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  • #1,001
  • Edited 10:15am Dec 9, 2009 9:57am | Edited 10:15am
i asked u if you are sure that a private limited company anyone can check it is audited account .?
i asked you if the sentance u wrote about the trade taken in that specific date u are sure about it .

if you dont understand , it means u dont want
since u have an indicator with colors why dont u use it as xmas tree and u play with it ?
ps : ah and by the way yes i am posting under heavy mind-altering hallucinogenics, ur bullshit make my head turn , and give me a nausea and i want to vomit . i will stop posting and put u on my ignore list . so i dont have this nausea feeling anymore .

Quoting daytrading
Samer,

You are obviously posting under the influence of some heavy mind-altering hallucinogenics if you are under the impression that anyone would understand or follow your advice.

regards
daytrading
  • #1,002
  • Edited 10:27am Dec 9, 2009 10:24am | Edited 10:27am
Quoting daytrading
Jtrade,

read and understand - then comment.

regards
daytrading
I did of course read before posting... understanding is of course something else.

Perhaps I have an advantage in my perspective, having been a subscriber to Jacko's group (12 month sub only recently expired). I found it worthwhile and enjoyable, although as you may recall from my pm about getting good fills at larger size just under a year ago, longer-term trading is not my primary focus.

Nevertheless, during the first 6 or so months of my membership, I tracked every one of Jacko's trades and they were all spot on as he described. Bear in mind that Jacko calls almost all his trades well in advance, giving a full rationale for each trade - the very occasional trade being executed quickly when the market has moved fast (very much the exceptions, though). Throughout my membership he was courteous, polite and he walked the walk exactly as he talked his talk. It was a worthwhile experience for $500.

It seems with all your digging, only one anonymous member has come out anti-Jacko : even if you have found a few more, it is inevitable - purely because of human nature - that a certain percentage of any service will be unhappy and therefore resentful at having handed over their dosh. And why the anonymity - what are they scared of ? The responses from actual Jacko subscribers have been overwhelmingly in favour, something you ignore with endless self-justification.

This is why I find your dogged determination to expose something that does not in my first hand experience exist not only strange, but also counter-productive, given your stated motives. I do not understand why you of all people have got such a bee in your bonnet... and I have read all your posts to this thread. You remind me of my very wealthy German brother-in-law, who also gets this way (like you, he speaks perfect English, although it is not his mother tongue). As for the recent posts about Jacko's private fund, I see flytim has found it : I think the fund was only setup in the last year so obviously no accounts will be filed for many months yet.

dt - your trading posts and personal advice have helped me in the past, and I highly value your trading commentary. But this thread has become a personal witch hunt : you and Jacko have insulted each other publicly and both made accusations about alter-egos; Jacko has at least had the dignity and good sense to walk away (I know you will say different....).

Well, that's it from me, trading is full of unnecessary distractions and this thread has become one of them.

Good luck, everybody.
  • #1,003
  • Dec 9, 2009 10:33am Dec 9, 2009 10:33am
DT,

The company registration number (CR number) is 1257428 on the GovHK website. I suppose I've avoided naming his funds name on the forum this way!

I had a look in the company documents list and annual accounts aren't there, unless they are in the annual return document. Maybe company law in HK is different regarding private limited company accounts. You were right about accounts being available for UK companies listed at companies house though.

regards

Tim

ps. as with companies house there is a small charge for viewing the company documents and director details so I haven't looked.
  • #1,004
  • Dec 9, 2009 10:37am Dec 9, 2009 10:37am
Tim,

Thank you for your message.

Again, there is no firm registered under the address given to investors.

That in itself would already constitute a violation of corporate law.

We are getting closer to the point here - which is not to compare what SMS messages have been sent out, but to prove whether the whole construction is real or a simple marketing scam.

The harder part is mine. As previously mentioned, it is more difficult to disprove unsubstantiated claims, than it would be for the owner to prove the existence of trade records and company accounts (or any any of other claims made).

In all this, without proof from the business, it will stay subject to speculation and further investigations until indefinite evidence comes to light.

The current view is that without evidence regarding claims along the lines of 'I trade 200 standard lots comfortably for my personal account' (which, for people who might not be familiar with the size, is $2000/pip), they are nothing but promotional phrases, empty in nature.

If the above is true, his SMS text messages are merely a signal service and as such are banned from the commercial part of the forum.

To make this clear for readers once more:

I believe that none of the trades claimed were ever taken in a real account - neither were they taken in the size claimed.

I further believe that several members who have initially posted in this thread are either the same person, or as we have seen in the content of one of the e-mail messages, has been persuaded to post against his own better judgement.

I also believe that the fund some people speak of has never issued or sent out a real independently audited statement, nor can any public company records be obtained. The address unconfirmed.

I am not even going into the claims about the funds profitability and the mismatching numbers that come with it (yet).

Should I be wrong with my assumptions and anyone can come forward to disprove my suspicions with real hard evidence, I am more than willing to listen - but until then, I will carry on to find out what is really behind what looks like marketing of a $700 signal service.

regards
daytrading
Enter Signature
  • #1,005
  • Dec 9, 2009 10:44am Dec 9, 2009 10:44am
Having being quoted earlier I will reply.

Quoting daytrading
Tim,

[COLOR="Blue"Friday, December 4, 2009
DECEMBER 2009
Friday, December 4, 2009

Trade 78 .......... December 4

Sold at 1.4995 (December 4 ....8.50am NY time)

Bought at 1.4835 (December 4 ........3.10pm NY time)

Profit 160 pips


My first priority is to get the trades on for the investors in the Fund.

1) Read The Bolded Sentence.

2) If Unclear Proceed To Step 3

3) Go Back To Step 1.


Once you've managed to get past that exercise - ask yourself - which signal service (700 usd a year cost let's not forget that) doesn't even send signals (160 PIPS!!) to its subscribers' yet posts them and the trades in an area - albeit accessible as read only - that those same subscribers' can access without any problems if they choose to do so?


Hmmmmmm.......


I wonder...maybe just maybe we are not talking about a signal service after all...


Regarding the rest - if you say so and are convinced of it Daytrading...
Nihil inimicus quam sibi ipse Marcus Tullius Cicero
  • #1,006
  • Dec 9, 2009 10:51am Dec 9, 2009 10:51am
Quoting coscorp
Having being quoted earlier I will reply.




1) Read The Bolded Sentence.

2) If Unclear Proceed To Step 3

3) Go Back To Step 1.


Once you've managed to get past that exercise - ask yourself - which signal service (700 usd a year cost let's not forget that) doesn't even send signals (160 PIPS!!)...
Coscorp,

Thank you for the reply.

He made 2.5 pips per day (or 9.6 pips per trade in 2009) - hardly worth mentioning, wouldn't you say?

regards
daytrading
Enter Signature
  • #1,007
  • Dec 9, 2009 11:03am Dec 9, 2009 11:03am
AK,

You must be bright enough, judging by some of your posts, to understand what this is all about.

A thread in the commercial forum is being questioned about the nature of the business and proof for unsubstantiated claims is requested in a very polite and open manner.

Nothing more, nothing less. What do we get in return? Questions like 'how could someone dare doubt the legitimacy of a person who has actually proved....nothing!

Why should my privileges be revoked on your say?

What is wrong with asking the questions I ask?

A 'long standing member' - who gives a toss.

regards
daytrading
Enter Signature
  • #1,008
  • Dec 9, 2009 11:03am Dec 9, 2009 11:03am
Quoting daytrading
To make this clear for readers once more:

I believe that none of the trades claimed were ever taken in a real account - neither were they taken in the size claimed.

I further believe that several members who have initially posted in this thread are either the same person, or as we have seen in the content of one of the e-mail messages, has been persuaded to post against his own better judgement.

I also believe that the fund some people speak of has never issued or sent out a real independently audited statement, nor can any public company...
Trades and size of trades: I don't know so no comment.

Several members being the same person: I would have thought the moderators could check this with IP addresses or some such. I not that IT savvy but I'm sure it could be done. You are in contact with the mods so maybe you could ask them.

Existance of company: As I said earlier the company is listed in HK but accounts are not available from GovHK website, however other documents are available for a small charge. I can't confirm whether the company is at said address but I might be in HK in Jan or Feb so maybe I'll have a look.

Funds profitability: The only real proof that'll satisfy you is audited accounts I guess. I haven't gone through the blog and totted up the P/L so again can't comment.

As it stands at the moment I can understand some of your suspicions and nothing I say will change that. I just stated a few minor verifiable facts for any readers to assess for themselves and that's probably the best that will come out of this. i leave the rest to the mods to decide if he is a signal service and thus ban him, but I would've thought they would have banned him by now if they were going to.

regards and good luck in your quest

Tim

ps. HK is a very expensive place to live, especially if you're a gweilo(westerner) somehow I can't see $700 per subscriber is going to provide enough, given that he does spend significant time on doing the blog, answering emails and looking at the markets.
  • #1,009
  • Edited 6:47pm Dec 9, 2009 11:14am | Edited 6:47pm
Quoting daytrading
AK,

You must be bright enough, judging by some of your posts, to understand what this is all about.

A thread in the commercial forum...
Yeah, and many of us saw this coming along time ago... Looking more and more like a Failed Experiment.

Attached Image


Anyway, I wasn't addressing you and have no plans to reply to you again under any circumstances.

Add: As an FF member however, I will participate in this thread as I see fit unless or until I get banned by the OP...
FUBAR...
  • #1,010
  • Dec 9, 2009 11:24am Dec 9, 2009 11:24am
Quoting flytim
Trades and size of trades: I don't know so no comment.

Several members being the same person: I would have thought the moderators could check this with IP addresses or some such. I not that IT savvy but I'm sure it could be done. You are in contact with the mods so maybe you could ask them.

Existance of company: As I said earlier the company is listed in HK but accounts are not available from GovHK website, however other documents are available for a small charge. I can't confirm whether the company is at said address but I might be in HK...
Thanks Tim,

Yes I am aware of the points you raise -

What I have difficulties understanding is this: I am spending some time here posting and investigating a matter that should actually be cleared up in no time at all by the business itself.

The fact that the issues have been raised in a public forum is the result of the forum having instated a 'commercial' section that warns with 'Buyer beware' messages.

Maybe I am not personally a buyer - but I am sure I speak for many - which is not a violation of any rules.

Since it is a commercial venture, I would simply like to see some real evidence about its legitimacy - but instead I am getting insulted on a personal level from all around - even people who stumbled into the thread without any real interest; my nationality has been brought into it, and the majority of posts are either off-topic or aiming very hard to disrupt the process of finding some simple answers.

regards
daytrading
Enter Signature
  • #1,011
  • Dec 9, 2009 11:32am Dec 9, 2009 11:32am
Quoting ak4x
Yeah, and many of us saw this coming along time ago... Looking more and more like a Failed Experiment.

Attachment

Anyway, I wasn't addressing you and have no plans to reply again under any circumstances.
AK,

Just because this might be an uncomfortable issue for some does not mean that by posting a train-wreck and a grave stone you will derail the process.

Surely, you won't be missed in the discussion.

regards
daytrading
Enter Signature
  • #1,012
  • Dec 9, 2009 12:17pm Dec 9, 2009 12:17pm
I think it's perfectly justifiable to question the legitimacy and integrity of sellers especially on public trading forums like this one where there is a high concentration of the novice and inexperienced, in fact I think it's imperative, it's hardly a witch hunt.

If the business in question stands up under public scrutiny then wouldn't that be beneficial to them? Let's face it, these are only questions which anyone contemplating paying for a service should ask anyway, it's just normal due diligence.

This is why I really can't understand the refusal of the business to co-operate, one can only speculate as to the reason why everything needs to be shrouded in mystery.
  • #1,013
  • Dec 9, 2009 1:01pm Dec 9, 2009 1:01pm
Hi Pip,

What I find quite interesting is that from the beginning, when the thread was based on the OP's and other similar minded members' euphoria about the service's subjectively perceived quality, until now none of the questions relating to the service have been answered.

Instead onlookers and lurkers like ak4x and similar come in here to try and play sheriff without actually making any sensible contributions whatsoever.

It seems to me that - if I am not completely out of touch with reality - such comments do the actual damage to the credibility of the forum (sending a few class-clown pictures that only make the soft-brained burst out with laughter for a minute).

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against humour and a good laugh where it is appropriate, but this is a rather serious matter in my opinion. If we get to a stage where anyone who has serious doubts about business practices on an internet forum gets accused of 'injecting massive innuendo', reincarnating crap' and dragging down the forum, then we have arrived in a very dark place.

I have made no innuendo's whatsoever - I have very openly stated my suspicions about the legitimacy of the said business on the basis of the unwillingness of the owner to simply deliver some real evidence that would confirm the claims very openly made by the business.

If that can't be done, the only conclusion that can be drawn, is that such evidence does not exist. If it does not exist, I am back to my main point, which is the business is nothing but a signal service with SMS text messages and has no place in the commercial forum.

To all the people who come in here and say that there is no obligation for the person to show any proof to substantiate the claims, I would say this:

Why have the claims been made, if not to entice others to believe, listen or awaken interest in potential customers? If the interest is generated on the basis of claims (about the amount of pips generated, trades taken and the size of the trades), why (if they exist) are verified account statements not produced? Surely, jaws would drop all over the place and I would have the greatest pleasure in admitting that I was wrong while all the supporters can have a field day.

It would generate an unprecedented amount of new business as well as the standing of the factory would rise to new highs?

To make another thing clear as well: I have no personal issues in here with any single member - I simply say things as they appear to me and in the case of the subject of this discussion, there is nobody who could in any way convince me that my endeavour has the wrong motivation. The only right cause of action to to end this, is either for the business to deliver proof or to be removed from the commercial section.

regards
daytrading
Enter Signature
  • #1,014
  • Dec 9, 2009 1:35pm Dec 9, 2009 1:35pm
DT,

It seems to me that your beef is ultimately with the moderators of the forum. You have stated your case, have been in contact with the moderators and they will or will not, at some point, act on your complaints.

The internet is a big bad ugly place, much like the real world, and the small amount of shelter provided in forums like this is in the hands of the moderators. If you are unhappy with the job that they are doing you can let them know, which you have done I presume, and/or find somewhere else more to your liking. Maybe even start your own forum.


I think that realistically you are not going to get the proof you want, you have stated your case and as such it is now in the hands of the mods. Out of interest what sort of communication have you had with them?

Regards

Tim
  • #1,015
  • Dec 9, 2009 2:03pm Dec 9, 2009 2:03pm
Tim,

If you look at the title of the thread (which was previously located in the 'trading discussion' section), my point was (and is) based on the promotion of the service that has taken place.

My view is that especially for inexperienced newcomers this thread should serve as information rather than advertising for any of the businesses situated in the commercial section. I guess that is why this thread has been moved to this place a while ago.

During the course of the discussion, I merely asked the people who repeatedly claimed to have made sizeable profits on the back of the service, to send over some evidence, which would in turn give confidence to new members who were contemplating to subscribe for an annual payment.

You might have gone through some of the earlier posts to find that none came forward with any substance - this carried on for some time until I began to post again with the result that WJ took it upon himself to try and discredit my attempts to find some proof. He was the one calling for the moderators in the first place and my contact with them was based on a mere coincidence.

The coincidence was that another person had started a thread questioning similar claims that had been made - the said thread had been deleted almost instantly and my question to the moderators was related initially to that.

From there, I raised the point in the same way I have done here, and the communication is still ongoing.

My beef is not with the moderators for the simple reason that (as explained by FF in here: http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=205517), the moderators have no affiliation with any of the businesses that might be found in the commercial section. Nevertheless, they have established rules what type of businesses are banned from posting or gaining a position in that part of the forum.

I simply have highlighted the very strong possibility that the said thread violates one of the rules. It is yet unclear whether in situation such as this, proof should have to be delivered by the business in question - if so requested - or whether people like me will have to carry out the work.

My personal ethical and moral beliefs are that if I am a business and I am questioned about claims I have made, that it surely is me, who has to come up with the evidence to back my claims.

regards
daytrading
Enter Signature
  • #1,016
  • Dec 9, 2009 2:58pm Dec 9, 2009 2:58pm
DT,

I take it the rule you feel has been violated is the no signal services rule.

If it is, then your demands for proof of trading success isn't really necessary since it has no bearing on whether Jacko is signal service or not.

Also Jacko makes a point of saying that he isn't a signal service but then the email from your unhappy member complains of signal being missed. If it isn't a signal service then how can a signal have been missed.

I must admit that Jacko probably treads a fine line on the signal service rule but the rule is the mods rule and it's for them to decide. As such I still think the issue(at least concerning the signal service bit) is up to the mods.

If its another rule you feel is being violated then let me know which.



Tim
  • #1,017
  • Dec 9, 2009 3:35pm Dec 9, 2009 3:35pm
Quoting daytrading
If you look at the title of the thread (which was previously located in the 'trading discussion' section), my point was (and is) based on the promotion of the service that has taken place.

My view is that especially for inexperienced newcomers this thread should serve as information rather than advertising for any of the businesses situated in the commercial section. I guess that is why this thread has been moved to this place a while ago.
I've always found it curious that this thread wasn't binned a long time ago, as there are posts here that repeatedly break all three of the forum rules. Other threads have been binned (including one of my own), and posters dealt an infraction, for much, much less than this. I posted specifically about this here and here.

Twee e-mailed me recently, asking what action I would like to see taken. My view is neutral, but I do feel that if the forum rules are allowed to be broken under special circumstances (e.g. repeated promotion of certain FF-endorsed products in the Trading Discussion area is perfectly OK), then these circumstances (and a list of all such products) should be clearly spelled out.
  • #1,018
  • Dec 9, 2009 4:16pm Dec 9, 2009 4:16pm
Quoting flytim
DT,

I take it the rule you feel has been violated is the no signal services rule.

If it is, then your demands for proof of trading success isn't really necessary since it has no bearing on whether Jacko is signal service or not.

Also Jacko makes a point of saying that he isn't a signal service but then the email from your unhappy member complains of signal being missed. If it isn't a signal service then how can a signal have been missed.

I must admit that Jacko probably treads a fine line on the signal service rule but the rule is the...
Tim,

That is in my view precisely why we are still here. I did not want to be in any way unfair toward WJ. If he was taking the trades as per his 'signals' (and it can be verified beyond doubt), then I would go as far as to drop the issue in an instant for one simple reason: Trust

If all claims are proven to be true, I'd plea for him to stay where he is, because it would simply be undeniable value for any member.
I never had, nor do I have at present any intention to deprive any existing or future member of real quality through my actions.

What I am not doing though is leaving here with unfinished business.

I would (in the same way) fight for anyone who for example might be punished unjustly by the rules.

regards
daytrading
Enter Signature
  • #1,019
  • Dec 9, 2009 4:30pm Dec 9, 2009 4:30pm
Quoting hanover
I've always found it curious that this thread wasn't binned a long time ago, as there are posts here that repeatedly break all three of the forum rules. Other threads have been binned (including one of my own), and posters dealt an infraction, for much, much less than this. I posted specifically about this here and here.

Twee e-mailed me recently, asking what action I would like to see...

Hanover,

Maybe it is time for a change or overhaul of the rules.

I think the topic itself is important enough (and not only here in FF, but anywhere in times of mistrust, scams and fraud), not to be binned before a real resolution takes place.

If the conversation would now be cut off (through binning the thread for example), it would rather look like as if there was no need to address a vital point such as this.

The fact that some people have resorted to rather hefty and below the belt type of conducting themselves, does reflect badly on them more than anything. I had to apologize at one point as well for straying into such behaviour - which was admittedly bad. The only thing I can say to this is that it shows (to some degree) an amount of passion in the discussion.

Finally, there must be a way to come to a resolve - either in favour of my argument, or against. If against, I would like to know of course whether it will be common practise to facilitate businesses on FF without having proper vetting requirements - and I am not talking about votes from other members, wherever they might come from.

regards
daytrading
Enter Signature
  • #1,020
  • Dec 9, 2009 5:11pm Dec 9, 2009 5:11pm
I absolutely agree Dave.


What you want, daytrader?

Do you keep the discussion up to be right?

If you want to review the service which Jacko (or any other) offers, you need information from him and his followers, playing secret service will bring you to nowhere and it would be a worthless one side only review.

I’m not a Jacko turtle but I was reading his thread long time ago and took some parts of his method for my own trading which has a complete different TF.

I had contact in the past with some turtles which also trade THV and they only had good things to say, what I understand is that Jacko is not a signal service at all, he send his takes (calls) to his members in real-time and explains WHY he took those trades. That you can’t call signal service !!!

I also think that he has the right to be wrong sometimes, we all experience this.

I would be very happy if this thread gets binned, let’s treat all with a little more respect.



Quoting hanover
I've always found it curious that this thread wasn't binned a long time ago, .....
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