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  • #41
  • Oct 25, 2009 2:19pm Oct 25, 2009 2:19pm
Quoting Pharoah
Normally I would agree, however, their mission is much more clear cut than any other broker out there, they don't hide behind anything and tell you exactly what's going on, unlike the dozens upon dozens of NFA/CTFC regulated brokers. Not to mention, their not a "Broker" in the loose sense of the term, they themselves are traders that are uniting with other traders to break from the broker limitations to receive true thin spreads on a LQ to broker level, instead of a LQ to Retail level.
Interesting. Since it basically comes down to spreads, have you compared them live to the post-commission spreads on the major retail ECNs?

I rely upon market depth data for my position sizes, so any non-ECN "quote-only" platform is out of the running for me. It would be nice if they could offer that, but it's really a short-coming of MT4, not of their liquidity providers.

With DB as one of their LPs, liquidity likely isn't a concern, but it's critical for me to know how much is backing each quote. For example, FXCM-AT is showing some razor thin spreads, but only 1M size at the inside. You throw anything higher at it and you'll be slipped, so the spread is only part of the picture (although not an issue if you're trading <1M).
  • #42
  • Oct 25, 2009 2:23pm Oct 25, 2009 2:23pm
  •  onu
  • | Joined Feb 2006 | Status: superior senior member | 746 Posts
u dont get it...re-read my post

where did u see "claims of regulated brokers being safer"??

this is truly not valid for US brokers!! Just google for "refco" or "FXLQ"...

But there are options in UK and AUS, best regulated, money safe and no fancy NFA rules.
  • #43
  • Oct 25, 2009 3:41pm Oct 25, 2009 3:41pm
Quoting onu
u dont get it...re-read my post

where did u see "claims of regulated brokers being safer"??

this is truly not valid for US brokers!! Just google for "refco" or "FXLQ"...

But there are options in UK and AUS, best regulated, money safe and no fancy NFA rules.
my bad, was the wrong user, thought you were the one who posted about "no NFA/CFTC Regulation or physical address".

And I do understand exactly what your saying, I'm personally a fan of Swiss brokers, because of the laws put in place by the government (not some stupid regulatory group of high end traders like the NFA) which protect the investors capital, allows hedging in most cases. The Swiss government isn't going to jeopardize one of their main sources of revenue (Huge accounts for Huge business's/massively wealthy Swiss bank account holders).

I like Collective for my own reasons. They do have a physical address, they are working with some of the top liquidity providers of the world, and I believe in what their mission is, among other reasons.
  • #44
  • Oct 25, 2009 3:44pm Oct 25, 2009 3:44pm
Quoting Trader KGB
Interesting....
Yeah, I think the issue here is who is it good for, I'm a small personal trader, so for me it works fantastic.
  • #45
  • Oct 25, 2009 4:32pm Oct 25, 2009 4:32pm
Quoting Pharoah
Yeah, I think the issue here is who is it good for, I'm a small personal trader, so for me it works fantastic.
I'm glad they're working out well for you. It is a rather unique model, it'll be interesting to see how they continue to evolve.

Is DB the account custodian or Citi?
  • #46
  • Oct 25, 2009 4:58pm Oct 25, 2009 4:58pm
In my experience it is a huge disadvantage to be connected to one bank feed.

You will get only their prices.
They are not interested in offering better quotes from other institutes.
  • #47
  • Oct 25, 2009 7:35pm Oct 25, 2009 7:35pm
Quoting Trader KGB
I'm glad they're working out well for you. It is a rather unique model, it'll be interesting to see how they continue to evolve.

Is DB the account custodian or Citi?
Right now it's DB, as DB is still their LP, they havn't signed the deal with Citibank yet, it's just been inked out in contract form.
  • #48
  • Oct 25, 2009 7:37pm Oct 25, 2009 7:37pm
Quoting Mr-Forex
In my experience it is a huge disadvantage to be connected to one bank feed.

You will get only their prices.
They are not interested in offering better quotes from other institutes.
Well the actual price doesn't matter at all, as long as the spreads are thin, actual quotes could be a pip or two or three different from LP to LP, but the spreads is where it's at.
  • #49
  • Nov 18, 2009 4:17am Nov 18, 2009 4:17am
This thread was originally about the Deutsche Bank feed, but you guys may be aware that The Collective FX have changed to Citibank, and they seemed quite excited about it in their mail outs.

I decided to give them a try and opened a live account after testing my expert advisor on their demo feed with good results. However in the real money environment my scalping system lost money due to terrible slippage.

I've posted about this problem on another forum, but thought I should also post here to see if anyone here could share some insight, as I know some of you have prior experience/knowledge with The Collective FX e.g. Fulltime247.

Here are my expert advisor logs of real trading. I had programmed the expert advisor to print the execution duration (OrderSend()) and the slippage.

I've bolded the execution duration and slippage values below in the first trade open so that you can see it clearly. The times are UTC.

From NYC VPS (ping time to server is around 100ms):
Inserted Code
Sending order
open #1830419 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49559 ok
2009-11-16 13:30:36.101,sell,[b]1.7s[/b],1.49607,1.49607,1.49559,[b]4.8pips[/b]
Sending order
close #1830419 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49559 at price 1.49458
2009-11-16 13:32:00.533,close sell,4.7s,1.49422,1.49422,1.49458,3.6pips
Sending order
open #1830493 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49468 ok
2009-11-16 13:32:01.594,buy,1.1s,1.49423,1.49423,1.49468,4.5pips
Sending order
close #1830493 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49468 at price 1.49280
2009-11-16 17:15:38.995,close buy,32.3s,1.49654,1.49654,1.49280,37.4pips
Sending order
open #1831458 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49305 ok
2009-11-16 17:16:08.337,sell,29.3s,1.49319,1.49319,1.49305,1.4pips
Sending order
close #1831458 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49305 at price 1.49394
2009-11-16 17:16:45.961,close sell,27.0s,1.49315,1.49315,1.49394,7.9pips
Sending order
open #1831510 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49413 ok
2009-11-16 17:17:03.387,buy,17.4s,1.49331,1.49331,1.49413,8.2pips
Sending order
close #1831510 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49413 at price 1.49118
2009-11-16 17:18:52.483,close buy,98.5s,1.49391,1.49391,1.49118,27.3pips
Sending order
open #1831604 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49211 ok
2009-11-16 17:19:50.297,sell,57.4s,1.49182,1.49182,1.49211,-2.9pips
Sending order
close #1831604 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49211 at price 1.49274
2009-11-16 17:20:02.304,close sell,1.3s,1.49200,1.49200,1.49274,7.4pips
Sending order
open #1831621 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49282 ok
2009-11-16 17:20:03.506,buy,1.0s,1.49203,1.49200,1.49282,7.9pips
Sending order
close #1831621 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49282 at price 1.49253
2009-11-16 17:20:50.643,close buy,1.7s,1.49291,1.49291,1.49253,3.8pips
Sending order
open #1831669 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49283 ok
2009-11-16 17:20:52.236,sell,1.5s,1.49301,1.49301,1.49283,1.8pips
Sending order
close #1831669 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49283 at price 1.48928
2009-11-16 17:23:56.380,close sell,3.1s,1.48859,1.48859,1.48928,6.9pips
Sending order
open #1831777 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48938 ok
2009-11-16 17:23:58.393,buy,1.9s,1.48869,1.48869,1.48938,6.9pips
Sending order
close #1831777 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48938 at price 1.48980
2009-11-16 17:25:40.510,close buy,1.5s,1.49059,1.49059,1.48980,7.9pips
Sending order
open #1831864 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48978 ok
2009-11-16 17:25:45.447,sell,1.4s,1.49049,1.49033,1.48978,7.1pips
Sending order
close #1831864 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48978 at price 1.49056
2009-11-16 17:26:29.751,close sell,2.7s,1.48992,1.48992,1.49056,6.4pips
Sending order
open #1831902 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49084 ok
2009-11-16 17:26:30.853,buy,1.1s,1.48982,1.48982,1.49084,10.2pips
Sending order
close #1831902 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49084 at price 1.49013
2009-11-16 17:27:13.854,close buy,1.6s,1.49057,1.49057,1.49013,4.4pips
Sending order
open #1831928 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49054 ok
2009-11-16 17:27:18.701,sell,2.6s,1.49091,1.49091,1.49054,3.7pips
Sending order
close #1831928 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49054 at price 1.49063
2009-11-16 17:27:54.443,close sell,1.5s,1.49018,1.49018,1.49063,4.5pips
Sending order
open #1831945 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49067 ok
2009-11-16 17:27:55.504,buy,0.9s,1.49018,1.49018,1.49067,4.9pips
Sending order
close #1831945 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49067 at price 1.49043
2009-11-16 17:28:49.071,close buy,4.7s,1.49113,1.49113,1.49043,7.0pips
Sending order
open #1831971 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49078 ok
2009-11-16 17:28:51.775,sell,2.7s,1.49128,1.49128,1.49078,5.0pips
Sending order
close #1831971 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49078 at price 1.49120
2009-11-16 17:29:20.286,close sell,1.2s,1.49076,1.49076,1.49120,4.4pips
Sending order
open #1831982 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49127 ok
2009-11-16 17:29:26.064,buy,1.1s,1.49068,1.49068,1.49127,5.9pips
Sending order
close #1831982 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49127 at price 1.49049
2009-11-16 17:29:59.222,close buy,1.8s,1.49113,1.49113,1.49049,6.4pips
Sending order
open #1831994 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49058 ok
2009-11-16 17:30:01.465,sell,1.2s,1.49098,1.49098,1.49058,4.0pips
Sending order
close #1831994 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49058 at price 1.49118
2009-11-16 17:30:24.398,close sell,1.2s,1.49079,1.49079,1.49118,3.9pips
Sending order
open #1832009 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49118 ok
2009-11-16 17:30:29.496,buy,2.5s,1.49064,1.49064,1.49118,5.4pips
Sending order
close #1832009 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49118 at price 1.49299
2009-11-16 17:35:44.849,close buy,6.7s,1.49339,1.49339,1.49299,4.0pips
Sending order
open #1832069 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49293 ok
2009-11-16 17:36:01.824,sell,1.0s,1.49320,1.49320,1.49293,2.7pips
Sending order
close #1832069 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49293 at price 1.49232
2009-11-16 17:40:46.803,close sell,1.8s,1.49217,1.49217,1.49232,1.5pips
Sending order
open #1832211 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49521 ok
2009-11-16 17:50:28.119,buy,2.7s,1.49478,1.49478,1.49521,4.3pips
Sending order
close #1832211 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49521 at price 1.49590
2009-11-16 18:02:54.783,close buy,2.2s,1.49635,1.49635,1.49590,4.5pips
Sending order
open #1836372 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49456 ok
2009-11-17 08:15:18.163,sell,1.7s,1.49489,1.49489,1.49456,3.3pips
I then stopped and tried it at CNS NY (ping time to server is around 10ms):
Inserted Code
Sending order
close #1836372 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49456 at price 1.48588
2009-11-17 12:20:37.167,close sell,1.6s,1.48567,1.48567,1.48588,2.1pips
Sending order
open #1837826 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48660 ok
2009-11-17 12:47:07.057,sell,4.1s,1.48644,1.48642,1.48660,-1.6pips
Sending order
close #1837826 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48660 at price 1.48794
2009-11-17 13:17:34.689,close sell,1.4s,1.48833,1.48832,1.48794,-3.9pips
Sending order
open #1838077 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48821 ok
2009-11-17 13:30:19.022,sell,1.4s,1.48835,1.48834,1.48821,1.4pips
Sending order
close #1838077 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48821 at price 1.48915
2009-11-17 13:30:44.875,close sell,5.9s,1.48841,1.48841,1.48915,7.4pips
Sending order
open #1838088 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48912 ok
2009-11-17 13:30:46.190,buy,1.3s,1.48850,1.48850,1.48912,6.2pips
Sending order
close #1838088 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48912 at price 1.48823
2009-11-17 14:21:51.175,close buy,3.2s,1.48790,1.48790,1.48823,-3.3pips
Sending order
open #1838425 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48674 ok
2009-11-17 14:33:21.520,sell,1.9s,1.48728,1.48728,1.48674,5.4pips
Sending order
close #1838425 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48674 at price 1.48893
2009-11-17 14:54:33.392,close sell,2.0s,1.48848,1.48848,1.48893,4.5pips
Sending order
open #1838506 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48876 ok
2009-11-17 14:54:35.177,buy,1.8s,1.48852,1.48852,1.48876,2.4pips
Sending order
close #1838506 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48876 at price 1.48764
2009-11-17 14:55:31.454,close buy,1.4s,1.48801,1.48801,1.48764,3.7pips
Sending order
open #1838537 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48768 ok
2009-11-17 14:55:32.675,sell,1.2s,1.48804,1.48804,1.48768,3.6pips
Sending order
close #1838537 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48768 at price 1.48384
2009-11-17 16:04:44.164,close sell,6.2s,1.48386,1.48386,1.48384,-0.2pips
Sending order
open #1839075 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48352 ok
2009-11-17 16:15:21.059,buy,5.6s,1.48403,1.48403,1.48352,-5.1pips
Sending order
close #1839075 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48352 at price 1.48328
2009-11-17 16:31:08.888,close buy,2.4s,1.48388,1.48388,1.48328,6.0pips
Sending order
open #1839179 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48397 ok
2009-11-17 16:40:27.385,sell,1.6s,1.48431,1.48431,1.48397,3.4pips
Sending order
close #1839179 sell 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48397 at price 1.48153
2009-11-17 16:48:47.220,close sell,3.0s,1.48154,1.48159,1.48153,-0.1pips
Sending order
open #1839304 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48305 ok
2009-11-17 16:56:43.321,buy,1.5s,1.48265,1.48265,1.48305,4.0pips
Sending order
close #1839304 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.48305 at price 1.48291
2009-11-17 17:00:00.472,close buy,1.7s,1.48303,1.48303,1.48291,1.2pips
During all this time I was also trading with a JadeFX live account and have not had such problems; slippage is usually less than 1 pip, only occasionally 2 pips or greater, and execution duration is usually less than 1s.

I just hope it's just initial teething problems with the new liquidity provider. But if the current conditions continue to persist I simply can't survive at The Collective FX. There'd be no point for me to pay 147$ every month just to get large slippage on every trade.
  • #50
  • Nov 19, 2009 4:39am Nov 19, 2009 4:39am
"close #1831510 buy 0.10 EURUSD_fx at 1.49413 at price 1.49118
2009-11-16 17:18:52.483,close buy,98.5s,1.49391,1.49391,1.49118,27.3pips
"

An execution time of 98,5s??? Are you sure your calculations are correct? Otherwise dump them.

Anyway, scalping with a market maker is always problematic.
  • #51
  • Nov 19, 2009 7:21am Nov 19, 2009 7:21am
Quoting BlackMage
An execution time of 98,5s???
Yes, and a slippage of 27.3 pips. It was a little after "Fed Chairman Bernanke Speaks", which was at 17:15.

Quoting BlackMage
Are you sure your calculations are correct?
Everybody should be using code like this in their Expert Advisors to record execution durations:
Inserted Code
   int orderStartPointInTime = GetTickCount();
   int ticket = OrderSend(symbol, orderType, tradeSize, openPrice, OpenSlipAllowed, stopLossPrice, takeProfitPrice, OrderComment1, magicNumber, 0);
   double orderExecutionDurationInMs = GetTickCount() - orderStartPointInTime;
Quoting BlackMage
Otherwise dump them.
It's actually a bit difficult to join their "club". They are only occasionally open for new memberships, so if I leave it may be difficult to return any time in the future. But I'll try trading again maybe in a week to see if things have settled down. If not, I'll withdraw my cash before they charge me the 147$ monthly subscription fee.

Quoting BlackMage
Anyway, scalping with a market maker is always problematic.
The Collective FX are meant to be one of the "good guys" with pure institutional prices and Straight through processing, and nothing like a market maker. Though you could say that their liquidity provider is a market maker.

Could anyone who is trading live with The Collective FX please share their own experiences, so that I know whether or not I'm the only one who is seeing these problems.

Let's see if the title of this thread is still appropriate even after their very recent change to the new liquidity provider.
  • #52
  • Edited 8:14pm Nov 19, 2009 8:03pm | Edited 8:14pm
I traded with them BEFORE DB but left after I saw the new 'better' spreads. Looking at your info I see no reason to return. CFX was the BOMB!! before DB and Citi I have no idea what they're going for now. - I'm now with ATC and completely happy!!! - They're in the USA, I can hedge, trade inside the spread, dont deal with ridiculous stop/freeze levels, its only a flat fee of $8 per 100K (no matter the pair traded), and clients services are over the top - I'm in Heaven!! - Right now I dont see anyone else that even comes close. (Hell, I want a ATC T-Shirt to wear while I'm trading.)

Also noticed that you mentioned JadeFX. Do you like them? I was interested but i read this post and got turned off [http://www.forexnirvana.com/f11/jadefx-813/index6.html] - Are these issues fixed?
  • #53
  • Nov 19, 2009 8:39pm Nov 19, 2009 8:39pm
  •  onu
  • | Joined Feb 2006 | Status: superior senior member | 746 Posts
Quoting Aja
I traded with them BEFORE DB but left after I saw the new 'better' spreads. Looking at your info I see no reason to return. CFX was the BOMB!! before DB and Citi I have no idea what they're going for now. - I'm now with ATC and completely happy!!! - They're in the USA, I can hedge, trade inside the spread, dont deal with ridiculous stop/freeze levels, its only a flat fee of $8 per 100K (no matter the pair traded), and clients services are over the top - I'm in Heaven!! - Right now I dont see anyone else that even comes close. (Hell, I want a ATC...
How can u hedge ? They are member of NFA as they state on their page:

ATC Brokers is a member of the National Futures Association (NFA) and a registered Introducing Broker
with the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC).
  • #54
  • Nov 19, 2009 9:25pm Nov 19, 2009 9:25pm
Quoting Aja
I traded with them BEFORE DB but left after I saw the new 'better' spreads. Looking at your info I see no reason to return. CFX was the BOMB!! before DB and Citi I have no idea what they're going for now. - I'm now with ATC and completely happy!!! - They're in the USA, I can hedge, trade inside the spread, dont deal with ridiculous stop/freeze levels, its only a flat fee of $8 per 100K (no matter the pair traded), and clients services are over the top - I'm in Heaven!! - Right now I dont see anyone else that even comes close. (Hell, I want a ATC...
is ATC often requotes?? they an IB rite?? and is there microlot?
  • #55
  • Nov 19, 2009 9:55pm Nov 19, 2009 9:55pm
NO Requotes, Instant Fills - ATC just leases the FXCM feed for liquidity but your trades go through ATC servers so you're not subject to the trade manipulation that FXCM does. - Microlots after 0.10 minimum (0.11) - ATC can hedge for prob 2 reasons - #1 They're NOT a broker - FXCM has overseas offices and they can play that card if they wanted and #2 - They are NEVER the counterparty to the trades so some of the NFA rules dont apply to them.
  • #56
  • Nov 19, 2009 11:41pm Nov 19, 2009 11:41pm
  •  onu
  • | Joined Feb 2006 | Status: superior senior member | 746 Posts
Quoting Aja
NO Requotes, Instant Fills - ATC just leases the FXCM feed for liquidity but your trades go through ATC servers so you're not subject to the trade manipulation that FXCM does. - Microlots after 0.10 minimum (0.11) - ATC can hedge for prob 2 reasons - #1 They're NOT a broker - FXCM has overseas offices and they can play that card if they wanted and #2 - They are NEVER the counterparty to the trades so some of the NFA rules dont apply to them.
"ATC Brokers is a member of the National Futures Association (NFA) and a registered Introducing Broker
with the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC)."

so than what they write on their page is a lie? smells a bit fishy
  • #57
  • Nov 19, 2009 11:48pm Nov 19, 2009 11:48pm
Quoting Ricx
is ATC often requotes?? they an IB rite?? and is there microlot?
i have had invalid prices trading the G/J with em.

all my non 1 min trading is done with Gomarkets they have an excellent feed right now and I never have any issues. also they're aussie great advantage for me.
  • #58
  • Nov 20, 2009 12:10am Nov 20, 2009 12:10am
Quoting onu
"ATC Brokers is a member of the National Futures Association (NFA) and a registered Introducing Broker
with the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC)." so than what they write on their page is a lie? smells a bit fishy
Nothing fishy about their service with me. I joined them when they started and had glitches - The owner covered the cashloss out of his pocket without argument. I trade EURUSD so speads always under 1.0 - fast execution - great fills with no slippage on my stops/limits. I know quite a few traders with them and everyone's happy (just like me) - They are easily my best broker experience ever. (In fact I cant find a backup. CFX used to be my #2 but since DB/Citi...)
  • #59
  • Nov 20, 2009 5:39am Nov 20, 2009 5:39am
  •  onu
  • | Joined Feb 2006 | Status: superior senior member | 746 Posts
Quoting Aja
Nothing fishy about their service with me. I joined them when they started and had glitches - The owner covered the cashloss out of his pocket without argument. I trade EURUSD so speads always under 1.0 - fast execution - great fills with no slippage on my stops/limits. I know quite a few traders with them and everyone's happy (just like me) - They are easily my best broker experience ever. (In fact I cant find a backup. CFX used to be my #2 but since DB/Citi...)
U dont get the point.....

as NFA slave they just cant offer hedges ! U tell us u can hedge there....
  • #60
  • Nov 20, 2009 5:49am Nov 20, 2009 5:49am
I hedge EVERY day! - Its part of my EA's strategy. Thats why I chose ATC - I didnt want to move my account overseas and they are the only USA ECN that lets you hedge. - MBTrading/PFGBest wont let me hedge so I chose ATC because I can (as well as the low commish and great fills) - There are a few other USA shops you can hedge with (CFX, IamFX, Gallant, JadFX, FXDD, PrimeBankForex) but they're not ECN's so I stuck with ATC. - Actually nothing changed when the NFA rules went into effect. I can still do everything I could before the ruling. (hedging, inside spread trading, 0.4 fractional stop/freeze levels, etc.)
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