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NFA - "No more Limit or Stop Loss orders"

  • #361
  • Edited 12:42pm Jul 27, 2009 11:35am | Edited 12:42pm
Quoting pipmutt
I don't want to get involved in the whole FXCM/FIFO debate but I don't think e-micro is viable unless they bring commissions down. The best quote I've had is around $7 R/T, so 5-6 ticks for one M6E Eur/Usd micro contract, plus spread is around 4-5 ticks, that's the equivalent of 9-11 pips on Eur/Usd!

I guess if you take marketmaker price skewing (shading) into account on spot then it shaves a little bit off the difference but e-micro is still way more...
It doen't matter if it's off topic if it is intelligent and helpful. Here is what IB charges on e-micros, each leg.

E-Micro Forex Futures (USD) - M6A, M6B, M6EUSD 1.35http://www.interactivebrokers.com/im...n/onePixel.gif;
E-Micro Forex Futures (CAD) - M6CCAD 1.75http://www.interactivebrokers.com/im...n/onePixel.gif;
E-Micro Forex Futures (CHF) - M6SCHF 1.85;
http://www.interactivebrokers.com/im...n/onePixel.gifE-Micro Forex Futures (JPY) - M6JJPY 275 yen

Liquidity is a concern, and the spread http://equivalentswdc.cme.com:443/index.html appears to be b/t 3, 4 or 5 (much higher than on 125K) .. Not doable now in my opinion.
  • #362
  • Jul 27, 2009 1:03pm Jul 27, 2009 1:03pm
Quoting wwwin
It doen't matter if it's off topic if it is intelligent and helpful. Here is what IB charges on e-micros, each leg.

E-Micro Forex Futures (USD) - M6A, M6B, M6EUSD 1.35http://www.interactivebrokers.com/im...n/onePixel.gif;
E-Micro Forex Futures (CAD) - M6CCAD 1.75http://www.interactivebrokers.com/im...n/onePixel.gif;
E-Micro Forex Futures (CHF) - M6SCHF 1.85;
http://www.interactivebrokers.com/im...n/onePixel.gifE-Micro Forex Futures (JPY) - M6JJPY 275 yen

Liquidity is a concern, and the spread...
IB seem to always be the cheapest! The quotes I was getting were from MFGlobal for low volume.

I agree, not doable right now, maybe things will improve and OTC will become less popular.....could the bucketshop's days be numbered
  • #363
  • Jul 27, 2009 6:39pm Jul 27, 2009 6:39pm
I wonder, why instead of spending time and energy about those new rules, why not just open a brokerage account in London. All the bigger American houses have a branche there. For the ones that are interested in a first class UK ECN broker please pm me. One thing, accounts of $ 50.000 and up. We talk here about interbank level brokerage with prime service.....

Regards
{Promotion Removed}
  • #364
  • Jul 28, 2009 8:47am Jul 28, 2009 8:47am
Jason,

Will the trailing stop be available after 1st of August in FXCM's Trading Station? If I have only one position open I don't see any problems with FIFO. Opening multiple positions should disable this function or convert it to OCO. What's the plan?

Thanks,
Attila
  • #365
  • Jul 28, 2009 12:11pm Jul 28, 2009 12:11pm
Quoting Howtoforex
Jason,

Will the trailing stop be available after 1st of August in FXCM's Trading Station? If I have only one position open I don't see any problems with FIFO. Opening multiple positions should disable this function or convert it to OCO. What's the plan?

Thanks,
Attila
Hi Attila,

The trailing stop will be available on the FXCM UK platform but not on the FXCM US platform. I am not aware of plans to enable it on entry orders for FXCM US accounts, but I will bring it up with our development team.

Jason
  • #366
  • Jul 28, 2009 2:15pm Jul 28, 2009 2:15pm
Quoting Howtoforex
Jason,

Will the trailing stop be available after 1st of August in FXCM's Trading Station? If I have only one position open I don't see any problems with FIFO. Opening multiple positions should disable this function or convert it to OCO. What's the plan?

Thanks,
Attila
Quoting Jason Rogers
Hi Attila,

The trailing stop will be available on the FXCM UK platform but not on the FXCM US platform. I am not aware of plans to enable it on entry orders for FXCM US accounts, but I will bring it up with our development team.

Jason
I can not believe that Gain/Forex.com can get this right, but FXCM doesn't.

As for me, FXCM has until the end of August to restore automatic stop loss and limit orders. After that, I will trade elsewhere.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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  • #367
  • Jul 28, 2009 2:53pm Jul 28, 2009 2:53pm
This saga is not over.

Either:
1. FXCM made a large judgment error; or
2. FXCM knows something the we don't.

You just don't take out functionality for the hell of it. Stay tuned.
  • #368
  • Jul 28, 2009 3:12pm Jul 28, 2009 3:12pm
Quoting wwwin
This saga is not over.

Either:
1. FXCM made a large judgment error; or
2. FXCM knows something the we don't.

You just don't take out functionality for the hell of it. Stay tuned.
Right now I'd guess it is number 1, because in looking around, there are a number of US based forex dealers looking to capitalize on FXCM's decision to remove auto stops/limits. I downloaded forex.com's platform, and it nicely allows for oco, if ... then oco, tailing stops, etc.

Now, if next week the forex.com platform still has this functionality ...
Attached Image(s) (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Forex.com Can Do It OCO.jpg Size: 46 KB
Click to Enlarge Name: Forex.com Can Do It Trailing Stop.jpg Size: 33 KB
  • #369
  • Edited 4:07pm Jul 28, 2009 3:35pm | Edited 4:07pm
Quoting ddaytrader
Right now I'd guess it is number 1, because in looking around, there are a number of US based forex dealers looking to capitalize on FXCM's decision to remove auto stops/limits. I downloaded forex.com's platform, and it nicely allows for oco, if ... then oco, tailing stops, etc.

Now, if next week the forex.com platform still has this functionality ...
hmm....fxcm says... and they will tell you that OCOs "essentially" will provide the same functionality!
NOT!!!
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  • #370
  • Jul 28, 2009 4:32pm Jul 28, 2009 4:32pm
Quoting wwwin
hmm....fxcm says... and they will tell you that OCOs "essentially" will provide the same functionality!
NOT!!!
oco provides the same functionality as oco's. I imagine that a trader who enters with market orders while staring at the screen will not miss much. But anyone who enters positions based on stop or limit orders and who protects that position, as well as any potential profit, with an attached oco is basically screwed.

Oh ... by the way ... did I mention that forex.com also has a wireless version of their trading platform?

FXCM has been "working" on a wireless application for as long as I have had an account with them. How long is that? Well, when did Refco blow up?
  • #371
  • Jul 28, 2009 7:59pm Jul 28, 2009 7:59pm
Quoting Jason Rogers
Hi Attila,

The trailing stop will be available on the FXCM UK platform but not on the FXCM US platform. I am not aware of plans to enable it on entry orders for FXCM US accounts, but I will bring it up with our development team.

Jason

Jason,
could you tell us what's wrong with trailing stop (if we have only one open position) and why is it not compatible with FIFO if that's the excuse?

Thanks,
Attila
  • #372
  • Edited 10:30pm Jul 28, 2009 10:19pm | Edited 10:30pm
Quoting Howtoforex
Jason,
could you tell us what's wrong with trailing stop (if we have only one open position) and why is it not compatible with FIFO if that's the excuse?

Thanks,
Attila

Well, obviously if you only have one open position there would be no FIFO conflict even under FXCM's interpretation...What they will say is that if you open a second position, then you could close the second one before the first, which is true...BUT, they could easily block you from closing subsequent positions until you close the earliest ones, in FIFO order. They already have most of the programming code to block actions, similar to the code used to check if enough margin is avaliable for a trade. If you place a trade where there is not enough margin available it is blocked, "not enough margin", they can add similar code to check if you are attempting to close a later position and block it. "you must first close earlier positions before closing this position" message. It would be the trader's responsibilty then to know that any attempt or any order to close a subsequent position will not function until the first one is closed, and to trade and place orders accordingly. Just my humble opinion.
  • #373
  • Jul 29, 2009 4:37am Jul 29, 2009 4:37am
Quoting wwwin
This saga is not over.

Either:
1. FXCM made a large judgment error; or
2. FXCM knows something the we don't.

You just don't take out functionality for the hell of it. Stay tuned.
Or IMO:

3. Bucket shop tactics: FXCM perceives an opportunity to make a quick buck on all the traders they take the opposite side of the trade to by catching people out who don't know how to use the insane new platform functions. Then make a bit more on the people that transfered to the UK by forcing them to have hedging enabled, claiming it "keeps costs down."

Which is the most likely? 1,2 or 3?
  • #374
  • Jul 29, 2009 7:51am Jul 29, 2009 7:51am
Quoting ddaytrader
I can not believe that Gain/Forex.com can get this right, but FXCM doesn't.

As for me, FXCM has until the end of August to restore automatic stop loss and limit orders. After that, I will trade elsewhere.
Well, I tried out the Forex.com trade station last night, and placed a trade in the demo account using forex.com's "if ... then OCO" functionality.

I took a screen shot of the opening and closing transactions (I needed two screenshots because because I ran up 8 previous open/close transactions to make sure I understood the platform, and this particular opening transaction was the last transaction on page one of the report, and the closing transaction is the first transaction on page two of the report). You may need to look closely, there are actually two different screenshots attached.

As you can see, it worked as one would and should expect. The take profit closed at 2:23:54 Am EDT while I was asleep. The entry order triggered at 11:27:22 PM, also while I was asleep.

After this week, if I trade with FXCM, I would need to stay awake and wait to see if the entry ordered triggered. Then, if it triggers, I would have to enter my OCO stop and limit manually. Then I could go to bed.
I will not remain long in such a situation and I do not expect to have to move to an off shore account to trade properly.

Here is another area where Forex.com has exceeded FXCM's platform capabilities: As I said, I did several other demo trades last night as I learned the platform. Three of them were taking a long position of three separate 100K lots, each at a higher price than the one before as price moved in favor of the trade. Forex.com's platform automatically consolidated the position into one 300k position showing the average entry rate of the three. You could still view each seperate position as well.

Now, if forex.com could do this, why not FXCM?

I'll keep trading with FXCM through August. But if Septtember 1, 2009 comes and passes with no "if ... then OCO" type functionality, I will be gone, and as much as I like FXCM, I will not look back.

I just received the email approving my real account at forex.com, and I will partially fund it today so as to have an account available where I can place my overnight trades.

I know I'm a piker by FXCM standards, and losing my small account will matter little by itself. But I cannot believe that I am the only one for whom this is a make or break issue.
Attached Image(s) (click to enlarge)
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Click to Enlarge Name: EJ Sim Trade Forex.com If ... Then OCO1.jpg Size: 20 KB
  • #375
  • Jul 29, 2009 7:55am Jul 29, 2009 7:55am
Quoting wwwin
Well, obviously if you only have one open position there would be no FIFO conflict even under FXCM's interpretation...What they will say is that if you open a second position, then you could close the second one before the first, which is true...BUT, they could easily block you from closing subsequent positions until you close the earliest ones, in FIFO order. They already have most of the programming code to block actions, similar to the code used to check if enough margin is avaliable for a trade. If you place a trade where there is not enough...
Hi WIN,
that's what I"m thinking too but would like to hear it from FXCM.
To enable this function (again) is not the development team's call as Jason wrote, rather the higher management. Will see ....

Attila
  • #376
  • Jul 29, 2009 8:15am Jul 29, 2009 8:15am
Quoting Howtoforex
To enable this function (again) is not the development team's call as Jason wrote, rather the higher management. Will see ....

Attila
Exactly. A business decison has been made that FXCM, presumably, anticipates will add value to their business.

This is not a technology issue.

This is a business issue.
  • #377
  • Edited 6:31pm Jul 29, 2009 9:48am | Edited 6:31pm
Quoting Howtoforex
.....is not the development team's call ......, rather the higher management. Will see ....
Attila
Agreed, the tail does not wag the dog. And if the development team has caused a design flaw, management should step in to demand a correction to make the platform competitive with the rest of the retail forex universe. I don't want to hear the same song and dance to move account overseas or see ads claiming that the MT4 station EAs are about to crash. The "development team" does not decide that it is good to move account overseas, and the delelopment team does not decide the theme of ad campaigns. If they do, they are way too overworked and maxed out, therefore, don't have the creativity to develop a fully functional platform.
See below ad, as constantly shown round the clock at mql4 website and sometimes in this site. This is obviously a management decision, not a technology issue. It looks like they wanted to get other broker's MT4 clients to their MT4 UK, but missed the boat on US TSII backlash. Stay tuned. I am eagerly awaiting to see what happens to MT4 US EAs on 8-2-09, in particular at IBFX, who says trading as usual. http://www.ibfx.com/company/newsmedi...009/09_13.aspx
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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Attached Image
  • #378
  • Aug 2, 2009 8:21am Aug 2, 2009 8:21am
Quoting wwwin
Agreed, the tail does not wag the dog. And if the development team has caused a design flaw, management should step in to demand a correction to make the platform competitive with the rest of the retail forex universe... I am eagerly awaiting to see what happens to MT4 US EAs on 8-2-09, in particular at IBFX, who says trading as usual. http://www.ibfx.com/company/newsmedi...009/09_13.aspx
T-0 and counting ...


Looks like FXCM has decided to respond with a deafening silence.
  • #379
  • Aug 2, 2009 8:41am Aug 2, 2009 8:41am
From IBFX: " 'Certain US competitors have decided that their solution to the new FIFO rules are to move their customers overseas, rather than being compliant," said Todd Crosland, Chairman and President of Interbank FX. "At Interbank FX, we have embraced the NFA's efforts to help protect customers and provide a seamless solution without any changes to their current trading strategies.'

The only modification for customers will be their daily and monthly account statements, coming directly from the proprietary Interbank FX backoffice system using NFA FIFO offsetting procedures. The FIFO rule takes effect beginning July 31/August 1, 2009 ... this rule affects any broker in the U.S. that is a member of the NFA. Other brokers have attempted different approaches to this new ruling. We at Interbank FX strive to make trading in the forex market as simple as possible for our clients, all the while in full compliance with the NFA. " (emphasis added).

http://www.ibfx.com/company/newsmedi...009/09_13.aspx
  • #380
  • Aug 2, 2009 12:06pm Aug 2, 2009 12:06pm
Quoting ddaytrader
T-0 and counting ...


Looks like FXCM has decided to respond with a deafening silence.
Houston, we have a problem. LOL.
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