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  • #261
  • Edited 9:34am Oct 31, 2009 9:16am | Edited 9:34am
Quoting aquaart
It is about not knowing which trade (and position in MT4) to take first.
But this is a problem of the trading strategy itself, not a problem of how to execute the trades once you are sure what you want to trade.

in MT4 you open a long position of x lots with s/l and t/p, a few minutes later you additionally open a short position of y lots with another s/l and another t/p

in MT5 you would have bought x lots and place two OCO pending sell orders of x lots as your s/l and t/p of the first trade. Then a few minutes later you would have sold y lots and place two pending OCO buy orders of y lots (representing the second trade's s/l and t/p).

Now you are long with a total of x-y lots (or short y-x lots if the second trade was bigger, or flat if they were equal)

Lets assume you are now flat because both trades were equal size. Being flat perfectly represents the state you are in: you don't know what will happen next. But you still have some pending orders around, a buy limit below (that was the t/p of the second trade) and a sell limit above (that was the t/p of the first trade). If it would have t/p 'd both trades in MT4 (no matter which one first) this would mean that in MT5 it will first hit one of the limit orders and then the other to close it again, if one of the MT4 trades had hit s/l this would mean in MT5 it first hit one of the limit orders and then the stop order behind it (or if the stops were tighter first the stop and then the limit behind it or in the worst case both stop orders hit).

No matter how complicated the MT4 example may be, you will always be able to replicate it exactly with MT5. Thats why i think such an indicator would be useful to actually show you how this would have been done in MT5, let it analyze your trading (historic and real time) and plot right into the chart where you are (or have been) long, short or flat and what kind and size of limit and stop orders you would have placed to achieve this same result in MT5.
  • #262
  • Oct 31, 2009 9:31am Oct 31, 2009 9:31am
3. Then you wait for the first or the second position to hit the target, but you don't know which one of the two will do it, right?

No, (A B) normally both will go to profit (but I don't know which one goes first), but (C D) occassionally only one goes to profit the other loss (neutral).

(A B) If this happened all the time then using MT5 would be an easy transition for both possibilities of how it could occur.
Same with (C) trend only profit (D) counter trend only profit.

The problem is you do not know which one of these 4 scenarios A B C or D is going to occur.
In MT4 I could just leave it and no matter which scenario played out first
I would be neutral for scenarios C and D, while for scenario A and B I would make profit.
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  • #263
  • Edited 10:04am Oct 31, 2009 9:45am | Edited 10:04am
Quoting 7bit
But this is a problem of the trading strategy itself, not a problem of how to execute the trades
No, it is a strategy that works in multi - position MT4 but will not work in single position MT5 without significantly greater complexity.


Hence, I will agree that I was wrong about the theoretical scenarios that I produced. But now you can see why I had such a focus on a neutral result in MT4 as a workable strategy.

In MT5 it is workable sometimes and other times it just increases complexity.
  • #264
  • Oct 31, 2009 9:48am Oct 31, 2009 9:48am
However, as it turns out, the example used above, I would have been able to replicate equal results in MT5 as the scenario that played out was scenario B.

Where double profit was recognised.
  • #265
  • Oct 31, 2009 1:22pm Oct 31, 2009 1:22pm
OK, let's look at the examples C and D as they would go in MT4 and MT5.

Example C in MT4:

1. You are in LONG and encounter counter-trend signal.
2. You open a SHORT position.
3. Trends almost immediately reverses back up.
4. You gain from the LONG and lose from SHORT.
5. At some point you decide to close SHORT and then only gain from LONG.
6. You close LONG at your next target.

Example C in MT5:

1. You are in LONG and encounter counter-trend signal.
2. You close your LONG position.
3. Trends almost immediately reverses back up.
4. You don't gain or lose as you are out of the market.
5. At some point you decide to re-open LONG and start gaining from it.
6. You close LONG at your next target.

Result:

In MT4 you gain the same profit from LONG to cover the loss from SHORT and then you gain profit from LONG after closing the SHORT.

In MT5 you don't lose or gain when you close LONG at counter-trend signal and you gain on LONG after re-opening it.

The profit/loss is the same in both cases.


Example D in MT4:

1. You are in LONG and encounter counter-trend signal.
2. You open a SHORT position.
3. Trends goes down and you close SHORT for some profit. At some point re-open LONG as you believe that the downtrend is over.
4. You expect trend to go up, but you keep losing from the downtrend.
5. At some point you close your LONG for some loss.

Example D in MT5:

1. You are in LONG and encounter counter-trend signal.
2. You close your LONG position. You don't have open positions now.
3. Trends goes down and you save your balance from the loss that would have occurred on LONG. At some point re-open LONG as you believe that the downtrend is over.
4. You expect trend to go up but you keep losing from the downtrend.
5. At some point you close LONG for some loss.

Result:

In MT4 you gain the same profit from SHORT to cover the loss from LONG and then you experience loss from LONG after closing the SHORT.

In MT5 you don't lose or gain when you close LONG at counter-trend signal and you lose on LONG after re-opening it.

The profit/loss is the same in both cases.

Quoting aquaart
3. Then you wait for the first or the second position to hit the target, but you don't know which one of the two will do it, right?

No, (A B) normally both will go to profit (but I don't know which one goes first), but (C D) occassionally only one goes to profit the other loss (neutral).

(A B) If this happened all the time then using MT5 would be an easy transition for both possibilities of how it could occur.
Same with (C) trend only profit (D) counter trend only profit.

The problem is you do not know which one of these 4 scenarios...
  • #266
  • Oct 31, 2009 2:56pm Oct 31, 2009 2:56pm
Quoting lyes
Simply put, if you buy a CAR and sell the same CAR 5 mn after, you have no CAR in your position, you are flat.
Did you mean a CAR, like with four wheels?
  • #267
  • Oct 31, 2009 3:44pm Oct 31, 2009 3:44pm
Quoting enivid
OK, let's look at the examples C and D as they would go in MT4 and MT5.

Example C in MT4:

1. You are in LONG and encounter counter-trend signal.
2. You open a SHORT position.
3. Trends almost immediately reverses back up.
4. You gain from the LONG and lose from SHORT.
5. At some point you decide to close SHORT and then only gain from LONG.
6. You close LONG at your next target.

Example C in MT5:

1. You are in LONG and encounter counter-trend signal.
2. You close your LONG position.
3. Trends almost immediately reverses back up.
4....
In GBPJPY we just had a 5 day downtrend, with an uptrend ensconced on Thursday. With MT4 I simply kept my 5day short and played the uptrend on the hourly. With your MT5 I would have been forced to exit my profitable trade and speculate on the bullish spike, even while the downtrend may be only 1/3 through it's movement.

Your points are lame because they are retrospective. Of course in retrospect the historic priceline can be broken into zigzags. There's an MT4 indicator that does exactly that. But neither you or it work PROSPECTIVELY, because neither of you know what the next bar will do.

Real traders have to work in forward time, and not your imaginary reverse-time broker-verse. They can't afford to toss out a profitable trade simply because a short-term opportunity emerges in the other direction.
  • #268
  • Oct 31, 2009 6:59pm Oct 31, 2009 6:59pm
Quoting rossiya
Did you mean a CAR, like with four wheels?
yes, that was just an image lol
  • #269
  • Oct 31, 2009 7:03pm Oct 31, 2009 7:03pm
Quoting 7bit
This question is answered in post #218. Commissions are proportional to the lot size of the transaction and it was clearly shown and mathematically proven that the costs for equal strategies are equal in MT4 and MT5 because the total sum of traded lots is equal in all cases.
agreed, however, i am pretty sure in real live practive, closing several order and reopening may lead to more requote (at worse 2) and some price movement in between, we could expect that just 1 order to close and eventually reverse will be more efficient....well...if managed correctly in MT5, i mean, this time, the closing price and the reopening price should be correct , beside the spread of course, however i havent tested MT5 in a real live account, so it could turn out that MT5 is just wrapping the old MT4 behaviour, i guess, when broker will offer MT5 on live account then we will see.
  • #270
  • Edited 1:27am Nov 1, 2009 1:02am | Edited 1:27am
Quoting enivid
The profit/loss is the same in both cases.
Yes agreed,

I leave a potentially profitable buy position open, and open the conflicting small sell position that I see. This is MT4.

versus

I close a potentially profitable buy position at a small loss, because I see a conflicting sell trade but enter a buy limit and sell limit at points that are key points that would recover that small loss. This is MT5.

Which one is easier?

I would have to say the MT4 version.

I mean even in the words that I use to describe, the MT4 v MT5 scenario you can see that MT4 is simpler / easier for real trading.
  • #271
  • Edited 7:00am Nov 1, 2009 6:14am | Edited 7:00am
Quoting rossiya
Real traders [...] can't afford to toss out a profitable trade simply because a short-term opportunity emerges in the other direction.
They can and they do. They can "afford" it because there are no additional costs associated with it.

They did it already all the time in MT4 by clicking the "sell" button while being in a long-term long position and setting a takeprofit as short-term target and they do the very same thing in MT5 by also clicking the "sell" button and seting a buy-limit as short-term target. The only difference is that it is called buy-limit (or sell-limit) instead of take-profit and sell-stop (or buy-stop) instead of stop-loss!

The outcome is the same. Read the thread again until you understand, it has all been said and explained a hundred times.
  • #272
  • Edited 7:04am Nov 1, 2009 6:28am | Edited 7:04am
Quoting lyes
agreed, however, i am pretty sure in real live practive, closing several order and reopening may lead to more requote (at worse 2) and some price movement in between, [...]
I think there is a misconception here, i always here "close and open [opposite position]" as if it were two distinct operations. This is not the case, it is done in one operation, just like in MT4: If you are 3 lots long and want to go short with 5 lots for a quick high probability scalp you simply sell 8 lots and your takeprofit is a buy limit of 8 lots that will restore the original position. You dont close 3 and then sell 5, you just sell 8!

Quoting lyes
so it could turn out that MT5 is just wrapping the old MT4 behaviour, i guess, when broker will offer MT5 on live account then we will see.
Not MT5 is a wrapper around MT4, its the other way around: MT4 was a convenience wrapper around the MT5 behavior which is the standard in the markets. You were trading the MT5 way all the time, it just displayed funny virtual numbers on your computer screen, like having 200000 virtual (hedged) dollars in the market while in reality you were completely flat!
  • #273
  • Nov 1, 2009 6:39am Nov 1, 2009 6:39am
Quoting aquaart
I mean even in the words that I use to describe, the MT4 v MT5 scenario you can see that MT4 is simpler / easier for real trading.
There will soon be simple scripts that you can invoke that will just wrap the old MT4 behvior around the MT5 model, scripts that let you just specify the takeprofit and stoploss and that care about the OCO stuff, trailing stops, closing the "trade" (together with its stop and limit) manually with a mouse click and so on and maybe even display this "trade"'s floating profit in isolation (minus all other floating) while it is running.

the same stuff that has been done on the MT4 server all the time to translate the unusual MT4 behavior into a flat model that the underlying market can deal with can also be done client side with the help of a few scripts.
  • #274
  • Nov 1, 2009 1:09pm Nov 1, 2009 1:09pm
Quoting rossiya
In GBPJPY we just had a 5 day downtrend, with an uptrend ensconced on Thursday. With MT4 I simply kept my 5day short and played the uptrend on the hourly. With your MT5 I would have been forced to exit my profitable trade and speculate on the bullish spike, even while the downtrend may be only 1/3 through it's movement.
But you would close your BULLISH trade at some point in MT4, wouldn't you? In MT5 you would just reopened a BEARISH at that point. And the out come would be the same. You aren't missing any profits that way.

Quoting rossiya
Your points are lame because they are retrospective. Of course in retrospect the historic priceline can be broken into zigzags. There's an MT4 indicator that does exactly that. But neither you or it work PROSPECTIVELY, because neither of you know what the next bar will do.
Yes, bashing me with the words like "lame" instead of trying to understand my point (or try it on practice) is what makes this discussion look funny .

Quoting rossiya
Real traders have to work in forward time, and not your imaginary reverse-time broker-verse. They can't afford to toss out a profitable trade simply because a short-term opportunity emerges in the other direction.
You aren't "tossed out" of the profitable trade. In MT5 you reopen it the same moment you close counter-trend position in MT4.
  • #275
  • Nov 1, 2009 1:11pm Nov 1, 2009 1:11pm
Quoting aquaart
I leave a potentially profitable buy position open, and open the conflicting small sell position that I see. This is MT4.

versus

I close a potentially profitable buy position at a small loss, because I see a conflicting sell trade but enter a buy limit and sell limit at points that are key points that would recover that small loss. This is MT5.
Actually if you set limit orders to reenter position in MT5, you have to set up take-profit/stop-loss trades in MT4 for the short position. Which makes the overall situation quite equal.
  • #276
  • Edited 6:29pm Nov 1, 2009 6:14pm | Edited 6:29pm
Quoting enivid
But you would close your BULLISH trade at some point in MT4, wouldn't you? In MT5 you would just reopened a BEARISH at that point. And the out come would be the same. You aren't missing any profits that way.
Look I'm not going to close my profitable GBPJPY short for you or anyone. That's exactly where loss begins. I'm forced to do an extra trade AND be there when it happens. Typically on hourly reversals I just implement a trailing stop. With your system I have to sit there all day then reenter my original short trade.

Quoting enivid
Yes, bashing me with the words like "lame" instead of trying to understand my point (or try it on practice) is what makes this discussion look funny .

You aren't "tossed out" of the profitable trade. In MT5 you reopen it the same moment you close counter-trend position in MT4.
What's really funny is a guy claiming that I should exit a profitable short trade, then stay beside the terminal up all day and night and pay commission to reenter. IS that some new form of slavery? You sound like a typical USA sellout peddling your new fishbowl retail FOREX as the new reality. Right up there with that shill Donald J. Boudreaux who declared insider trading a good thing last week. Obviously there is an USA movement underway to make a Disneyland retail FOREX.

I can go outside and transact a long and short trade right on the street. Yet you advocate some kind of candyland where the broker nit-picks my trades, rejecting those that thwart his countertrade profits. Fortunately it's easy to avoid your skulduggery by avoiding the USA, amen.

Quoting enivid
Actually if you set limit orders to reenter position in MT5, you have to set up take-profit/stop-loss trades in MT4 for the short position. Which makes the overall situation quite equal.
No they're not equal in MT4, because I'm not setting SL or TP in any normal bar range. The market is headed down and it's may be a continuation trade with several daily bullish countertrades along the way. It sounds like that is way over your head.
Attached Image
  • #277
  • Nov 1, 2009 6:40pm Nov 1, 2009 6:40pm
...
Attached Image
The breaking of a wave cannot explain the whole sea.
  • #278
  • Nov 1, 2009 7:14pm Nov 1, 2009 7:14pm
  •  onu
  • | Joined Feb 2006 | Status: superior senior member | 746 Posts
Quoting Craig
...

goooood one
  • #279
  • Edited 9:25pm Nov 1, 2009 8:58pm | Edited 9:25pm
Quoting rossiya
What's really funny is a guy claiming that I should exit a profitable short trade, then stay beside the terminal up all day and night and pay commission to reenter. IS that some new form of slavery?

I am writing this with a bigger font now since you obviously seem to have problems deciphering the small letters:

1. you don't pay one single cent more commission or spread, there is NO difference, this has already been mathematically proven in this thread, put your glasses on, scroll back and read it!

2. You don't have to stay up all night, instead you place pending limit and stop orders at the very same prices and with the very same lot sizes (thus the exact same commissions or spread cost) like you would have done in MT4, and if you want to trail the stops automatically then let them trail automatically! What's the problem?

You really must be a troll, these simple facts can't be so difficult to understand!
  • #280
  • Nov 2, 2009 4:56am Nov 2, 2009 4:56am
Quoting enivid
OK, let's look at the examples C and D as they would go in MT4 and MT5.


Result:

In MT4 you gain the same profit from LONG to cover the loss from SHORT and then you gain profit from LONG after closing the SHORT.

In MT5 you don't lose or gain when you close LONG at counter-trend signal and you gain on LONG after re-opening it.

The profit/loss is the same in both cases.

Result:

In MT4 you gain the same profit from SHORT to cover the loss from LONG and then you experience loss from LONG after closing the SHORT.

In MT5 you don't...
This guy Enivid is so stupid, trying to teach us how to trade.... Enivid, tell me, wtf are you trying to prove? are you "defending" metaquotes?
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