm Dec 28, 2009 6:11pm
Quoting hawkman
Oh for pity's sake. That's a blatant lie to try to polish the turd. First of all, if if somebody is such an idiot that they don't know they're paying swap for both positions, which is not always true (and it's just a matter of how dishonest your broker is by the way, because for instance most brokers charge you swap when you're long EURUSD, when they should actually be paying you swap because of the interest rate differential), then they shouldn't be trading forex. Second of all, I've opened a long 0.1 lot EURUSD position on December 22nd 2009....
You're quite right note that enivid has no superior knowledge or perspective, only dogma. He returns a disparaging comment about pure maths, for crying out loud! He probably took too many extra-curriculars in school and missed class. Obviously if you trade employing a hedgelock in a cyclic, ranging market you can take a profit on EITHER direction, in contrast to taking a LOSS with MT5. No amount of verbal effluent from the brokers and their shills will diminish the fact that you have more options with hedging. Of course skill is required but that goes without saying in FOREX.
  • #358
  • Edited Dec 29, 2009 3:18am Dec 28, 2009 8:16pm | Edited Dec 29, 2009 3:18am
MT5 have NOT addressed some of the biggest issues related to traders when it comes to the platform itself:

1) They disabled multi-position handling, which for some trading styles makes trading much easier. No matter what way we look at it, this is a decrease in functionality as a single position trader could still do single position trading in a multi-position platform, but a multi-position trader cannot easily do multi-position trading in a single position platform.

This MUST be made optional for the non-NFA traders.


2) After saying that they would make MQ5 backwards compatiable with MQ4 (to keep traders I would suspect), they have either lied or misled the forex community and gone back on their word.
Point 2) is heavily related to the loss of functionality in point 1). I suspect that they have deliberately not made a MQ4 to MQ5 translation tools because it would highlight the loss of functionality (trade operation in particular) very easily for all too see.

(However some translation scripts are already being developed and it would be good for all communities to take advantage of them.)

3) One of the common trading issues was MT4's dependancy on server time being the timeframe that you must observe. They have NOT changed this with MT5. This is a fundamental flaw in the platform. To overcome this, they could have supplied timezone dependent indicators with a timezone adjustment feature in them... but they haven't. Many other platforms offer timezone manipulation without issue.




So if your broker phases out MT4 to take on MT5, anyone:

  1. using non-metaquotes indicators are stuffed.
  2. using non-metaquotes scripts are stuffed.
  3. using non-metaquotes EAs are stuffed.
  4. looking for timezone adjustment found on many other platforms should look for another broker.

  • #359
  • Dec 29, 2009 3:43am Dec 29, 2009 3:43am
Quoting hawkman
Oh for pity's sake. That's a blatant lie to try to polish the turd.
Please, state where did I lie exactly. Accusing of lies without a proof isn't very mature.

Quoting hawkman
First of all, if if somebody is such an idiot that they don't know they're paying swap for both positions, which is not always true (and it's just a matter of how dishonest your broker is by the way, because for instance most brokers charge you swap when you're long EURUSD, when they should actually be paying you swap because of the interest rate differential), then they shouldn't be trading forex.
That has nothing to do with what I've said - elimination of hedging reduces the swap paid by the trader to broker. When you have 1 lot Long on EUR/USD and 1 lot Short on EUR/USD the total swap will always be negative (a trader pays to a broker) (of course for brokers that apply swap, I am not talking about Islamic accounts or other accounts that have no overnight interest). In MT5 1 Short would close 1 Long and no swap would be applied in this case.

Quoting hawkman
Second of all, I've opened a long 0.1 lot EURUSD position on December 22nd 2009. The swap points paid for this position were 0.66 cents for six days. If I were to hold that position for a year (365 days) I would pay 0.11x365=40.15 dollars A YEAR. Yeah, I can see how that would cause a mess for my 3000 USD account . After six days that positions has already gained 113 USD and I've only paid 0.66 cents in swap. So the argument that the noble NFA is protecting the poor innocent traders from suffering "huge" losses by paying swap...
I've said nothing about NFA or "huge" losses, I've just stated a fact. You've said that the MT5 is only to benefit the brokers, to which I've replied that traders also may benefit from MT5 - by eliminating the loss from swap that's connected with hedging.

Quoting hawkman
Third of all, not all positions require you to pay swap. In most cases you actually earn swap (and for some currencies the swap points are significant - maybe you should check out the exotics - many people would kill for that kind of returns per day).
Oh, what a surprise! That's a known fact, but I was talking about paying a swap in hedging not just about swap in general. Of course, in MT5 you still have to pay and receive swap on all open position depending on the interest rate difference, the same as in MT4.
  • #360
  • Dec 29, 2009 3:49am Dec 29, 2009 3:49am
Quoting rossiya
Obviously if you trade employing a hedgelock in a cyclic, ranging market you can take a profit on EITHER direction, in contrast to taking a LOSS with MT5. No amount of verbal effluent from the brokers and their shills will diminish the fact that you have more options with hedging. Of course skill is required but that goes without saying in FOREX.
Actually, it has already been proven in this thread that you can trade the same strategy (even if it involved hedging) in MT5 as you do in MT4. The fact that the trade in one direction now closes the position in the opposite direction doesn't change anything except for overall swap paid. You still haven't provided any example trade/strategy that would be impossible to implement in MT5 with the same profit/loss result.
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