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  • #701
  • Nov 19, 2009 7:31am Nov 19, 2009 7:31am
I could not believe when I glanced over the trading discussion that this thread has come up again.

Not only that it keeps soliciting a paid service (and no moderator has yet discovered that), but more over it has lowered the overall quality of the forum.

Since I have been in the markets for long enough to distinguish reality from bullsh*t, I would like to make the following suggestion:

Can the following members* please post some of their real statements since joining a paid 'mentoring' service (albeit a paradox), proving that (as stated here) they really have made money from it (we can see from several posts where claims of 100+ pips of profits on specific days were made).

All who have proclaimed that since joining the 'service' they have become profitable, have so far done nothing to vindicate the 'service' against accusations (by myself and others that this is nothing short of promoting a 'business') except having copied and pasted a few messages (where other unsubstantiated claims about profits were made), which a two year old could have fabricated.

In the real world, people are not even allowed by law to browse certain investment vehicles for their own protection against losing money unless they are certified investors. Here it seems possible that any rip-off in disguise can make it into a free forum discussion enticing new members (or are they phony members made up to promote the 'service' verbally - I am not sure where so many new members with no credentials whatsoever come from at any time) to sign up for it.

Further to that, I would like to say that in the fund/trader and managed account world, proof of performance is part of the business. In fact, when asked most traders are proud of positive performance and have no reason to hide it. Since a lot of boasting has been going on in the thread how well people have done, I challenge you to show it - and by doing it, to give this thread the credibility it deserves - or otherwise, work on your skills in the quiet of your own home and stop blowing other peoples trumpets and wasting readers time.

*
The main promoters of the 'service' (please don't slaughter me if I have overlooked or falsely included someone) are:

fxtrader29
kenkomo
rendezvous65
daringdave
coscorp
forexmick
maq
jamiewhite
mongreldog66
orkinv

So, guys and gals - show us how well you have done. It would for once make a real difference. If you can't, then this thread would have to be classed as useless spam since the actual topic (whether a mentor is a good investment - again a paradox) has turned into the promotion of one specific paid 'service', which should be treated as such by the moderators and ultimately dropped in the bin.

Hoping for a swift resolution (not your typical paste jobs please).

regards
daytrading
Enter Signature
  • #702
  • Nov 19, 2009 8:35am Nov 19, 2009 8:35am
Quoting daytrading
I could not believe when I glanced over the trading discussion that this thread has come up again.

Not only that it keeps soliciting a paid service (and no moderator has yet discovered that), but more over it has lowered the overall quality of the forum.

Since I have been in the markets for long enough to distinguish reality from bullsh*t, I would like to make the following suggestion:

Can the following members* please post some of their real statements since joining a paid 'mentoring' service (albeit a paradox), proving that (as stated here)...
Hi daytrading

I am curious as to why you believe that some members of my group are not as profitable as they say they are??

Is your trading performance so unsatisfactory that you cannot believe that there are traders who are profitable?

Or is it the fact that they have not gone through the ridiculous assertion that "You are not a true trader until you have blown two or three accounts".
(Which is such a stupid statement that I can't believe that some traders put their name to it)

I can assure you that I have correspondence from most of the traders listed above regarding their specific trades and I can also assure you that they are very profitable. (Most of them trade more aggressively than me but they also ask my opinion and advice about their trading strategy and their potential trades).

It is also not unusual that we make 100+pip profits on a trade. (I can only assume from your statements above that you can't do that).

It is also true that they make 100+pip profits on their more aggressive trades. It is not unusual and they have even shown you when they made the trades.

In regards to them discussing mentoring (and the impact it has had on their trading), I would have thought that a thread about Forex Mentors was the most appropriate place for them to do so. They are being mentored.

In regards to your demands that they post their statements here, I would say that if you post YOUR statements plus your full name and address and tax account numbers for verification here on the forum (because it is YOU who is making the demands, so it is only fair that they know who YOU are) , then I would be prepared to verify their statements.

.
  • #703
  • Nov 19, 2009 9:16am Nov 19, 2009 9:16am
PS Just an additional note to the above:

You have listed ten traders who have stated that they are profitable.

I am actually surprised that there are not more of the group posting here because there are even more profitable traders than the ones listed.

Maybe it is because they just don't want have trolls like
pipmutt (who had more than 155 posts in this thread saying that everyone was wrong)
gbppip (banned for multiple names)
slackjaw (also banned for multiple names)
and yourself daytrading who stridently attack them and demand "proof" of their trades.

Also, from what I have read, some of the trades have been posted in advance here by the traders that you have named. Those trades would be their trades, not mine.

But having said all that, it appears to me that you, pipmutt, gbppip, and slackjaw (all the same person maybe?????) , have an issue with traders mentoring other traders. I suggest that you get over it.

.
  • #704
  • Nov 19, 2009 9:58am Nov 19, 2009 9:58am
It is of course very noble of you to try and defend you (or your follower's) positions in this thread.

To answer your first question: 22 years of experience in the industry and listening to many people and their 'claims'. I am not always right and I would never put people on the spot unless there is a deeper issue at stake, which in this case is the active promotion of a paid service.

To your second question: I have no qualms about my own trading - which incidentally is not up for debate here for the simple reason that I am not making any claims (substantiated or not) about my own performance.

The term 'improvement' stipulates that a process (in this case from a specific trading status and quality - usually from negative to positive) is happening, according to some of the posters. Whether that includes a (or several) blown account(s), or whether that relates to the change from bad to better or good performance is not really relevant. It has in fact nothing to do with what you call a 'ridiculous assertion' but rather with the real life experience of many aspiring traders.

As I said in my previous post, 'correspondence' can mean anything from simple paste jobs to face value e-mail content or verbal statements and has more often than not no bearing on the truth contained therein.

Again, what my trades look like has nothing to do with this discussion: once I offer my services in any way to the public community (paid or unpaid) I will naturally volunteer independently audited accounts as well as tax statements - simply to underpin my spoken and written word.

They have not shown me any trades (in contrast to what you said) but have made a 'claim' only - which means nothing at all.

The original title of this thread has long been forgotten - the content has been reduced to attempts of promoting/soliciting a service that cost money and its credibility based on a number of (yet) to be substantiated claims.

I won't dignify your last request for my statements with an answer - you are aware that it is a simple measure by yourselves to distract from the actual topic I am raising with what is not a 'demand' as you wrongly put it, but a mere 'suggestion' if you care to read my post carefully.

Finally, at no point in time have I questioned or raised doubts over the quality (or the lack of quality) of what you offer to the public - specifically through this forum. I would expect that if (god forbid) I wish to become a paying member of your group, you would have the courtesy to volunteer audited trading records upon request.

This discussion is not about your personal performance though, it is about the fact that the thread has become a tool to solicit your 'business' - easily identified by the way it is kept alive with meaningless posts that have actually nothing to do with the original question.

Posts like:

'...Hey fxtrader29
Keep coming here. You were doing some good trading.'

and similar have nothing in mind but to return the thread to the front page with meaningless nonsense.

Where was that 'good trading'? How has it been discussed? What is the point of those and other similar posts?

Btw, I don't need to get over anything - and I don't have to resort to childish ways of multiple usernames to raise a perfectly legitimate point here. The fact that you insinuate that, does not speak for you. Neither does the allegation that I have problem with mentoring - since mentoring is not what you do. I think that has been established a few hundred posts ago when this thread was still on topic.

I stand by what I say: this thread has the potential to mislead and has enticed newcomers to join what is merely an 'advice for money' business. My suggestion to see the spectacular improvements from the members of your group (who have claimed so) would in fact help your cause and shut me up in a nanosecond (plus, I would publicly on this thread apologize for any offence I may have caused). So, your flapping about my post shows that you haven't much confidence in your followers....and they seem to not have much in you - otherwise, they would try and prove me wrong with hard evidence.

regards
daytrading
Enter Signature
  • #705
  • Nov 19, 2009 10:08am Nov 19, 2009 10:08am
Hi daytrader

I am sorry but I am not wasting my time responding in depth to your post.

I honestly have better things to do.

.
  • #706
  • Nov 19, 2009 10:10am Nov 19, 2009 10:10am
I'm not for "paid" mentoring but I'm not against it. I just think it should be called something else other than mentoring if there is monetary value attached to the service.

If those paid users are getting the results they are look for, then it shouldn't matter to any of us. In the end, trading is about being profitable and doing it any way possible.
  • #707
  • Nov 19, 2009 10:11am Nov 19, 2009 10:11am
Quoting jacko
Hi daytrader

I am sorry but I am not wasting my time responding in depth to your post.

I honestly have better things to do.

.
I would lie if I say that I expected different.

regards
daytrading
Enter Signature
  • #708
  • Nov 19, 2009 10:52am Nov 19, 2009 10:52am
Quoting Jhig
I'm not for "paid" mentoring but I'm not against it. I just think it should be called something else other than mentoring if there is monetary value attached to the service.

If those paid users are getting the results they are look for, then it shouldn't matter to any of us. In the end, trading is about being profitable and doing it any way possible.
Jhig,

It is not about that any more. My whole point is that in this thread a number of 'followers' or 'subscribers' to a 'paid advice service' have mounted and solicit this service without any substance behind the claims that have been made. Some of them have appeared in other threads as well (the 'how long to be profitable' thread), only to be asked to verify their claims there - which are factually the same claims relating to the same service - just packaged in a different way.

People can pay for whatever they like in my opinion - whether the value they are receiving is real or not - but to keep trying to peddle something completely unsubstantiated in a place where gullibility and trust is something that comes from desperation in many cases, I think that is out of order.

I agree with you on the premise that it should not be classed as a mentoring service - because it is not by definition - but that is really irrelevant. A commercial forum has been put into place for this type of business. If it really belongs anywhere, that is where it should stay.

The FF makes a big point in trying to keep the main forum free from these practises - which I think is a good protection for inexperienced members. I am not sure where it leaves this situation but I can only appeal to the moderators to have a closer look at it.

I certainly have no personal agenda - I don't benefit either way.

regards
daytrading
Enter Signature
  • #709
  • Nov 19, 2009 12:26pm Nov 19, 2009 12:26pm
Quoting daytrading
Jhig,

It is not about that any more. My whole point is that in this thread a number of 'followers' or 'subscribers' to a 'paid advice service' have mounted and solicit this service without any substance behind the claims that have been made. Some of them have appeared in other threads as well (the 'how long to be profitable' thread), only to be asked to verify their claims there - which are factually the same claims relating to the same service - just packaged in a different way.
Daytrading,

if the "solicitation" on my part is ultimately a discussion with another trader regarding ones' viewpoints on certain approaches to trading, and in particular of an individual I've grown to respect both as a trader and as a person, then I am guilty as charged.

I also found the discussion that finally emerged quite constructive and I think it's safe to say I wasn't alone - albeit ultimately we agreed to disagree on quite a few points - further proof is the fact that I was then vouched by that same trader...

Yes, I stand by Jacko - the trader, and moreso the man. The same goes for James 16 and if you search my posts I also highly recommend Strat and BRV. I do so simply because in MY experience they have been valuable in my growth as a trader.

Will everyone benefit from reading following and ultimately subscribing to any services these individuals may choose to offer? Probably not - as we are all different and what may work for one may well not work for another if only on the psychological level. Is there true value in them and what they try to convey? Yes - FOR ME there has been and ultimately there always will be. The same would be valid for you - were I to find your insight,ideas or anything else you may care to share (in any form) I would be out there "soliciting" if I felt it was warranted.

Have I had successful trades following Jacko's methodology? Yes. Do I follow his trades verbatim? No - I do not - however I do sit up and take notice to what he says - if my analysis lines up, then so much the better - if it doesn't, I either wait and see or place my trades accordingly - thus far, he has been right more often wrong - but again you have to take my word for it so we're back to square 1 it seems LOL.


Quoting daytrading
People can pay for whatever they like in my opinion - whether the value they are receiving is real or not - but to keep trying to peddle something completely unsubstantiated in a place where gullibility and trust is something that comes from desperation in many cases, I think that is out of order.
I agree wholeheartedly but - regarding Jacko and the peddling etc - I'd like to courteously draw your attention to the fact that Merlin himself (if I am not mistaken) made him and J16 Preferred Partners quite a while ago. Merlin was not someone who would do that lightly - so the next question would have to be why would he do so - if Jacko where to be "unsubstantiated" in Merlins' view. Merlin - not myself or anyone else.

Quoting daytrading
I agree with you on the premise that it should not be classed as a mentoring service - because it is not by definition - but that is really irrelevant. A commercial forum has been put into place for this type of business. If it really belongs anywhere, that is where it should stay.
to the definition of Mentoring - I recently watched the Karate Kid - and I would swear that Myagi would be a good definition of Mentor - teaching the young kid karate and so on....yet...wait....in return he made the kid work his butt off days on end - doing what? Redoing his home, fixing his cars etc etc etc - all activities which would have an economic value attached to them had Mentor Myagi called someone else to have it done.....

thus would calling it teaching, for example, alleviate any qualms about someone wanting to be paid to share what they know and ultimately their experience?

Quoting daytrading
The FF makes a big point in trying to keep the main forum free from these practises - which I think is a good protection for inexperienced members. I am not sure where it leaves this situation but I can only appeal to the moderators to have a closer look at it.

I certainly have no personal agenda - I don't benefit either way.

regards
daytrading
Again I would invite you to meditate on what Merlin did and why - it may also answer any questions pertaining to the reasons that apparently have led the moderators to believe, since 2007, that there isn't ANY issue to address in Jackos' case.

Cheers.
Nihil inimicus quam sibi ipse Marcus Tullius Cicero
  • #710
  • Nov 19, 2009 12:47pm Nov 19, 2009 12:47pm
Quote
to the definition of Mentoring - I recently watched the Karate Kid - and I would swear that Myagi would be a good definition of Mentor - teaching the young kid karate and so on....yet...wait....in return he made the kid work his butt off days on end - doing what? Redoing his home, fixing his cars etc etc etc - all activities which would have an economic value attached to them had Mentor Myagi called someone else to have it done.....

Some posters may have a personal understanding of the word 'mentor' where they think it is a requirement that no compensation be given for tutoring, but there is no support for that position in the dictionary. Its standard usage is to refer to a teacher, especially in an occupational setting. I find the claim that if a teacher accepts payment in exchange for their time, they are then not a mentor, to be down right weird.
  • #711
  • Edited 1:40pm Nov 19, 2009 1:17pm | Edited 1:40pm
Coscorp,

Thank you for your comments.

I am differentiating between what in the early stages of the thread seemed to be a healthy discussion based on a legitimate question, and what has in the later stages of the thread turned into a contest between followers about who can blow more powdered sugar up the man's rear end.

You did misquote what I said. The claims I am referring to came from the posters in this thread - whom I asked to verify those claims. Whether the claims made on a blog are real or not is up to subscribers to verify (maybe I should have called it 'secondary peddling' instead).

If Merlin and others have decided what you said they have, why are paid services now being shifted to a separate area of the forum? It seems to me that somewhere along the line similar concerns have been raised and the moderators have acted upon them.

There is also a great difference when praising a fellow member of the forum based mutual beneficial advice (or even altruistic advice) or when its based on money being handed over for such advice. In cases where money is involved, prudence and care is imperative.

Another point which seems to be neglected here is the question why has the discussion been narrowed down to one poxy little service? The question was clearly whether its a good investment to 'pay' for a service (whatever you call that service) - the only thing that came from it was: ooh yeah the guy is great...ooh yeah I am gonna sign up too....ooh yeah can someone tell me how to sign up....ooh yeah the group has made 100's of pips.....ooh yeah, everyone who criticises it, is a troll - now what has all that bullsh*t to do with the question of whether paying someone for telling them how to trade is a good investment?

Does all that pass you by, people?

Zeke, please don't interrupt with unqualified comments - if you would have read through the 710 posts, you would keep quiet for now.

regards
daytrading
Enter Signature
  • #712
  • Nov 19, 2009 1:45pm Nov 19, 2009 1:45pm
Quote
if you would have read through the 710 posts, you would keep quiet for now.

I did read all the posts. Always thought it was a weird distinction. And as the thread progressed, it seemed to be used as a rhetorical maneuver to dismiss; kind of like labeling my comments "unqualified". As if there's a standard they failed to meet. Please.
  • #713
  • Nov 19, 2009 1:47pm Nov 19, 2009 1:47pm
come on Zeke!

put something constructive into the conversation.

Btw, manoeuvre is spelled like this: m a n o e u v r e
Enter Signature
  • #714
  • Nov 19, 2009 2:31pm Nov 19, 2009 2:31pm
Quoting daytrading
Coscorp,

Thank you for your comments.

I am differentiating between what in the early stages of the thread seemed to be a healthy discussion based on a legitimate question, and what has in the later stages of the thread turned into a contest between followers about who can blow more powdered sugar up the man's rear end.
Daytrading - my pleasure

Agreed....and I also find it unfortunate as it can unwittingly have the opposite effect albeit intentions were good, but then again I can't really condemn someone for being enthuthiastic about someone or something ....

Quoting daytrading
You did misquote what I said. The claims I am referring to came from the posters in this thread - whom I asked to verify those claims. Whether the claims made on a blog are real or not is up to subscribers to verify (maybe I should have called it 'secondary peddling' instead).
Again - why the need to prove anything here other than the value (or percieved) such posters have gained from joining his private blog? Ultimately it's Jacko's credibility being put up for scrutiny and as you correctly state it will be up to the subscribers to verify when they join if they choose to do so. I'm quite sure that if they don't feel comfortable with what they find they will be free to ask to be refunded no questions asked.

Quoting daytrading
Merlin and others have decided what you said they have, why are paid services now being shifted to a separate area of the forum? It seems to me that somewhere along the line similar concerns have been raised and the moderators have acted upon them.
to my knowledge Merlin isn't actively involved in running FF anymore - however the shift to the commercial forum doesn't implicate that Jacko (or J16 for that matter) was the problem - whereas it could implicate there was a larger issue pertaining to other services products that raised concerns as to their veridicity or bonafide. However, again to my knowledge, the actual creation of the Commercial Forum was sparked by an event pertaining to the J16 group - I may be wrong however.


Quoting daytrading
there is also a great difference when praising a fellow member of the forum based mutual beneficial advice (or even altruistic advice) or when its based on money being handed over for such advice. In cases where money is involved, prudence and care is imperative.
true - and I wholeheartedly agree - but in Jacko's case (as in J16) ALL the information needed to trade their methodology is in the public thread - and I mean everything - it is purely up to a personal choice to join a private group where there is more in depth discussion on market sentiment, possible trades and the reasoning behind them (in Jacko's case HIS trades - that reflect also upon the Fund he manages) and their outcome - be it good or bad. A perfect example would be DanUK's trading journal - he has applied Jacko's methodology very successfully yet he has never been part of his private group. One last point - Jacko does NOT do it for the money - believe me - I know.

Quoting daytrading
Another point which seems to be neglected here is the question why has the discussion been narrowed down to one poxy little service?...
Frankly I don't know - but I would venture...none. Personally I did intervene, even vigorously at times, when I felt there was an unwarranted attack being aimed at Jacko for the same reasons I explained earlier - however there was never the intention of diverting the main topic of the thread - if I did contribute in any way I apologize. Forums can be such a great place yet it is so easy for potentially valuable discussions to be sidetracked in a heartbeat.

Back to the point, for me (as I have already stated) - it is - without a doubt but only if it is ultimately directed at teaching someone how to trade on their own successfully (either following personal experience or methodology) NOT to trade for them...

Quoting daytrading
all that pass you by, people?

Zeke, please don't interrupt with unqualified comments - if you would have read through the 710 posts, you would keep quiet for now.

regards
daytrading
Cheers
Nihil inimicus quam sibi ipse Marcus Tullius Cicero
  • #715
  • Nov 19, 2009 2:58pm Nov 19, 2009 2:58pm
Coscorp,

I admire your diplomacy - it certainly brings matters into perspective.

Again though, it is not (or was not) my intention to mount an attack against anybody. What I find misplaced is the fact that people - especially the crowd I referred to as the '20 post bunch' - come up with statements that are inferring to the quality of a paid service without having any proof to show for it.

I know from long experience that that is an essential part to deliver if you haven't got the reputation (and by that I mean hard results) to back it up.
In this case here, the conversation would take a completely different turn if one of those 'new' members would come up (and this is not unseen in other threads) with real results in fact showing that they are not just making it up - and by that I don't mean that the business itself turns up in order to talk his own book. That is no proof either. Nobody asked for that, not me, nor anyone else.

The phrase 'I believe in this or that' means nothing - especially the OP made some heavy claims of being profitable on the back of the service - make me believe by showing everyone here....where is the problem with that? I am not asking people to drop their pants. It cannot be that difficult....its the service's reputation on the line here as well. If I was the business, I would be very concerned if none of my subscribers would want to step up to the plate and help me out here.

Coscorp, you seem an intelligent educated member - you must see what I am getting at here: I am not trying to discredit the person behind the service - I am simply trying to establish whether its worth it - in the spirit of the original question....and not by blabla but by getting hard evidence.

regards
daytrading
Enter Signature
  • #716
  • Edited 4:21pm Nov 19, 2009 3:52pm | Edited 4:21pm
What's kind of funny is that if Daytrading and Jacko sat down at bar for a brew they would probably get along really well and have tons of trading war stories to share. It is almost impossible not to learn something from people that have 20+ years in the industry.

I mean that respectfully.
Don't wish it were easier, wish you were better. ~ Jim Rohn
  • #717
  • Nov 19, 2009 4:25pm Nov 19, 2009 4:25pm
Quoting daytrading
The FF makes a big point in trying to keep the main forum free from these practises - which I think is a good protection for inexperienced members. I am not sure where it leaves this situation but I can only appeal to the moderators to have a closer look at it.
The moderators understand that Jacko is an upstanding member and contributor to the FF community who is legitimate.

There are many reasons for the creation of the commercial forum. One of them is that some members at FF had a "Pass" (like Jacko) and others didn't, creating a 'double standard' and an area of conflict.
Don't wish it were easier, wish you were better. ~ Jim Rohn
  • #718
  • Nov 19, 2009 5:45pm Nov 19, 2009 5:45pm
Quoting LasVahGoose
The moderators understand that Jacko is an upstanding member and contributor to the FF community who is legitimate.

There are many reasons for the creation of the commercial forum. One of them is that some members at FF had a "Pass" (like Jacko) and others didn't, creating a 'double standard' and an area of conflict.
No doubt, Lasvahgoose -

we might indeed get on like a house on fire. As I mentioned before somewhere along this thread: I don't have an issue with the man himself - my issue is with the way the thread is conducted (mainly by those members mentioned in my post, who have done nothing but willingly solicit a paid service without having shown any evidence of what has been claimed).

If people would in this current climate of ponzi schemes and fraud in all levels of financial interaction read a little more about rules by which the industry is bound, my concerns would certainly be clearer. Just because there is a certain freedom on a forum does not mean we should forget where the limits are of what is ethical.

The way this service has been praised and promoted here (and not only by the business itself) is in my view outside those principles and could (and maybe has) entice(d) novices to jump onto something they might not fully understand - and all without any hard evidence.

regards
daytrading
Enter Signature
  • #719
  • Nov 19, 2009 6:35pm Nov 19, 2009 6:35pm
Regardless if one agrees or disagrees with how the thread is conducted, it appears to be here to stay. I think lots of members are surprised the thread is still here (each probably for their own reasons, no doubt).

I guess we are looking at a future FF mysterious & classic thread. The thread has it all! Love, hate, twist and turns, and broken all the rules.

Quoting daytrading
No doubt, Lasvahgoose -

we might indeed get on like a house on fire....
Don't wish it were easier, wish you were better. ~ Jim Rohn
  • #720
  • Nov 19, 2009 7:01pm Nov 19, 2009 7:01pm
Quoting LasVahGoose
Regardless if one agrees or disagrees with how the thread is conducted, it appears to be here to stay. I think lots of members are surprised the thread is still here (each probably for their own reasons, no doubt).

I guess we are looking at a future FF mysterious & classic thread. The thread has it all! Love, hate, twist and turns, and broken all the rules.
Yes, you are probably right.
Unfortunatly, like a soap opera, there appears to be very little of anything worthwhile in this thread.
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