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C4 Scalping

  • #6,381
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:13pm Aug 12, 2009 5:13pm
Quoting DocPMD
I'm not sure that I understand your point here. But it really doesn't matter. Either the system can be traded mechanically or it can't.

The only one qualified to answer that question is the one who has traded it for a long time, and since this thread only has a lifetime of a month, that can only be Edge.

So what is the answer? I don't know. I'm waiting.
Hi DocPMD:

If there are rules then it can be traded mechanically. Make sure you tell it when to stop trading.
If you only trade long, then you can't always be wrong.
  • #6,382
  • Edited 5:30pm Aug 12, 2009 5:18pm | Edited 5:30pm
Quoting fxspeedster
Instead of posting screenshots with easy winners, please post some screenshots with losers and your stated opinion as to what you would have done differently to avoid the loss or losses - or ask the C4 experts for that matter. Winners take care of themselves.. if you are winning that's great but you are not alone and so are most members here that have a handle of the concept. We learn from mistakes mostly so I recommend we put this concept to work here too.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: frankenpipchart.gif Size: 19 KB


Hi fxspeedster:

I do not know if you read my C4 thread or not but someone asked me the same question.

There is nothing you can do to avoid the losses. Internalize that before continuing. A loss is only a mistake when it exceeds the alloted risk.

What you can do is minimize the losses.

I posted my entry/exit rules a few posts ago. Look at the chart above and you tell me how many winners and losers. If I tell you now, it will not help you at all. We have to see if you can follow the entry criteria. I will post the answer in my C4 thread HERE (http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost.php?p=2950805&postcount=319)
If you only trade long, then you can't always be wrong.
  • #6,383
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:19pm Aug 12, 2009 5:19pm
Quoting 4xtrader2
If you haven't read "Trading in the Zone" by Mark Douglas, you will only partially understand Edge's "25% Mechanical, 75% Mental" quote.

The focus of taking 20 or 100 trade signals is a conditioning exercise laid out in the book to help people begin the process of becoming "Consistently Successful Traders"....
Whether you choose to buy it, get it at your local library or find it on the Internet for free, read this book!
Old Benjamin was right
  • #6,384
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:25pm Aug 12, 2009 5:25pm
Quoting FrankenPip
Hi DocPMD:

If there are rules then it can be traded mechanically. Make sure you tell it when to stop trading.
I agree.

From the first page of the thread at the end of the C4 section:

"How you choose to trade is personal decision YOU have to make. It is up to you to decide when to 'hit the ignitor' and enter a trade. This is not 100% mechanical and there is a discretionary aspect to consider. You will have to 'think real hard about this'."

The description of C4 is very precise (except for the choice of S/L), lending itself to mechanical trading. But then there is this statement. What does it mean? I don't know.

I am confused, I admit. I think it means you don't take every signal. You think you can take every signal until your daily target for win or loss is hit.

I don't know the answer, but it is at the heart of the potential for profits.

Doc
  • #6,385
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:30pm Aug 12, 2009 5:30pm
Quoting FrankenPip
Attachment

Hi fxspeedster:

I do not know if you read my C4 thread or not but someone asked me the same question.

There is nothing you can do to avoid the losses....
Without the SMTrix and Momentum is really hard to tell, at least for me. Traders that post by-the-rule winners think of it this way. You go to see a funny movie and there is a funny part and the person next to you on both side are laughing with you. As a matter of fact, most of the audience is laughing.. its the same thing here.. follow the rules and you will be laughing too. My reasoning for posting losers is that someone might have entered too early or they did not wait for all rules to align, or the chart repainted (renko) and a ghost signal was traded etc. All these situations and many more make for very good learning gems, that most will avoid by them being pointed out.
If it backtests good run it live!
  • #6,386
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:36pm Aug 12, 2009 5:36pm
Quoting FrankenPip
Hi 4xtrader2:

Do not let the rat beat you:

...

P64 HOW WE DECIDE
You have that right. Some of us have a harder path to walk though because we haven't been very disciplined in our lives or we have misconceptions which have to be changed. But...I am definitely on the path with my eyes on the goal. It's good to have others on the same journey to share the experience.
4XTrader2
  • #6,387
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:40pm Aug 12, 2009 5:40pm
Quoting 4xtrader2
You have that right. Some of us have a harder path to walk though because we haven't been very disciplined in our lives or we have misconceptions which have to be changed. But...I am definitely on the path with my eyes on the goal. It's good to have others on the same journey to share the experience.
You know, I love that you said this. It's so important to take a step back, especially after a few pages of heated debate, to acknowledge that we should all be here for the same reason.

Getting the answers or clarification on some of these issues is all that we are after.

I can at least say for myself that I am not here just for the fun of the debate. I want to learn. I hope you all realize that.

Doc
  • #6,388
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:43pm Aug 12, 2009 5:43pm
Quoting DocPMD
I agree.

From the first page of the thread at the end of the C4 section:

[color=black]"How you choose to trade is personal decision YOU have to make. It is up to you to decide when to 'hit the ignitor' and enter a trade. This is not 100% mechanical and there is a discretionary aspect to consider. You will have to 'think real hard about this'."

The description of C4 is very precise (except for the choice of S/L), lending itself to mechanical trading....
Hi DocPMD:

Did someone mention price action? How a pair moves and to what extent is price action.

If you know eurjpy moves over 30 pips per hour on average and it has gone up 40 pips, and you get a C4 long entry signal, would you enter the trade? This is where discretion comes in.

If price making a new low for the week or month, and you are getting a C4 short entry signal, would you enter the trade? This is where discretion comes in.

Does that help at all?

Of course, you can have overall trading rules that override any system or method that you use.
If you only trade long, then you can't always be wrong.
  • #6,389
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:45pm Aug 12, 2009 5:45pm
Quoting fxspeedster
Without the SMTrix and Momentum is really hard to tell, at least for me. Traders that post by-the-rule winners think of it this way....
Hi fxspeedster:

Please pardon me for being blunt but you didn't follow MY RULES. It wasn't a trick question. My rules and charts do not mention SMTrix and Momentum. You may have a "do over".
If you only trade long, then you can't always be wrong.
  • #6,390
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:45pm Aug 12, 2009 5:45pm
Quoting FrankenPip
Attachment

Hi fxspeedster:

I do not know if you read my C4 thread or not but someone asked me the same question.

There is nothing you can do to avoid the losses. Internalize that before continuing. A loss is only a mistake when it exceeds the alloted risk.

What you can do is minimize the losses.

I posted my entry/exit rules a few posts ago. Look at the chart above and you tell me how many winners and losers. If I tell you now, it will not help you at all. We have to see if you can follow the entry criteria. I...
Hi Frankenpip
Please explain the chart in your link. Your rule no 3 states - enter if the candle is less than 10 pips . It would appear that trade 1 the loser was >10. No 2 possibly, no4 and no5. Could you clear up these entries please as maybe I don't get it. I assume you refer to the first candle.
Thanks
Andy
  • #6,391
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:49pm Aug 12, 2009 5:49pm
Quoting mary4x
DOCPMD and 4XStar:

We hear a lot about studying price action, but I, for one, do not know what I'm supposed to be "studying." The price goes up, down or sideways. Please elaborate. Thanks.
You're right! There are only 3 directions it can go ... and yet we put 5000 indicators on a chart to help us decide which of the 3 it will choose next...

To be successful a trader has to develop a 'feel' for price action irrespective of any indicators (except maybe candlesticks if you call them an indicator). Just look at a naked 5 min chart during a period of high activity in the market. See if just by looking at what has already happened and what 'seems' to be happening in realtime if you can predict what will happen next. You are watching naked price action .. check also the C4 Scalping for Poor Traders thread for the analogy there of trains leaving a station .. helps to get a visual of PA.

So despite any indicators you may add to a chart .. or until we find the truly 'magic' one .. what it comes down to is watching price itself and gradually learning how to 'predict' where it might go next with some degree of probability. Knowing patterns help, knowing s/r and fib levels help .. but in the end it just comes down to studying hundreds of charts, and maybe taking hundreds of trades, many of which will be losers, to grow the skill needed to trade off PA alone. When you can do that, you are a trader.

PS .. also check out a line price on the chart .. look how it makes W's at the bottom of trends and M's at the top .. and the occasional Batman formation as well. There are people I know who only trade those signals, nothing else .. it is all PA.
******************* I'd rather make money than be right.
  • #6,392
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:49pm Aug 12, 2009 5:49pm
Quoting 4xtrader2
You have that right. Some of us have a harder path to walk though because we haven't been very disciplined in our lives or we have misconceptions which have to be changed. But...I am definitely on the path with my eyes on the goal. It's good to have others on the same journey to share the experience.
Hi 4xtrader2:

You choose your path. The rat chooses a path. This has nothing at all to do with discipline. Most of your trading training has been comprised of "misconceptions". I say that not to be rude or condescending. It is as though people are teaching "the world is flat". When someone comes along and shows the world is not flat, they are tar and feathered.
If you only trade long, then you can't always be wrong.
  • #6,393
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:50pm Aug 12, 2009 5:50pm
Quoting FrankenPip
Hi DocPMD:

Did someone mention price action?...
Now that is what I was looking for! And I am not being sarcastic!

All this time I had been assuming that there were aspects of PA that should influence the decision to take a signal or not. And actually, I had been trying to do that and it did help me to avoid some losers.

But I guess that is a mistake. I should take all of the signals. Except for those that violate other principles having nothing to do with PA (i.e. S/R, daily ranges, etc.)

That makes perfect sense. You just gave me an Aha moment. If that is what Edge is talking about, I now understand completely.

Thanks, seriously!

Doc
  • #6,394
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:51pm Aug 12, 2009 5:51pm
Quoting andypips
Hi Frankenpip
Please explain the chart in your link. Your rule no 3 states - enter if the candle is less than 10 pips . It would appear that trade 1 the loser was >10. No 2 possibly, no4 and no5. Could you clear up these entries please as maybe I don't get it. I assume you refer to the first candle.
Thanks
Andy
Hi Andy:

Please ask me in my thread. This is Edgetrader's thread and I may be bordering on wearing out my welcome.
If you only trade long, then you can't always be wrong.
  • #6,395
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:51pm Aug 12, 2009 5:51pm
Quoting DocPMD
I have read his book, more than once. I have also read his other book, "The Disciplined Trader". So I do understand the mental aspects of trading as outlined by Mr. Douglas.

But there is clearly confusion here. Some regard C4 as a purely mechanical system - take all signals. Others, such as myself, have learned that there is more to it than that.

Now if I am wrong, I would be thrilled. It is a lot easier (although not easy , i.e. Trading in the Zone) to trade mechanically. I just don't think C4 can be traded that way.

Edge, please clarify....
I am starting on the Disciplined Trader as well. I think that C4 was designed for those of us to use as a trading strategy that complies with the goals laid out in Chapter 11 of Trading in the Zone. I think it is designed to help us develop consistency (for those of us who don't have it yet).

I think that the area of probability will be covered more when Edge feels he has an audience that is mentally ready and receptive to the next steps. This seems to be the natural progression. I may be wrong though.

Renko Charts exhibit some natural characteristics that point to improved probability if the Nitro preview is any indicator.

"A journey begins with the first step".
4XTrader2
  • #6,396
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:55pm Aug 12, 2009 5:55pm
Quoting mary4x
DOCPMD and 4XStar:

We hear a lot about studying price action, but I, for one, do not know what I'm supposed to be "studying." The price goes up, down or sideways. Please elaborate. Thanks.
Hi mary4x:

Let's clarify: Price moves up or down. Otherwise, it is not moving.

Study how price moves during certain times, how far it moves before retracing, total movement for the period you like to trade, etc.

After studying all of that, put it in the back of your mind and focus on your current trade. Nothing you have learned can make your trade a winner.
If you only trade long, then you can't always be wrong.
  • #6,397
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:56pm Aug 12, 2009 5:56pm
Quoting Gleneagles
What you will learn trading with real money before you have mastered the " basics" on a demo account is that it is very unpleasant to lose money! It is not a skill that you have to master, you already possess the ability to dislike losing money.

OK, I was not talking about people just starting out trading. When I started in Forex (after 4 years trading stocks, so I knew charting) I also used a demo for several months. After a while I made money consistently & switched to live trading ... completely different experience (probably because subconsciously the twin demons of Fear and Greed came back in).

For me, I cannot practice anything new in demo .. or rather, I still put on trades in all 3 of my demo MT4 accounts .. and make piles of unreal money, but it has no relation to what happens my real acct.
That's why I at least have to practice until proficient in a real acct because trading with real money .. even small amounts .. is the crucial factor that my psyche has to overcome.

Or maybe I'm just wierd
******************* I'd rather make money than be right.
  • #6,398
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:58pm Aug 12, 2009 5:58pm
Quoting DocPMD
Now that is what I was looking for! And I am not being sarcastic!

All this time I had been assuming that there were aspects of PA that should influence the decision to take a signal or not....
Hi DocPMD:

I am happy to have been of service. Please elaborate on your "Aha" in detail.
If you only trade long, then you can't always be wrong.
  • #6,399
  • Aug 12, 2009 5:59pm Aug 12, 2009 5:59pm
Quoting ianf0ster
It seems to me that the few traders posting consistently good results are using a lot of discretion on entries, but are doing so in a consistent way.
It is unfortunate that we have already lost one of them (Lucky Lady).
Someone can go find her and drag her back .. just tell her she only needs to post the first 5 pips of her trade profits!
******************* I'd rather make money than be right.
  • #6,400
  • Aug 12, 2009 6:00pm Aug 12, 2009 6:00pm
Quoting FrankenPip
Hi Andy:

Please ask me in my thread. This is Edgetrader's thread and I may be bordering on wearing out my welcome.
Ya think? Think real hard.
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