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Myth Busters the Forex Edition

  • #141
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  • Oct 8, 2009 4:05pm Oct 8, 2009 4:05pm
Quoting eclayf
Sauron, you have bought in to so many of the myths it would be hard to list them all. The fact is that pips is just as good as using all the % and $ based "accounting" systems for FX and may even be better psychologically.

If one counts pips, it's probably far less stressful than counting dollars, and far less complicated that counting the % of the trade or the account!

[color=black][font=Verdana]I have just turned the corner on being more consistent, after...
What a breath of fresh air
  • #142
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  • Edited 4:34pm Oct 8, 2009 4:22pm | Edited 4:34pm
Quoting mikkom
Pips don't tell you anything if you don't know all the trade sizes. dollars/euros don't tell anything if you don't know the account size. That's why percentages are the best - they tell you everything you need to know.....
In YOUR opinion % is best, but it tells you no more than pips do. It doens't tell you account size, risk used, or anything elst. If I am using huge risk, pips won't mean crap either.

The point of my post you totally missed. THE ONLY THING IMPOSSIBLE IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE IMPOSSIBLE!

We ALL, myself included have those limiting factors in our make up. That isn't the issue. The issue is why people seem hell bent on getting others to believe THEIR lies.

Those who go on to become successful learn to recoginze the lies in their psychology, challenge them, ultimately overcome them and grow. Those who don't stagnate and rot in them, never surpassing anything or growing.

If one is satisified with a 8 to 5 job, that's fine. Just don't run around telling everyone else in the world that's the only way it can be done. If you can only earn 20% per year, don't run around saying 20% a week is impossible.

There are many who make very, very substantial livings earning a whole lot more than 20% per week on their accounts. They withdraw the capital to live on and save and build a future.

Some let part of it compound continually growing the account as well. The ones who learn to compound the account AND live off it at the same time are the best traders, in my opinion.

I once helped build an ISP. Everyone told me not to waste my time, AOL and many other large ISP's had already cornered the market so to speak. I did it anyway.

That company went on to raise over 200 million from very large investors and I made (quite literally) my first million from it. When the markets crashed in 2001, it went BK, but I had already made my money.

Imagine that, an old country boy in the big city hanging with the "big boys" with not much more than a high school edumication did what they do and all because he wouldn't listen to the liars saying it couldn't be done.

Now, tell me why FX is any different? It's not. The ONLY ones to lose and never "make it" are the ones who give up. Most of the time, they give up because of the liars saying it can't be done and they listen to them.

MagnumFreak has it right. (the following modified and edited for space)
Quoting magnumfreak
So what is this big secret?? What is this all important concept that will determine whether you succeed at Forex or become just another statistic?

Among the 100's of thousands of threads on this site, there is not one single thread OR person who will ever make you successful at Forex. Not this thread, not any thread, period.

If you really want to improve your trading log off of this and any other trading site for the next month. Don't even think about logging in and checking someones posts. Focus on nothing but what is in between your ears...
Whole post here: #61

Having a mentor helps, but even that will not make one successful. You need to overcome YOUR limitations, not thiers. You need to make a strategy "YOURS" by relentlessly working with it until you become consistent with it, then continue growing and making small modifications until you reach what YOU want, not what someone else says is possible.

Personally, when ever someone says "It can't be done" I take it as a dead sure sign that it MUST be done!

Men MUST fly, MUST walk on the moon, MUST cross the ocean, MUST be free, MUST overcome their limitations and absolutely MUST learn to turn a deaf ear to those saying "it can't..........." whatever, you fill in the blank.

By the way Sauron, the word "realistic" is merely a euphemism for "it can't." Yes, one needs to crawl before they walk, walk before they run, and run before they break world records. Still, I think it is extremely humorous in that it took a mak with a bad knee to break the 4 minute mile, which obviously couldn't be done. Everyone knew a man couldn't run that fast.

It was an "unbreakable" barrier in those days. Now it's the standard. Isn't that funny!? Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-minute_mile
  • #143
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  • Oct 8, 2009 9:31pm Oct 8, 2009 9:31pm
Quoting endroute
You are absolutely correct there are big differences when using the same ma on different timeframes......... These are by no means the only tools I use to determine good entries, but they are pretty effective stand alone strategies.
Again, ER, many thanks for sharing. Some new ideas for me to work on, many of which could be easily and seamlessly integrated into my existing approach.

_______________
Quoting eclayf
........
Having a mentor helps, but even that will not make one successful. You need to overcome YOUR limitations, not theirs. You need to make a strategy "YOURS" by relentlessly working with it until you become consistent with it, then continue growing and making small modifications until you reach what YOU want, not what someone else says is possible.
.........
Clay, many thanks for your insightful and inspirational posts! You've likewise given me a lot to think about...... there are a lot of perceived limitations swirling around in my head that I would be much better off without.

I've just re-read this entire thread....... some very thought-provoking stuff, well for me at least. Many thanks to everybody who's contributed.
  • #144
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  • Oct 8, 2009 9:32pm Oct 8, 2009 9:32pm
Quoting endroute
You are absolutely correct there are big differences when using the same ma on different timeframes......... These are by no means the only tools I use to determine good entries, but they are pretty effective stand alone strategies.
Again, ER, many thanks for sharing. Some new ideas for me to work on, many of which could be easily and seamlessly integrated into my existing approach.

_______________
Quoting eclayf
........
Having a mentor helps, but even that will not make one successful. You need to overcome YOUR limitations, not theirs. You need to make a strategy "YOURS" by relentlessly working with it until you become consistent with it, then continue growing and making small modifications until you reach what YOU want, not what someone else says is possible.
.........
Clay, many thanks for your insightful and inspirational posts! You've likewise given me a lot to think about...... there are a lot of perceived limitations swirling around in my head that I would be much better off without.

I've just re-read this entire thread....... some very thought-provoking stuff, well for me at least. Many thanks to everybody who's contributed!
  • #145
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  • Oct 8, 2009 10:14pm Oct 8, 2009 10:14pm
Hanover, it's always a pleasure to help someone "see" that things are not what they "seem" to be. In pretty much every area of life there are "standards" which are nothing more than some long dead person's old limits that the rest live by as though God Himself somehow decreed it that way.

I have fought against that all my life personally. I ended up in business (my first) by accident, and in-spite of a partner who literally stole every penny (didn't know I should keep an eye on even my partners back then), I was able to build a decently successful custom cabinet shop. Then another one with another partner who bought me out.

I have had lots of businesses, all of which were successful until someone or something out of my control caused some sort of major problem. That is why I chose to go with Forex this time around. No one will ever be able to steal my abilities or knowledge as I gain it. Hence, once gained I will ALWAYS be able to earn as much as I want to.

"I" will literally be the ONLY limit to my income.

There will always be markets to trade as long as there are people to trade them. No matter how they change, the same skills will always apply.

Oh, almost forgot to put this little "gem" in. I once took over a business from a sick friend. He started a great little carpet cleaning business with lots of commercial accounts. I once asked him how he started it. His answer was one of the two most insightful things I have ever heard about limitations.

He said, "I was too stupid to know I couldn't, so I bought a machine and started one." We should all be too stupid to know we "can't" and just go out and find a way to do it, what ever "it" is.

The second strongest impression was given to me by a man, making money from his hospital bed. I was introduced to him by a friend and he said, "The reason most people never become wealthy is that they are too busy earning a living to ever get rich."

I absolutely love to see people succeed and grow past old boundaries and limitations.

I was talking with Endroute earlier today about this concept. No one owes anyone here any "proof" of anything, but it would be wonderful to get about ten of those who "earn" a living from "small" accounts to post a year's "history" of their trading and shut the mouths of those who say it's "not realistic" or "can't be done."

I personally know one, a good friend of mine who has consistently made 2 to 3K per week for some time now with only a 10K account trading one standard lot. You do the math on that, but it's a HE** of a lot more than 2% to 3% per week or 50 to 100% per year, isn't it?

Last time I checked, that would come out to about 20% to 30% PER WEEK income. Not very "realistic" but real enough to pay off the bills and buy houses with! Oh, and this was during the most unpredictable, volatile, hectic, "messed" up market in the history of FOREX, as far as I know.

'Nuff said. Hanover, congratulations. You are making a huge step into becoming way above "average." After all, average is just the worst of the best and the BEST OF THE WORST. Emphasis on the last part.
  • #146
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  • Oct 9, 2009 1:35am Oct 9, 2009 1:35am
Quoting eclayf
I have just turned the corner on being more consistent, after about a year. During my research time, I studied lots of strategies (have read almost every thread on FF and several other sites) and one thing I have found true is what is in my "tag line" at the end below my post.
I really enjoyed reading your posts. It certainly sounds like you have put in the time and commitment to learn, and reaping the fruits from this. This should resonate with new traders, that the more time you spend exploring, investigating and purely just looking at the market and its behavior the more you will gain intrinsic understanding.

This includes trading (demo with discipline - hard I know, trading small accounts with discipline - hard too, but you will rejoice from learning the ropes and laying the right foundation)

This leads on to what hanover commented on regarding the use of certain MA's. I'm convinced that those who use MAs successfully have spent so much time with the instrument (not to mention "research" time to find it), that it becomes like a custom made suite, or perhaps more like a unique tool that you become a master tradesman of. Personally I use a 315 EMA and 36 EMA on all TFs, not as a strict entry signal but to add to my overall "mentality" of the market.

To take it a step further, it comes down to training the most powerful processor and system of all, the mind. Hence I sometimes like to refer to my manual trading as biological trading; it encompasses so much more than just mechanics, and that is what (successful) trading requires, biological or automated.

~

Quoting hanover
I've just re-read this entire thread....... some very thought-provoking stuff, well for me at least. Many thanks to everybody who's contributed.
There has been and is so much to reflect on, certainly thought provoking. Thank you for your contribution too, I have found your posts very insightful.

~

Quoting endroute
Hopefully give a little back for all that I have gotten from this forum
  • #147
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  • Edited 2:44am Oct 9, 2009 2:08am | Edited 2:44am
Quoting dreeamer
It certainly sounds like you have put in the time and commitment to learn, and reaping the fruits from this. This should resonate with new traders, that the more time you spend exploring, investigating and purely just looking at the market and its behavior the more you will gain intrinsic understanding.

This includes trading (demo with discipline - hard I know, trading small accounts with discipline - hard too, but you will rejoice from learning the ropes and laying the right foundation)

To take it a step further, it comes down to training...

Dreeamer, every business I have ever started or owned required two core elements. Sacrifice and tenacious, persistence. Money was always secondary to success.

What you talk of, "training the mind" was always the most difficult part. The mind can play tricks on one. Emotions such as discouragement, depression, "feeling" tired, fear and other such negative emotions are the tricks it plays on you. So are some of the more "positive" ones.

Ever heard of "manic depressive" disorder. Letting one's emotions run wild in EITHER direction is wrong and a problem to be dealt with harshly and early on in the effort. If someone else has done it, that establishes ONLY a baseline against which to improve. If YOU have done it, the same is true.

Find ways to stay motivated, to eliminate greed, fear, too much enthusiasm, too much excitement about the results. Too much of any emotion in trading is an issue to be dealt with. Trading REAL money in very, very small accounts is the BEST way to learn to deal with that.

Trust me, you can get just as excited over a balance of 18 cents that grows to 24 cents in a week as you can going from 1800.00 to 2400.00 in an account. (yes, there is a company where you can trade live with 18 cents, Oanda is it's name. I believe that possibly IBFX can do similar, not sure.)

If you don't believe that, ask Endroute, he heard me!

As for newbies just starting, DON'T GIVE UP, or to quote one of the most giftedly determined men of our time, "Never give up, never give up, never give up!" -Churchill- By the way, I think that was his whole speech that time!

More people fail because of discouragement than ever failed from "losing it all." Trust me there too, I have literally lost everything in life a few times. Colonel Sanders went bankrupt many times before he finally loaded up some chicken to sell by the roadside, then went on to establish what we know know as Kentucky Fried Chicken, or KFR for the younger crowd.

I believe it was Napoleon Hill who said that most men never achieve greatness until AFTER they turn 40. Grandma Moses LEARNED TO PAINT AFTER she was 75 or so and became famous around 80.

It's never too late, never, never, never, never, never, never ever give up! If everyone in the whole world says "it can't be done" or "you'll never get there" IGNORE THEM and keep on keeping on! YOU WILL GET THERE!

By the way, the BEST TWO books I ever read was "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill and "The Greatest Salesman In The World" by Og Mandino. Awesome books, great life lessons.

I like to say the crux of "Think and Grow Rich" this way. "If you can hold it in your mind, you can hold it in your hand!"

NEVER GIVE UP!


I think I'll add that to my tag line.
  • #148
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  • Oct 9, 2009 5:31am Oct 9, 2009 5:31am
There has been a lot of great discussion on this thread, I think it is starting to have its intended effect. Something else I want to throw out there about trading is a little about attitude .

For most people any kind of situation where you end up being "wrong" is very difficult to deal with thus we look for way to make us right. In trading this translates to more and more indicators on your screen and trying to get 9 different indicators to line up and tell you the same thing, blown accounts because you don't want to exit that loosing trade and be wrong so you keep holding on hoping that the trade will turn around. There are a whole host of other behaviors that result from not wanting to be wrong, but suffice it to say in trading you are going to be wrong from time to time or from trade to trade.

One of the things that help me was when I adopted the attitude "Some Will, Some Won't, So What" in terms of trading. That translates to some trades will work and some won't through no fault of my own as long as I am following my rules. Once you are able to place the same amount of emotion on a winning trade as you do on a loosing trade you are on your way to success.
  • #149
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  • Edited 7:26am Oct 9, 2009 7:26am | Edited 7:26am
Quoting triphop
Hanover, sometimes I read your posts and shake my head in disbelief, because there's not a lot to say afterwards...
Myths abound, the real question (another thread?) are what are the absolute truths in fx?
- Price can only go up/down/sideways
- You can't escape risk whichever way you play it, so you have two choices - accept that and control it, or let it control you
- Pareto's law applies to winners:losers, ergo you need to be doing something the majority aren't.

Can't think of anymore...
We came up with 6 or 7 awhile back, can't say that they did anyone any good.

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=40441

Right now I'm thinking, "If you don't make money following all the 'rules', then break the rules".

Sorry, didn't have time to read this whole thread.
  • #150
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  • Edited 3:38pm Oct 9, 2009 3:25pm | Edited 3:38pm
Quoting hanover
I guess it's human nature that folk (and I'm not targeting anybody in particular, most of us do it when we contemplate a career in trading) speculate how much money others are making, and how much it's possible to make themselves ("If I can make 2% per week, and compound it, then…"). On forums like this, there are traders who claim to effortlessly average 5% upward per month, and conversely, others who say that 20% return per year is outstanding, because that's what the hedge funds, who employ the top analysts, strive to...
id like to add tha one of the most respected members of this forum posted somewhare results of system that were something like this: 100% profit with less than 1,5% DD (period of 1 month where many trades were executed and with conditions that he consided good to test the system).

with a system like this one could open a free bonus account of 5 dolars, accept a DD of 30% and in the third month reduce the risk and trading for a living.
  • #151
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  • Oct 9, 2009 4:15pm Oct 9, 2009 4:15pm
Quoting eclayf
Dreeamer, every business I have ever started or owned required two core elements. Sacrifice and tenacious, persistence. Money was always secondary to success.
Well-said, this serves as a strong reminder yet again in our quest for success.

Treating trading as a business is the key to success, you need to have a plan, trade it, evaluate and make adjustments, and keep repeating it once you find the formula which gives consistent results.

Quoting eclayf
As for newbies just starting, DON'T GIVE UP, or to quote one of the most giftedly determined men of our time, "Never give up, never give up, never give up!" -Churchill- By the way, I think that was his whole speech that time!

More people fail because of discouragement than ever failed from "losing it all." Trust me there too, I have literally lost everything in life a few times. Colonel Sanders went bankrupt many times before he finally loaded up some chicken to sell by the roadside, then went on to establish what we know know as Kentucky...
  • #152
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  • Oct 11, 2009 4:28am Oct 11, 2009 4:28am
Quoting eclayf
In YOUR opinion % is best, but it tells you no more than pips do. It doens't tell you account size, risk used, or anything elst. If I am using huge risk, pips won't mean crap either.

The point of my post you totally missed. THE ONLY THING IMPOSSIBLE IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE IMPOSSIBLE!

We ALL, myself included have those limiting factors in our make up. That isn't the issue. The issue is why people seem hell bent on getting others to believe THEIR lies.

Those who go on to become successful learn to recoginze the lies in their psychology,...
simply hats offf...
  • #153
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  • Oct 11, 2009 10:34am Oct 11, 2009 10:34am
Quoting eclayf

The point of my post you totally missed. THE ONLY THING IMPOSSIBLE IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE IMPOSSIBLE!
I personally believe that it is not impossible for a woman to give birth to a 14 year old, 600 lb donkey.

Does that mean that it is actually possible?
  • #154
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  • Oct 11, 2009 10:36am Oct 11, 2009 10:36am
Quoting billbss
I personally believe that it is not impossible for a woman to give birth to a 14 year old, 600 lb donkey.

Does that mean that it is actually possible?
I want some of what you're smoking.
  • #155
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  • Oct 11, 2009 11:32am Oct 11, 2009 11:32am
Quoting billbss
I personally believe that it is not impossible for a woman to give birth to a 14 year old, 600 lb donkey.

Does that mean that it is actually possible?
Lay off the crack pipe
  • #156
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  • Oct 11, 2009 1:24pm Oct 11, 2009 1:24pm
Quoting billbss
I personally believe that it is not impossible for a woman to give birth to a 14 year old, 600 lb donkey.

Does that mean that it is actually possible?
Sure man, you just gotta get your psychology right!
The breaking of a wave cannot explain the whole sea.
  • #157
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  • Oct 11, 2009 5:35pm Oct 11, 2009 5:35pm
Does she have a tendency to give birth to older large-sized donkeys?
That would indicate a TREND.

TP = 14 year old, 600lb donkey

Stop Loss = ?? (still working on it)
  • #158
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  • Oct 11, 2009 5:41pm Oct 11, 2009 5:41pm
Quoting billbss
I personally believe that it is not impossible for a woman to give birth to a 14 year old, 600 lb donkey. Does that mean that it is actually possible?

Well,,, let me see. The field of genetics is advancing so fast that it is completely conceivable that one species could carry to term the fetus of another species. They are already using pigs and such to "grow parts" for other species. That's part of what the whole stem cell research debate is about.

Even cloning humans completely may soon be possible. So I would say that to make what you pose possible is advancing in the direction that might someday make something similar possible. I certainly believe that if left unchecked some insane nut-job of a scientist would try something like that.

The issue of poundage and length of term is a bit preposterous, but again, the fact that it hasn't been done, does NOT mean it will NEVER be done.

In all honesty though, you have gone way past the pale with your suggestion. We are talking of human accomplishments, not scientific witchery. Still, keep up with the drugs and you may "see" it someday.

Can men or women exist in outer space without space suits? I don't have an answer for that and no one else does either. Currently not, but Neanderthals would never have been able to build skyscrapers or fly airplanes at that point either.

You can in complete idiocy stretch this any way you want to to try to demean it, and you will still fail miserably in the attempt. Trying to take it to the extreme you did only demonstrates a personal lack of ability to comprehend, or a desire to destroy what other's are attempting to build.

It it was an attempt at humor, you failed there as well. Unfortunately on forums such as these humor, sarcasm and other nuances of communication often just don't make it through.

Can men fly? Without mechanical means? Possibly. There are many so called "gurus" in India which have been claimed to have that ability. Jesus is supposed to have "ascended" above the clouds.

In the field Quantum Physics they are making discoveries every day that test the extreme limits of what is "real" and what is not.

I think Lao Tsu is quoted as having said, "I had a dream that I was a butterfly, then I awoke wondering if I was a man who had a dream I was a butterfly or a butterfly who was having a dream that I was a man."

Alternate realities and dimensions are now being postulated that might possibly make such a ludicrous extreme possible, so who am I to answer "No!" definitively?

So, billbss, just how far do you want to stretch this ludicrosity?

The point remains that the ONLY thing that is completely, totally, irrevocably IMPOSSIBLE is what you believe to be impossible. THEN it is impossible for YOU, not for anyone else, simply because YOU will never attempt it.

This brings us to an interesting article I was reading today, ironically.

http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work...eer-leadership

And here is an interesting quote from it.

"Of the 274 self-made tycoons on the Forbes 400, 14% either never started or never completed college. The number of precocious college dropouts is highest among those who forged careers as technology entrepreneurs: Bill Gates of Microsoft (MSFT), Steve Jobs of Apple (AAPL), Michael Dell of Dell (DELL), Larry Ellison of Oracle (ORCL) and Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook."

Imagine that! I guess it's true, "those who can't TEACH IT, and those who can DO IT!"

It is rare that someone who is extremely good at something also be good at teaching how to do it.

During World War II, there was a severe need for good lenses for all sorts of uses, telescopes, periscopes, binoculars, etc. So they brought in a bunch of people to be trained to make lenses by a master at the craft. (no in those days they did not have the elaborate machinery of today to do it.)

The problem was that not one of the students could turn out a flawless lens even after months and months of attempting it. Then ONE student started turning out perfect lenses. Immediately they began to question the student about what he was doing that the other students weren't.

His answer was startling, it went something like this. "I don't know, I just started watching the master lens maker and noticed that he never used his wrist to turn the lens. He only flexes and turns from his elbow. So I started doing it that way."

THEREIN is the great lesson of all this. There are great traders, great students of those traders, and they are always improving things, creating better strategies, modifying and improving what they do, perfecting their craft. Then there are a few who can actually teach what they do that makes or made them successful enough to help others.

Then there are limitless numbers of people who do not know how to learn, cannot teach worth a crap, and sit around telling everyone else how it "can't" be done.

Trader discretion is the ONE thing that sets a masterful trader apart from all other traders. SOMETIMES they know what it is they are doing "instinctively" or "intuitively" sometimes they don't. IF they do, they can teach that part of trading to others who can then improve on it, make it "their own" and hopefully help others.

The dcsision as to which of these three groups you belong to is YOURS, no one else's and billbss, it "seems" you are not in the last two of these categories. But, the choice of whether or not you are, and whether or not you remain there is YOURS alone, not mine or anyone else's.

It's not even mine to judge which you are in. I'll just put you on ignore if this sort of stuff keeps up and you continue to bring so little to the conversation to improve it and help others.

May you trade wondrously, profitably and overcome every limitation in your life.

Clay
  • #159
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  • Oct 11, 2009 6:38pm Oct 11, 2009 6:38pm
Quoting eclayf
"Of the 274 self-made tycoons on the Forbes 400, 14% either never started or never completed college. The number of precocious college dropouts is highest among those who forged careers as technology entrepreneurs: Bill Gates of Microsoft (MSFT), Steve Jobs of Apple (AAPL), Michael Dell of Dell (DELL), Larry Ellison of...
The reverse ot that comment, of course, is that 86% of self-made tycoons started or completed college.
Academic education is not wasted if it instills logic and structure to your thinking. Whether the US education system actually does that is another topic.
  • #160
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  • Edited 9:25pm Oct 11, 2009 6:59pm | Edited 9:25pm
Hi forexmick,

Never said that academic education was wasted. BUT, I have seen more than a few extremely educated idiots in life.

The ONLY point I was making is that the ONLY limit is what one believes is the limit in THEIR life.

As for "logic" it's way over rated. Einstein was not using "logic" when he daydreamed about riding a beam of light and started working on his "Theory of Relativity." He was in FACT using the facility of imagination which specifically removes the need for "logic" to achieve that.

I mean, really, how "logical" is it for a person to think of riding a beam of light?

Logic has it's place in ASSISTING one to surpass limits, NOT in placing them. Einstein only used "logic" AFTER he "dreamed" or "day dreamed" of riding a beam of light.

THE SAME is true of any and all careers, including trading. Dream it FIRST, then use every tool you can find to achieve it!

Let's take that one to the extreme. Einstein's famous formula can actually be used to prove the second line in my tag line of "If you can hold it in your mind, you can hold it in your hand."

E=mc2 (won't allow superscripts, so be lenient with that) Energy is equal to mass times constancy squared. Thoughts are "energy," basically bio-chemical energy processes. So in essence, each thought is a tiny "essence" of something that is made up of mass.

You could play with this all day long too, but I'm tired of the game.

Your limits are YOURS, no one else's. The more you argue for them, the stronger they become. The more you challenge them, the less hold they have on you. There are no exceptions to this in life.

To say it the "old country boy" way. Can't never could.

Clay
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