Is "systems-sharing" really a good thing? | Page 2 | Forex Factory

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Is "systems-sharing" really a good thing?

  • #21
  • Aug 24, 2009 10:38pm Aug 24, 2009 10:38pm
Quoting Bemac
...I... Don't believe your doubts and don't doubt your beliefs
Chicky Rockerfeller... Hmmm...

but that was funny...
Who Rockerfeller? I am never going to mortgage my headquaters ever.

If you want to compare me, compare me with some one of my level e.g. Bernie Madoff, Ponzi, ......., etc.
The Thief of Wall Street
  • #22
  • Edited 10:56pm Aug 24, 2009 10:44pm | Edited 10:56pm
Quoting Pharoah
I'm seeing your point now more clearly.

I personally have complete faith in myself, and the system that I have devised, will my system win 100% of the time? no, but it's R/R is 1/8+ so I can afford to take 7 losses before I break even from 1 gain (I never have 7 losses in a row).

Alot of people tend to confuse win/loose ratio with R/R, sure a system may win 95% of the time, but, are those winner large enough to make up for those 5 major loosers?.

Alot of people don't understand 1 trade can kill 100 trades worth of profit.
Many, if not most, systems work. But do we give them a fair chance? Any system that is theoretically correct, only needs proper money mangement to become a reality. Challange me on that, anyone.
The Thief of Wall Street
  • #23
  • Aug 24, 2009 10:44pm Aug 24, 2009 10:44pm
Quoting Chicky
Who Rockerfeller? I am never going to mortgage my headquaters ever.

If you want to compare me, compare me with some one of my level e.g. Bernie Madoff, Ponzi, ......., etc.
I'd put Bernie in the 25-30% of Trading & hopefully, no more.
  • #24
  • Aug 24, 2009 10:51pm Aug 24, 2009 10:51pm
Quoting Bemac
I'd put Bernie in the 25-30% of Trading & hopefully, no more.
That would be very generous. He would have been my greatest "investment property", only if I knew him before he was busted
The Thief of Wall Street
  • #25
  • Aug 24, 2009 11:07pm Aug 24, 2009 11:07pm
Quoting Chicky
Many, if not most, systems work. But do we give them a fair chance? Any system that is theoretically correct, only needs proper money mangement to become a reality. Challange me on that, anyone.

I don't think I could agree with you more, I made a similar post in a newbie thread about pips required to hit X dollars.
  • #26
  • Aug 24, 2009 11:18pm Aug 24, 2009 11:18pm
Quoting Pharoah
I don't think I could agree with you more, I made a similar post in a newbie thread about pips required to hit X dollars.
Pharoah, with my limited knowlege of forex trading I would say that a system counts, but it is the trader behind a "workable" system that makes it work. If one wants to share a system, should also share the thought behind it, the nature of edge in the system, how this edge works and in which situations, associated risks, system specific money mangement requirements and calculations, scenario of total loss, probable outcome out of x number of trades, and psychology required to implement that system.

The pitty is that one can share knowledge and impart training, but wisdom comes by itself and in due course of time. This is where many fail.
The Thief of Wall Street
  • #27
  • Aug 24, 2009 11:38pm Aug 24, 2009 11:38pm
Quoting Chicky
Pharoah, with my limited knowlege of forex trading I would say that a system counts, but it is the trader behind a "workable" system that makes it work. If one wants to share a system, should also share the thought behind it, the nature of edge in the system, how this edge works and in which situations, associated risks, system specific money mangement requirements and calculations, scenario of total loss, probable outcome out of x number of trades, and psychology required to implement that system....
These are the exact reasons a system will fail for someone, truer words have never been spoken. My Knowledge of forex is very limited as well, I'm fresh out of "forex school" if you would. I find the concept of money management very simple, and am the type to play out every scenario in my head (it's insane what goes on in my head sometimes), and I find it honestly refreshing to see what others have come up with. if I can assist in any way to halp them in their development, I'm gonna do it, because I do know that I am one of the few that can naturally wrap their head around it.

I've been live trading for about 2 weeks, and have been demo trading for about 3 months before that while researching both forex fundamentals and learning some of the tricks of the trade from a large variety of sources before finally landing here. I've learned alot from this community over the last month, even before I joined as a member. The main reason I joined and started being active in the community is because I felt that I got so much out of it, that if someone could get something from my knowledge then great.

But it's unfortunately true, alot of people allow emotion to be a factor in their trading technique which is ultimately kills an account. My first few live trades earned me $976, 1 trade after that, I read something wrong and I lost $904 of it. My emotions played the better of me and I folded. I didn't stick to my game plan, neither on the entry side, nor the exit side. after I closed the trade, the price returned, and skyrocketed past my original buy point, since then, when I sit at my maching to trade, I shut my emotions off all together. The point of my experience is this.

Greed will make you enter something too quickly.

Fear will make you exit something to soon.

Know yourself, know your limits, and follow the rules of a publicly successful system that you can understand.

I hope someone else can learn from this.
  • #28
  • Aug 25, 2009 1:07am Aug 25, 2009 1:07am
Quoting Pharoah
These are the exact reasons a system will fail for someone............

Greed will make you enter something too quickly.

Fear will make you exit something to soon.

Know yourself, know your limits, and follow the rules of a publicly successful system that you can understand.

I hope someone else can learn from this.
You said it all in these three lines. Fourth one is just a hope, but let's try maybe someone opts to benefit from it.
The Thief of Wall Street
  • #29
  • Aug 25, 2009 3:12pm Aug 25, 2009 3:12pm
I’m with you if you are talking about mechanical systems, you buy/sell when that indicator and this indicator does that. They don’t work, at least I don’t know any, if so you could easily code an EA and do other things instead babysitting your screens, the rob would do the job.

If we are talking about discretional systems, systems that need more than an indicator to decide what will be the trading direction and till where PA might go I would say it’s not wasting time at all if you show your thread followers HOW TO TRIGGER THEM.

For example in the THV thread we have always two charts open, the THV and a 15M analyze chart with candlesticks, weekly, monthly pivots, daily Fibonacci Pivots, historical HLs - TLs and a RSI.

We showed how to trigger possible turn points in higher TF’s like 4H or Daily drawing historical HL and TL including the bigger picture in the trading plan..
We showed how to use other techniques like Pitchforks, Gartleys, DBB’s etc. Many times we couldn’t go too deep in but gave a link to J16 for studying more about PA, for example.

Once we trigger the possible turn points we look for a good entry in smaller timeframes with the THV chart which is designed for safer entries (you can’t catch the falling knife if you follow the rules), low SL and with that better R/R relation.

We showed which are the best trading sessions/hours for the pairs our Team and followers trade and what is called a good MM using SL or not.

We gave a base which is the Analyze chart and the THV V3 chart but many folks added or changed something to make it THEIR system, also some follow the original 1M – 5M method, others love to trade 15M and 1H.

We talked about in what condition a trader needs to be to open his trading room and when better not to trade (for example a losing strike).

So, if the package is complete it could be called a trading school or seminar instead of system thread.

Now, Traders which share a system can have several motivations, one is what we observe very frequently, the thread starter shows astronomic results, some charts and than get over to say: You want more? Here is my Paypal account.

Call me crazy but my motivation was to fine tune the system with a group of trading friends, here THV Team, helping newbees, learning from others and interchanging trading charts and that’s what happened.

My mission is completed (what was needed to say is said) and I don’t post very frequently as I need to attend my social life and other biz I manage but the objective was successful completed and we have many THV traders that can say that they are out of the 95% category.

I don’t second that someone who shares a system needs to be a trading fool and don’t know what he/she does, just see my last two calls (Lady thread and EUR/USD) and there are many more in the THV and ICCE (not after fact, and I never delete a call) but I reserve the right to be wrong sometimes as well.
Those calls are day trade calls but my passion is scalping and it’s some kind of hard to post a call in real-time, lol.

There are many other traders which share systems and are good traders, sharing sometimes real time calls, the list is too long to name them but let me name Bemac as he’s one of my favorite traders.


Quoting tunera
Now, looking over the box, why it's a "waste of time"?

Because:

This let us know that the system-sharing phenomenon is used only between that other 95% of traders, who don't know how to trade profitably.
  • #30
  • Aug 25, 2009 5:07pm Aug 25, 2009 5:07pm
Quoting cobraforex
I’m with you if you are talking about mechanical systems, you buy/sell when that indicator and this indicator does that. They don’t work, at least I don’t know any, if so you could easily code an EA and do other things instead babysitting your screens, the rob would do the job....
Great post, please excuseme if i've offended you, it was surely not my purpose.
The point was not like "who share system is not a good trader", i writed something like that but it was in another context, my was an "average" espression, like to say that in average shared systems are loosers.

Of course when there is not a fixed "buy and sell signal", but when we talk about different methods and analyses like Pitchforks, Gartleys, DBB’s, Fibonacci, Trendlines, without any defined fixed "system" behind them, we are talking about information and about how to get approach to the market in different ways, this is absolutely not a time-wasting, and it's very important to share informations, patterns and theories about how the market work.

Unfortunately i see that many traders concentrate more on find a magic set of indicators that give superbuy and supersell signals, instead of observe the market and try to understand why price move like it move, why every trend stop at a certain point and change the direction, i have never see a new trader asking how the market work and why price must break a previous support before continue his uptrend (stop hunting ahah) (joking), they simply want an indicator that tell them that price is going up, or down (and they finish to sell at a support just before a huge up-move come).

Market is not random and it's not a magic-entity, it's just a game with precise rules that nobody is interested to know.
  • #31
  • Aug 25, 2009 5:17pm Aug 25, 2009 5:17pm
No, don't worry, I'm not offended (or should I? ).

Trading is much more than just a chart, it's "feeling" the market and trying to find out what market makers are trying to do.

The system is a tool and needs to be used in adecuate way.

I enjoyed a lot to lead the THV thread and wan a lot of "internet friends". some of them I'd like to visit personally in the future when old Cobra will be retired (if they are "still there"), it'll surely be worth the efforts.

Quoting tunera
Great post, please excuseme if i've offended you, it was surely not my purpose.
  • #32
  • Aug 26, 2009 4:21am Aug 26, 2009 4:21am
cobraforex,
For sure, i'll visit u in the future, if u will allow me too.
  • #33
  • Aug 30, 2009 3:11am Aug 30, 2009 3:11am
4 things to know about market...Identify them...nothing more, nothing less...
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: market1.GIF Size: 9 KB
  • #34
  • Last Post: Aug 30, 2009 10:32am Aug 30, 2009 10:32am
Quoting Pharoah
this is true, but the fact remains, we at this point no longer can say it's 95% will come and go, 5% will come and stay as a certainty.
Personally I think the 95/5 argument is goofy and started something like this:

Ten or twenty years ago somebody wrote an article about something or other saying "probably 95% of daytraders fail or will fail" based on what statistics is anybodies guess. Then two potential traders were sitting around discussing their futures and one said to the other, "Hey did you hear, 95% of daytraders fail" and so the legend was born.

Now today, I'm sure this conversation takes place regularly:

"Hey honey, since you've mortgaged the house how's the trading going?"
"To be quite honest, not so hot, BUT then you have to realize that 95% OF ALL DAYTRADERS FAIL, so we can't expect great results or miracles overnight, it's difficult."

And now it's used as justification for when thing are not going well.

Anyway that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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