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  • #641
  • Sep 26, 2009 1:56pm Sep 26, 2009 1:56pm
I've been seeing some interesting patterns in the DOM using both the limit order book and the order flow and matching them up with the theory found in the literature, and with what my traditional charts are saying. If you have a DOM display and are tracking order flow and are either using them to make trade decisions or are trying to learn how to use them to make trade decisions and would like to compare notes, please drop me a PM.
  • #642
  • Sep 26, 2009 1:58pm Sep 26, 2009 1:58pm
Quoting Scotty B
We've already brought up IFR Markets, is that what you are referring to? In all honesty, I really hope Darkstar and the others are not dependent on some service. What happens when this little man quits whispering secrets in your ears? Nothing good ever lasts, especially something like this, if it is infact what they rely on. Good traders have control of what they are doing, they are certainly not dependant on some service that could vanish tomorrow.

[b]I think that trading orderflow is a skill that starts with a thorough understanding of the...
I think that trading orderflow is a skill that starts with a thorough understanding of the market you trade in. Something that a person needs to develop. Thats why there are so few of these guys, nobodys interested in doing any homework.

For acquiring this skill, you have to believe in what George Douglas Taylor talked of as ever-lasting "Market Engineering" way back in 1945. You also have to believe that the Market Makers use GBPUSD as a pair to "manufacture" market sentiment in a matter of hours/days and this beast, which can move at a lightening speed of 300-450 pips in a day can change the market mood in a matter of 3-4 days. It provides good copy to media which hardly bothers to question its fundamentals for currency's such behaviour but takes delight in its rise and fall which happens almost every alternate week.

You also need to believe that NZD (cash-producing cow) can move up or down for months in a row with very few retracements.

You have to keep aside all your tools of TA and and instead focus on studying the market patterns for one full year. Study the market patterns (chart watching) and just do demo trading to acquire those skills. If you do live trades (unless they are not a drag on your savings) it will create pressure and you will lose focus.

After doing one year's focussed home work on opening hours, closing hours of each session, week, month, quarter, year, you will start making something out of the way huge pip balls are kicked up and down in a matter of seconds, and grounded in dreadful way for hours/days together that you can hardly make 5 pips during that period, pumping and dumping, buying and selling circular trades (same voodo technique the Governments are doing now - supplying money to the banks and buying back from them later - to perk up the economy) and many other age-old insider trading techniques of using Might is Right.

Go live after this hard work and who knows, you may end up being another Crabel and build an empire and sell a book of stock market patterns for $1000.

http://crabel.com/company/history.htm

Wish you - the hard worker - all the best.
  • #643
  • Edited 2:21pm Sep 26, 2009 2:08pm | Edited 2:21pm
Orderflow trading in a nutshell:

1)Find the stops and fade them.

2)Find the barrier options and push into them.

3)Find pockets with a lack of open interest and gap them.

4)Find a sequence of stops spaced 10-25 pips apart and prepare to put your kids through college.

What you need? A prime broker currenex/ebs account, IFR, Oanda open interest, some friends on the inside of a large bank or brokerage, a proper understanding of risk management, and most importantly; your psychological issues completely resolved.

Its not an EA type of system. Even having the above, your still going to fail until you have developed a keen sense of the market. Intuition plays a huge part so if your stuck in the mathematical world of EA's and if-then-else logic, don't waste your time. Trading is an art, not a science.

Why am I telling you this? I really don't know, but I won't be giving you any more. Ever.

Do with it what you will.

PS - Please stop sending me PM's asking about training or mentorship or begging for clues. If you can't figure it out with what has already been said, it would be a waste of my time to train you. Thanks.
  • #644
  • Sep 26, 2009 2:17pm Sep 26, 2009 2:17pm
Quoting Darkstar
PS - Please stop sending me PM's asking about training or mentorship or begging for clues. If you can't figure it out with what has already been said, it would be a waste of my time to train you. Thanks.
u can always block PM's from the ones not in ur buddy list.
  • #645
  • Sep 26, 2009 2:20pm Sep 26, 2009 2:20pm
....all the info that I needed...Darkstar, you are the man!!!
forexflash
  • #646
  • Sep 26, 2009 2:23pm Sep 26, 2009 2:23pm
Quoting Darkstar
Orderflow trading in a nutshell:

1)Find the stops and fade them.

2)Find the barrier options and push into them.

3)Find pockets with a lack of open interest and gap them.

4)Find a sequence of stops spaced 10-25 pips apart and prepare to put your kids through college.

[color=black][font=Verdana]What you need? A prime broker currenex/ebs...

This is appreciated, Thank you.
Don't wish it were easier, wish you were better. ~ Jim Rohn
  • #647
  • Sep 26, 2009 2:51pm Sep 26, 2009 2:51pm
Quoting LasVahGoose
This is appreciated, Thank you.
Yes. Thanks from all of us here, DS!

Good trading to you (and to us)!
  • #648
  • Sep 26, 2009 3:23pm Sep 26, 2009 3:23pm
Quoting Darkstar
Orderflow trading in a nutshell:

1)Find the stops and fade them.

2)Find the barrier options and push into them.

3)Find pockets with a lack of open interest and gap them.

4)Find a sequence of stops spaced 10-25 pips apart and prepare to put your kids through college.

[color=black][font=Verdana]What you need? A prime broker...
Hey Darkstar,

Thanks for the insights. Are you serious about the Oanda open interest? It surprises me you find valuable information in something like that. Also, when you speak of gapping areas of weak open interest, are you talking about areas in the book of low liquidity? Or are you talking about pushing the market over open orders i.e. people with established positions, thus pushing them into drawdown? The only reason it's not clear to me is because I've heard people use the term open interest when refering to both of those things. And lastly, are you speaking in the first person? I know thats a silly question for sure, but are you saying that you Darkstar have the ability to carry out the things you mention, or are those things that bigger market participants do and you 'follow along,' because you know whats up? I'm just curious because in one of the research papers I've read recently, they say that the average trade size on the interbank is 50 million. Who knows, maybe you have that kind of cash to work with and you can move the market a pip or two, but I am just assuming you get word from your buddies at a bank who are doing this and you partake in the action yourself. I hope you are at least buying these guys drinks for them Also, I hope not to many brokers hate you for using them as your personal ATM.

Thanks,

Scotty
  • #649
  • Sep 26, 2009 3:26pm Sep 26, 2009 3:26pm
My apologies, Darkstar, for bringing you in here but the info is priceless.

Go in peace.
  • #650
  • Sep 26, 2009 3:33pm Sep 26, 2009 3:33pm
Quoting Darkstar
Orderflow trading in a nutshell:
Help! I'm in a nutshell

ps DS is a very nice guy
Attached Image
  • #651
  • Sep 26, 2009 3:35pm Sep 26, 2009 3:35pm
Quoting Scotty B
Hey Darkstar,

Thanks for the insights. Are you serious about the Oanda open interest? It surprises me you find valuable information in something like that. Also, when you speak of gapping areas of weak open interest, are you talking about areas in the book of low liquidity? Or are you talking about pushing the market over open orders i.e. people with established positions, thus pushing them into drawdown? The only reason it's not clear to me is because I've heard people use the term open interest when refering to both of those things. And lastly,...
Sorry man, I guess it wouldn't matter if the orders you gap were open or sitting limits..Once you steam rolled them they'd be open and losing anyways. So disregard that question.
  • #652
  • Sep 26, 2009 4:00pm Sep 26, 2009 4:00pm
Quoting Darkstar
Orderflow trading in a nutshell:

1)Find the stops and fade them.

2)Find the barrier options and push into them.

3)Find pockets with a lack of open interest and gap them.

4)Find a sequence of stops spaced 10-25 pips apart and prepare to put your kids through college.
Quoting Darkstar
What you need? A prime broker currenex/ebs account, IFR, Oanda open interest, some friends on the inside of a large bank or brokerage, a proper understanding of risk management, and most importantly; your psychological issues completely resolved.


OMG, I think I've just crossed over into the twilight zone or something!

I am outta here while there's still a way back........sheeesh!
  • #653
  • Sep 27, 2009 12:17am Sep 27, 2009 12:17am
The ironic thing about this thread is that probably less than .001 percent of all who read it will make it to the final goal. Even with Darkstar's insights, steering us in a focused direction, it's not an end but a mean. Who do you think will actually develop a friendship with someone at a bank? <-not laughing at the idea, just the sheer thought of it, and facebook friends don't count guys!

Also, common sense tells me that Darkstar has every reason in the world to mislead. I'm not accusing him of that, but that would be his best response to the sudden public interest in this topic here at FF.

Harris in his book talks about something he calls "orthogonal estimates," the idea being that traders who use unique valuation estimates that give them a true niche in the profitable trading catagory-are the most profitable traders. The more orthogonal your proven approach to trading, the more profitable you will be. The more people that catch on to any successful stratagey, the less orthogonal it becomes and therefore less profitable. So keeping that in mind, Darkstar's either misleading (his best response [since trading is a zero sum game]) or he's just really generous and doesn't mind the thought of sharing his income with the people who ussually supply it. I give Darkstar more credit though. He would not be profitable is he was not a sharp, shrewd dude. So I'll take the points you gave Darkstar and flesh them out, but with a few grains of salt.

Good luck everybody,

Scotty B
  • #654
  • Sep 27, 2009 1:41am Sep 27, 2009 1:41am
Quoting skfx
Hanover,to be honest bud,there was a thread you were involved in that really set my upstairs room into overdrive lol(don't know the thread) and it was only a sentence or two that got me going,so i will have to give you some credit.
Glad that I helped you somehow, Steve, but I haven't a clue how, LOL. The vast majority of the info in this thread goes right over my head. Thank goodness for TA!
  • #655
  • Sep 27, 2009 2:18am Sep 27, 2009 2:18am
Quoting Scotty B
So I'll take the points you gave Darkstar and flesh them out, but with a few grains of salt.
Quoting Darkstar
So to make a long explanation short, if the system you’re trading actually has an edge, sharing it will be detrimental for you. If it doesn’t have an edge, share away because it may actually improve it.

Ohh, and if you do manage to find a real market inefficiency, do yourself and those who are already trading it the courtesy of keeping your mouth shut about it. The shiny red Ferrari it will buy you will boost your ego for much longer then the complements of your trading peers.
With a grain of salt...
  • #656
  • Sep 27, 2009 3:40am Sep 27, 2009 3:40am
Quoting MartinFx
With a grain of salt...



Just lots of laughter here..Thats all
  • #657
  • Sep 27, 2009 4:47am Sep 27, 2009 4:47am
I use this http://www.mediabistro.com/unbeige/o...r%20camera.jpg
If I know how, I tell You!! Few but Good!!
  • #658
  • Sep 27, 2009 5:09am Sep 27, 2009 5:09am
Quoting pipmutt
The link was an expired session but thanks anyway.....
sorry, i didnt know every 'standard' link i post turns into an expired session.
anyway, here it is:
http://kb.esignalcentral.com/article.asp?article=3108&p=1
(it is in "Support", inside the "Knowledge Base")
scroll to the middle/bottom part

that is all i know, unfortunately.
  • #659
  • Edited 7:51am Sep 27, 2009 6:47am | Edited 7:51am
threads gone ballistic....shoot i have some back reading to do.
i have been in real estate mode so apologies for my lack of being here in this thread,it does seem though you guys have made well.
I do apologise for not answering anyone's questions directly.

Quote
common sense tells me that Darkstar has every reason in the world to mislead.
Quote
Darkstar's either misleading (his best response [since trading is a zero sum game]) or he's just really generous and doesn't mind the thought of sharing his income with the people who ussually supply it.
I had to jump in here.
Scotty,no way is dark misleading.i pretty much shoot from the same pistol.
The 4 points dark has given you guys is BIG.
When you follow point #1,you are now playing like a dealer.When you place stop orders in the wrong places the dealers will gun for them.
They do this because they need to clear inventory.They also do not want to get on the wrong side of real money demand.They do occasionally get caught in one way markets but they will always fight to clear their books.
Who do you think sells you the gbpusd when you and every other retail trader and his dog wants to buy it?The dealer provides you with liquidity but what 90% of retail traders don't realise is that although he gives you this service it will also be your death.
Imagine playing a game of poker where you play against someone who can see all hands and doesn't show theirs.This is what's going on in the world of fx.The foreign currency market was never designed for retail trade,it's a professionals market.

Just to back up Darks #2 point.Just this week there was a 'one touch' option play on the usdjpy(love this pair) at 90.00 which i think was expiring Monday.If you knew this then you would know these guys would drive the usdjpy lower to get the 'one touch' and payout.You could also come to the conclusion that if they did gun for the 90.00 then they would have likely dried up much of the limit buys resting there,weakening that level and you pretty much could have bet the house that the usdjpy was not going to hold 90 heading into the weekend.And looky what happened.....
Dark spins no bull@#*!.

When you get good at this you can place trades and the market barely moves against you.I agree with Dark,it takes time and knowledge(operators and orders they place).With time comes intuition,you get a feel for things.He has given you most of the tools you need.

@Hanover.
Dave,you made mention of order types.Basically,instead of thinking in terms of price i took it one step further to what drives price.I then came to the conclusion that if i could nut out what was going on with regards orderflow then i would be golden.And golden i am.

It's all about ORDERS.Use quality sources to anticipate orderflow,look ahead of price,don't get stuck with it.
  • #660
  • Sep 27, 2009 6:56am Sep 27, 2009 6:56am
Quoting Scotty B
The ironic thing about this thread is that probably less than .001 percent of all who read it will make it to the final goal. Even with Darkstar's insights, steering us in a focused direction, it's not an end but a mean. Who do you think will actually develop a friendship with someone at a bank? <-not laughing at the idea, just the sheer thought of it, and facebook friends don't count guys!

Also, common sense tells me that Darkstar has every reason in the world to mislead. I'm not accusing him of that, but that...

he pretty much has and it would be wise of him! that's a thing most of the people do not get when they start to begin sharing their system which might have worked for them over a while and they are so happy to scream it out and share it with everbody, even tough most of the lurkers here do not deserve it. too much attention is always the begin of the failure of systems and this is for a reason.

the hell would darkstar begin to explain the ways of tracking his mentioned points, if he did, he'd be a muppet which he in fact is NOT! he told the most which he should have told without risking too much attention, nothing more about that. let them continue believing in their indicator systems with potential 20% roi yearly.
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