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  • #301
  • Nov 3, 2009 11:50pm Nov 3, 2009 11:50pm
Quoting enivid
It's actually possible to operate the grid strategy in MT5. Right now, it would be very difficult to do, but with a certain automation (and such scripts will appear soon), it's possible with the same profit/loss result as in MT4.
It is clear that this stupid enivid has no idea how to trade with a grid strategy... with the mt5 simply it is not possible to trade grids... as some other traders said, the Mt5 obviously was made to enrich brokers at the expense of traders.
  • #302
  • Nov 4, 2009 12:05am Nov 4, 2009 12:05am
Since 7bit has such a clear understanding of MT5 grid trading - Wait, Wait... just a sec.. - Why dont make a simple MT5 gridder and sell the concept to a few EA publishers. (Or sell it yourself) - I'm dying to see it and I'm not being sarcastic. - I dont even need to see the code. I just want to see the statement running next to hedge grid with the same spacing and both taking the same trades. - I don't think its possible but you seem to have the math worked out. If you can make it work I can practically guarantee that you'd be stuffing your pockets with cash. - The only thing your website needs to show is the hedge grid and the MT5 grid and you'd have traders climbing over themselves to give you money. (Hell, I'd be FIRST in Line!)
  • #303
  • Nov 4, 2009 5:47am Nov 4, 2009 5:47am
I smell some idiots in this thread.
  • #304
  • Nov 4, 2009 6:27am Nov 4, 2009 6:27am
Quoting 7bit
I smell some idiots in this thread.
You'll possibly go mad trying to convince these folk that even the most complex hedge can be replicated by a single net position, which can easily be facilitated by an automated order entry system that complies with all NFA rulings. The no-hedge and FIFO rulings are effectively a non-issue.

I had the same problem in three other threads - here, here and here - some months back. After spending many hours explaining how to work around the 'problem', I finally gave up before I tore all of my hair out. People will believe whatever they want to believe.

Having the NFA dictate terms has understandably made a lot of traders angry, leading to the same disrespect and name-calling in those threads. Anybody who dared to offer an alternative angle was accused of complicity with the NFA. Apparently people blinkered by anger and conspiracy theories are less receptive to even the most straight-forward of solutions.
  • #305
  • Edited 7:48am Nov 4, 2009 7:33am | Edited 7:48am
Originally Posted by 7bit
I have an MT4 -> Oanda bridge here that will translate any trading activity done by MT4 expert advisors or manual trading, even many different EAs at the same time on the same pair, hedging, non-FIFO and everything into the Oanda one position system by doing nothing else than constantly summing up all MT4 trades and deciding how to change the oanda position (buy/sell) to always hold it at the same net position that was calculated for MT4. It simply works!

Quoting aquaart
Self made EAs I suppose. Well done, hope many pips come your way.
7bit isn't talking about an MT5 system. In Oanda you easily create accounts and FXSpyder can break up trades accordingly. However now you have TWO accounts that can martingale and only HALF the funds to cover same since you need to split your funds among the accounts. Moreover as I mentioned previously Oanda is closed when the market opens for three hours and their fund transfer is offline. Worse the market is prone to spike during Sunday open leaving you no recourse. Either you need to waste even more funds as insurance, which is no guarantee you will lose it all. Or you need to gamble that the rain will follow your plow.

Mappings aren't useful if they're not isomorphic. The Oanda system is identical to MT4, above limitations excepted. MT5 AFAIK is many to one: Something different altogether.

Quoting hanover
You'll possibly go mad trying to convince these folk that even the most complex hedge can be replicated by a single net position, which can easily be facilitated by an automated order entry system that complies with all NFA rulings. The no-hedge and FIFO rulings are effectively a non-issue.
If you can't prove it mathematically then who is the real religious nutcake? Also MT5 is rumored to have crimeware bundled. Most would call is spyware, but really it's STEALING your proprietary, invaluable intellectual property. Lastly, conspiracies always precede wars in case you history teacher was sub-par. They are not to be dismissed except by the losing team.

Anyway nice threads thnx.
  • #306
  • Edited 9:29am Nov 4, 2009 8:29am | Edited 9:29am
Quoting rossiya
7bit isn't talking about an MT5 system. In Oanda you easily create accounts and FXSpyder can break up trades accordingly.
I am not talking about multiple accounts and i am not talking about fxspyder.

All my bridge needs is one oanda account with one position and all it does is to issue buy and sell orders to keep the oanda position identical to the MT4 position. Since it is obvious that buy and sell orders is all you need to trade *any* strategy, this simply works.

Quoting rossiya
Moreover as I mentioned previously Oanda is closed when the market opens for three hours and their fund transfer is offline.
Oanda is open 24/7 and i dont need to transfer funds because i only need one account.

I also dont need 42 different bank accounts to do complicated accounting, all i need for that is one bank account, a book and a pencil and a pocket calculator. and i can even leave the pocket calculator away and still don't lose money. And even if i lose the book i still have the money!

Quoting rossiya
Mappings aren't useful if they're not isomorphic.
The mapping doesn't need to be isomorphic, i only want to map in one direction, therefore a many-to-one mapping is sufficient as long as the mapping is defined for all elements.

And the above is clearly the case, since the mapping is composed only of addition in R. You wont find any two real numbers that you cant add together in R.

Quoting rossiya
The Oanda system is identical to MT4, above limitations excepted. MT5 AFAIK is many to one: Something different altogether.
Oanda is not identical to MT4 in terms of trade accounting, i only have one net position and i dont use takeprofit nor stoploss orders, all i use is buy and sell orders and a total position.

And i also care little about which lot i sell first, just as little as I care about which one of the 10€ bills in my pocket i spend first. They are all identical.

And talking about FIFO: If I buy physical gold, one ounce per month and put it into my safe, what do you think does it matter which one of these ounces I sell first if i decide to sell some of them? Should i sell the profitable ounces first or should i keep them? How do i tell a profitble ounce from an unprofitable one? Should i put them in different safes so they can't interfere with each other?
  • #307
  • Nov 4, 2009 8:31am Nov 4, 2009 8:31am
Quoting rossiya
If you can't prove it mathematically then who is the real religious nutcake?
It has all been proven more than once, scroll back and read it.
  • #308
  • Nov 4, 2009 8:58am Nov 4, 2009 8:58am
Quoting Ruslander
It is clear that this stupid enivid has no idea how to trade with a grid strategy... with the mt5 simply it is not possible to trade grids... as some other traders said, the Mt5 obviously was made to enrich brokers at the expense of traders.
It's possible to trade grids on MT5. You won't have many visible open position in different directions like in MT4, but the result will be the same, read the post about grid MT5 trading by 7bit.
  • #309
  • Nov 4, 2009 9:01am Nov 4, 2009 9:01am
Quoting Aja
Since 7bit has such a clear understanding of MT5 grid trading - Wait, Wait... just a sec.. - Why dont make a simple MT5 gridder and sell the concept to a few EA publishers. (Or sell it yourself) - I'm dying to see it and I'm not being sarcastic. - I dont even need to see the code. I just want to see the statement running next to hedge grid with the same spacing and both taking the same trades. - I don't think its possible but you seem to have the math worked out. If you can make it work I can practically guarantee...
I've never had an interest in grid EAs - neither before in MT4, nor now in MT5, but I could convert some basic MT4 grid EA for you. But the problem is that without OnTrade() event implemented (MT5 is still in beta and not all of its function are working now), it will be a lot of unnecessary work. When this event is implemented I will do such conversion (if no other MQL coder makes MT5 grid EA until that).
  • #310
  • Nov 4, 2009 9:03am Nov 4, 2009 9:03am
Quoting 7bit
And talking about FIFO: If I buy physical gold, one ounce per month and put it into my safe, what do you think does it matter which one of these ounces I sell first if i decide to sell some of them? Should i sell the profitable ounces first or should i keep them? How do i tell a profitble ounce from an unprofitable one? Should i put them in different safes so they can't interfere with each other?
One of the best and simplest explanations of the actual effect of the FIFO .
  • #311
  • Nov 4, 2009 11:54am Nov 4, 2009 11:54am
Quoting rossiya
If you can't prove it mathematically then who is the real religious nutcake?
Assuming we're talking about the same thing, the mathematical proof(s) are self-evident, and have been explained many times in the thread links that I provided. Look for posts by merlin, smittens4212, pipmutt, philmcgrew, birdt and others. In the first thread, Merlin offered $100,000 to anybody able to publish a hedging system that he couldn't replicate with a 'net position' alternative. I doubt that anybody won the bet.

There's also an excellent thread debunking hedging here. Hedging in itself offers no tangible edge; in fact hedgers pay more swap and spread than traders who use the 'net position' approach. All this is explained further here and here. My summary here.

Anyway, I'm not going to get into all this again. The material is already there for those who want to read it.
  • #312
  • Nov 4, 2009 6:32pm Nov 4, 2009 6:32pm
Quoting hanover
Assuming we're talking about the same thing, the mathematical proof(s) are self-evident, and have been explained many times in the thread links that I provided. Look for posts by merlin, smittens4212, pipmutt, philmcgrew, birdt and others. In the first thread, Merlin offered $100,000 to anybody able to publish a hedging system that he couldn't replicate with a 'net position' alternative. I doubt that anybody won the bet.

There's also an excellent thread debunking...
Oh yeah, the "self evident" proof. So in other words, you're just putting it out there on blind faith You're not a mathematician you're a trader. That's fine as an opinion, though I personally require mathematical justification or proof. So far all I've seen in threads is "abelian subgroup", 2+2=4 and some arithmetic. No proofs, theorems or peer reviewed journals whatsoever. Moreover in the threads you provided there are traders who employ hedging on scalping with 70% success. So your assertion it doesn't work is obviously wrong by counterexample.

In reality the market has indecisive points that result in a war between bears and bulls. If it gets dragged out it's very simple to hedge lock the account so one can leave the terminal for a while. Ofter upon return the situation has worked out and trending has resumed. Hedging in a ranging market is the sensible choice. Your suggestion that one take a beating in a sideways ranging market is laughable!
  • #313
  • Nov 4, 2009 9:53pm Nov 4, 2009 9:53pm
Quoting rossiya
You're not a mathematician you're a trader.
LOL, I wish!

People can believe whatever they wish, they'll get no argument from me. I'm afraid I don't have the time or the patience for it.

I'm a programmer who's found workarounds that satisfy me personally. Having provided links, I'm not going to re-type what's already been written a dozen times before. Those who seriously want answers will perform the necessary research with an open mind.

Not sure where I recommended taking a beating in a sideways market, though. I thought the goal was to make money.


@Craig: sorry, I've been having internet problems, I just re-posted.
  • #314
  • Edited 9:58pm Nov 4, 2009 9:58pm | Edited 9:58pm
There is no point in trying to be reasonable, you'll just be repaid with another astoundingly misinformed personal attack, just leave them to it. Rossiya & co. will entertain no other opinion past their own, which is as everyone with a IQ above room temperature knows is farcical, if not bordering on delusional. This thread is proof that there are people who genuinely want to help, and those that are genuinely beyond help.
The breaking of a wave cannot explain the whole sea.
  • #315
  • Nov 4, 2009 10:05pm Nov 4, 2009 10:05pm
Quoting Craig
.......everyone with a IQ above room temperature......
I guess you don't use the Kelvin scale, then?
  • #316
  • Nov 4, 2009 10:33pm Nov 4, 2009 10:33pm
Quoting hanover
I guess you don't use the Kelvin scale, then?
No, that would be somewhat misleading in this case
The breaking of a wave cannot explain the whole sea.
  • #317
  • Edited 2:32am Nov 5, 2009 1:57am | Edited 2:32am
Quoting Craig
There is no point in trying to be reasonable, you'll just be repaid with another astoundingly misinformed personal attack, just leave them to it. Rossiya & co. will entertain no other opinion past their own, which is as everyone with a IQ above room temperature knows is farcical, if not bordering on delusional. This thread is proof that there are people who genuinely want to help, and those that are genuinely beyond help.
Oh sorry I didn't know this is the mighty CHURCH of forex. I forgot i must accept things at face value and not ask questions because YOU have some kind of mysterious, unwritten authority. Your mystics can summon an ancient and powerful secret truth only available to bluebloods. You are the king and I bow down. Now send me your signals or I will plead with the Archbishop to have you excommunicated and your kingdom leveled into chattel.

Quoting hanover
I'm a programmer who's found workarounds that satisfy me personally. Having provided links, I'm not going to re-type what's already been written a dozen times before. Those who seriously want answers will perform the necessary research with an open mind.
So, no links to that research PROVING the FIFO no-hedge NFA rig is isomorphic to MT4? Well you're a hacker and hey there's always a crack you'll be able to pry wider. FYI IQ is how well you take instructions. Not my cup of tea since discovering most in the USA are operating on unadulterated b.s. That has no bearing toward hackers who claim to possess fictional maths proofs, though. Well do please carry on. Nothing to see here. Move along.
  • #318
  • Nov 5, 2009 3:54am Nov 5, 2009 3:54am
Quoting rossiya
Move along.
OK, no problem. Sorry that the links weren't helpful to you.
  • #319
  • Nov 5, 2009 6:15am Nov 5, 2009 6:15am
(deleted, double post)
  • #320
  • Nov 5, 2009 6:21am Nov 5, 2009 6:21am
Quoting rossiya
Oh sorry I didn't know this is the mighty CHURCH of forex. I forgot i must accept things at face value and not ask questions
You didn't ask any question so far, you are just permanently stating absurd things that already have been formally proven wrong.

Quoting rossiya
So, no links to that research PROVING the FIFO no-hedge NFA rig is isomorphic
Who told you it would be isomorphic? The mapping simply must be defined, thats all! The mapping is surjective!

Here again the mapping for you, this time please write it down so you don't forget it another time:

The mapping function for the exposure is just the sum of all MT4 trades to calculate the needed MT5 net position:

Inserted Code
trade1, ..., traden            -> trade1 + ... + traden
The mapping function for entry and exit orders is defined as follows:

Inserted Code
buy at market                  -> buy at market
sell at market                 -> sell at market
buy limit                      -> buy limit
sell limit                     -> sell limit
buy stop                       -> buy stop
sell stop                      -> sell stop
close long trade at market     -> sell at market
close short trade at market    -> buy at market
long takeprofit                -> sell limit
long stoploss                  -> sell stop
short takeprofit               -> buy limit
short stoploss                 -> buy stop


You dont need to map back from MT5 to MT4, and in case you want then there are many inverse mappings. Since the above mapping is surjective you will find at least one, which one you use doesn't matter!

If you find any of the above mappings incorrect then clearly prove it wrong, else shut up and stop talking nonsense.
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