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China playing dirty

  • #1
  • First Post: Jul 9, 2009 4:38am Jul 9, 2009 4:38am
China puts a rio tinto employee in jail and accused him of spying. Come on, china is stealing everybody's technology right and left then calling it *chinese original design* Just take a look at their copy cat Rolls Royce. Who would spy on china? They have no new technology, no innovation, no creativity. Just re-branded crap. This is all a stunt to hopefully influence iron ore contract negotiations and to pressure rio who back out of a 19.5 billion dollar deal to state run chinalco. How long can china play dirty with the world economy before it receives major backlash? My guess is not long, why do you think none of the smart money is in china? Article on the arrest http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/707c3e12-6...nclick_check=1
Just Trade It
  • #2
  • Edited 5:13am Jul 9, 2009 4:56am | Edited 5:13am
well...

if we always trade 30hr delayed version of copied & non orginal news...

definitely we can find nothing new out of it...

why creativity is needed in reporting a news.

why labor and material cannot sell for just what it is worth for

but the value has to be innovated and created by some smart & inside people?

can value of a product really be invented by smart people out of not working itself but some smart tricks under the table?

.... when they play the tricks did they place a stop/loss somewhere,

or they assume that holding a foreign passport & serving a foreign master will allow them to take whatever risk

against their own people who eats 2$ a day ... but still exit at b/e when failing... and beyond the reach of any human law and honesty bound?

Quoting Big Wave Rider
China puts a rio tinto employee in jail and accused him of spying. Come on, china is stealing everybody's technology right and left then calling it *chinese original design* Just take a look at their copy cat Rolls Royce. Who would spy on china? They have no new technology, no innovation, no creativity. Just re-branded crap. This is all a stunt to hopefully influence iron ore contract negotiations and to pressure rio who back out of a 19.5 billion dollar deal to state run chinalco. How long can china play dirty with the world economy before it receives...
  • #3
  • Jul 9, 2009 5:03am Jul 9, 2009 5:03am
Quoting Big Wave Rider
China puts a rio tinto employee in jail and accused him of spying....
my GF is Chinese.

she has told me it has something to do with insider dealings that benefit the guys involved.. this is a big no no in corporate behavior in China.

still that's assumption as well right now, time will tell.
  • #4
  • Jul 9, 2009 5:17am Jul 9, 2009 5:17am
Quoting >Apocalypto<
my GF is Chinese.

she has told me it has something to do with insider dealings that benefit the guys involved.. this is a big no no in corporate behavior in China.

still that's assumption as well right now, time will tell.
how did you get the CHINESE................. "APOCALYPTO"?? LOL
  • #5
  • Jul 9, 2009 5:24am Jul 9, 2009 5:24am
Quoting nasir.khan
how did you get the CHINESE................. "APOCALYPTO"?? LOL
how did i get a Chinese lady???

she felt sorry for me I guess!!!!!!
  • #6
  • Edited 6:12am Jul 9, 2009 5:54am | Edited 6:12am
Quoting >Apocalypto<
my GF is Chinese.

she has told me it has something to do with insider dealings that benefit the guys involved.. this is a big no no in corporate behavior in China.

still that's assumption as well right now, time will tell.
I think there are 3 issue with how this case is treated
1. in old saying we say, in a war or peace negotiation table, the ambassador of the counter part should be assured safety
so he's not making judgment in a threatened situation.
it is unusual biz practice to involve law enforcement dept in a trading negotiation

2. the head rep from rio tinto is in a sensitive position in the negotiations
I doubt if he will ever take the risk to directly involve any unlawful insider bribery at this moment...
taking a guess, 98% of the chance he will not touch any definitely unlawful deals directly, only some grey area is possible but it will be via 3rd person

3. if gov & business bribery is wide-spread,
why a specific case has to be treated with a standard that is different from other cases?
sounds as if law enforcement has different standard base on conflict of interest...
however law should be independent 3rd party and apply same standard on every one regardless of you profit or loss from each situation.

base on above 3... I think this treatment is possibly unfair and misuse of power, and I guess eventually the guy will be set free in the back door.

well this doesn't mean I think the things has been properly priced.
if I think things are not properly priced, I will use trading method to correct it, not methods beyond trading.
the same way reversely, if I did not value things properly and trade to loss, I will not blame gov policy... eventually all will be corrected to what it should be.
  • #7
  • Jul 9, 2009 6:19am Jul 9, 2009 6:19am
Quoting billye
I think there are 3 issue with how this case is treated
1. in old saying we say, in a war or peace negotiation table, the ambassador of the counter part should be assured safety
so he's not making judgment in a threatened situation.
it is unusual biz practice to involve law enforcement dept in a trading negotiation

2. the head rep from rio tinto is in a sensitive position in the negotiations
I doubt if he will ever take the risk to directly involve any unlawful insider bribery at this moment...
taking...
Well said but you and I both know that option 3 is impossible. This guy will be let go, eventually. As I said before its a political stunt. China just lost a 19.5 Billion dollar deal and now the new prices for ore will make the chinese miners less competitive. They are doing everything they can to manipulate their currency and commodity prices in order to beat out foreign competition. This is not fair, nor is it legal. This is why investing in china is risky, your protection laws are ZERO. Unless China has a major change in governmental laws and policies then the Chinese economy is a ticking time bomb. All it takes is something like this for all foreign investment to pull out in a hurry.
Just Trade It
  • #8
  • Jul 9, 2009 6:21am Jul 9, 2009 6:21am
Quoting >Apocalypto<
my GF is Chinese.

she has told me it has something to do with insider dealings that benefit the guys involved.. this is a big no no in corporate behavior in China.

still that's assumption as well right now, time will tell.
The corporate behavior in China is corruption and reckless gambling. But thats how it is everywhere else so its nothing new.
Just Trade It
  • #9
  • Jul 9, 2009 6:25am Jul 9, 2009 6:25am
Quoting Big Wave Rider
The corporate behavior in China is corruption and reckless gambling. But thats how it is everywhere else so its nothing new.
has it ever been different in the western world?
  • #10
  • Edited 6:49am Jul 9, 2009 6:33am | Edited 6:49am
comments... but personal opinion only...

quote=Big Wave Rider;2861905 Well said but you and I both know that option 3 is impossible. This guy will be let go, eventually. As I said before its a political stunt.

China just lost a 19.5 Billion dollar deal
it is a good miss, the mine is over priced and I wouldn't buy it, they are stupid to buy material company at stock market price. (20x, 30x pe)

and now the new prices for ore will make the chinese miners less competitive.
you're on the same boat, it's like saying raising rice price will make people eat less... will you raise rice price till no one in the world is still eating?
realestate price is beyond the affordability of anyone so if demand drop to 0 so will be the stock price of the world-wide monopoly miners...
I am sad to foresee the doom of these miners by improperly price the base material which push economy beyond the affordability of people.

net profit point of view, although the negotiation bid the price down...
in reality they make more money when commodity price rise... there is a secret to this I won't go into detail.

They are doing everything they can to manipulate their currency and commodity prices in order to beat out foreign competition.
as far as I know domestic companies are not allowed to play in commodity speculations...
so it is hard to say if there is a 'competition' in terms of who benefit from prices...
it is more related with how economy can survive if material cost is higher than end product ....................before this is answered econ cannot really recover.

This is not fair, nor is it legal.
business bribery is illegal and raising price against his nationals to benefit his new foreign loyalty for personal gain is not ethical as well...
they will not announce it before getting solid proof at hand.
yes it is not fair or proper biz practice.

This is why investing in china is risky, your protection laws are ZERO.
I'd put another way... speculate on a dream of china demand is risky and one has to be accountable for all losses when things return to reality... all is fake before average GDP & income per head really increase.

Unless China has a major change in governmental laws and policies then the Chinese economy is a ticking time bomb.
All it takes is something like this for all foreign investment to pull out in a hurry.
I said again, if I speculate on fake demand and trade to loss, I will not blame anyone but my unrealistic greedies...
trend trader is much safer in this world coz they always trade with a stop/loss.

here is the history data of rice price:
1000 years ago, 50g gold=6000kg rice
300 years ago, 50g gold=2000kg rice
now, 50g gold=2500kg rice

expect commodity to rise 30% year-over-year next 100 yrs?? then before Y2100, all gold on earth can buy less than 6kg of rice....
  • #11
  • Jul 9, 2009 6:55am Jul 9, 2009 6:55am
This is my opinion, say the people of China revolt against the government and put in a new fair government that protects the rights of people and property. BOOOM!!! China becomes the most powerful economy and eventually the most powerful nation in the world. Some argue China is already the most powerful economy in the world but statistically it is not. Not yet anyways. The only obstacle is the communist government that suppresses human rights and property laws.
Just Trade It
  • #12
  • Edited 7:53am Jul 9, 2009 7:21am | Edited 7:53am
Quoting Big Wave Rider
This is my opinion, say the people of China revolt against the government and put in a new fair government that protects the rights of people and property. BOOOM!!! China becomes the most powerful economy and eventually the most powerful nation in the world. Some argue China is already the most powerful economy in the world but statistically it is not. Not yet anyways. The only obstacle is the communist government that suppresses human rights and property laws.
going too far... here is some other data.
1. 80% of long term investors in domestic stock market
don't lose or lose more than 30%...
the SEC is focused at protection of small investor rights
there is no such thing as off-exchange bucket shops...
last time I wanted to open a commodity future acc and the agent educated me 1hr for investor risk...
eventually she said I am not mature enough to safely trade comm future, they don't want to risk my money and make commission from me->rejected my acc opening >_<

fraud and ponzi is not allowed... former SEC head will not hold a ponzi bank.
I see this data more assuring and regulated than forex market

2. profit from other people's loss is not a respected value
people focus on benefit from his own hard work and promote the interest of the business partners
people who cheat for personal gain is not respected...
so neither is bribery and misuse of power respected and supported in individual case
improper treatments will be corrected by time... (gov will switch every 5yrs after all so no one can dominant the history books)

3. people are not judged upon and classified
base on how much money he or his family have
they all have same rights to enter university and learn if they work hard at school
they are equal to find a job and build a family

4. rights means I work hard for a good life and will get it.
say if I work hard but 90% of my pay goes to the pockets of commodity and realestate speculators...
this means my fairness and right is hindered by over speculation and greedy of hot money, rather than under regulated gov operations

I mentioned it before... not even boom...
economic recovery is not possible before industry material and realestate (part of labor cost) goes to reasonable...

economy has it's basic rules of cost and profit...
politics have <5% effect in real business operations... politician has nothing more than words...
china is a follower/clone of US so really there is not much surprise a new politician can bring about.
... it has very little effect to how well people could be living...

the life will not be better before average income of people rise,
everyone has to work on improving his own then overall will be better...
and again it's not going to be a 30% year-over-year increase or an over-night change that can bring about
it takes generations of hard-work as many of early asian nations has gone through

westerns enjoy a good life because of past hundred year of hard-work and accumulated knowledge and proven systems
it is also not earned over night.
  • #13
  • Jul 10, 2009 2:51am Jul 10, 2009 2:51am
Quoting &gt;Apocalypto&lt;
how did i get a Chinese lady???

she felt sorry for me I guess!!!!!!
I mean
Attached Image
  • #14
  • Edited 9:15am Jul 11, 2009 9:01am | Edited 9:15am
Hi Billye, you don't need to debate with this guy, just no bother. It's waste of your time!

He is anti-China and anti-China's government, as always.
http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=75843

When you argue with this guy, you lose.

So my bro, why don't you just leave him alone play with himself?

As we all know, in this World, POWER RULES.

Regards,
Mike
  • #15
  • Edited 9:52am Jul 11, 2009 9:20am | Edited 9:52am
not debating,

we're just speculating what could/may happen if
a chinese citizen employed by foreign company & holding foreign passport
has business bribery w/ state owned company officials to get good price in a sensitive business negotiations.

should he be treated in a standard more strict or less than normal biz bbr??

however nothing is proved till more evidence is seen.

from the timing relationship with the broke of neogotiation (Jun.30)
it seems it's treated in a more strict standard than normal which seens not fair....
only loser will play beyond the business world to express it's anger... which reflect that the state owned company official is not mature.

however there may be more under-ground thing that we don't know....
more data is showing that iron companies has last half year idling / no production because the ore price is more expensive than end product.
if staying with Y2007 ore price, all iron company has to shut-down because buying iron from market is cheaper than buy ore and producer iron.
it is like buying rice and DIY a lunch is more expensive than going to restaurant....

if this is the real case, then pricing base material more expensive than end product may hinder econ recovery
and I emphasis this many times that all our stock holdings, the miner stocks and possibly more jobs will not recover
till energy and material specualation be peaced down...

given that cost of ton of ore is 20$, pricing it at 100$ and make the rest of the world .. then miner itself fall
and even push the daily eating budget of direct labors in iron company from 2$ a day -> 1$ a day...

is a ridiculous short-term profit-taken that will stop the world from recovery...
if this is the case definitely the miners are wrong and G20 need to take action to push materials price back to reasonable instead of excessive profit.

and btw as I know, branding it as spy rather than economic crime will give a back-door for the person to set free to be treated in other country...that's the usual operations.
this may reflect that they want to play this news big in public, but eventually will not punish the person... just send it back to other country.?

any how, this is a win/lose game between worldwide monopoly miners and monopoly national iron industries, possibility 2 dirty finger point at each other...........

I don't think there is fixed thing as personal bias...
A person will only spend time with you, learn what is happening, and judge with common sense because he want you to succeed in a civil way,
I think in this world most of the time the common value rules, that is,
fairness in being able to work and get reward (including protected and treated fairly by law enforcement... w/o some conditions attached),
freedom to pursue personal dream and better life,
and most important of all, safety to express opinion freely, being respected and listened to, while not necessarily agreed upon due to different aspect of fact one can access differently.

there is nothing wrong people look at one case and say... 'no, you did not do it right'.

the world history in past century already prove that, power does not rule people's heart, nor does it last in history books.

Quoting Zkf
Hi Billye, you don't need to debate with this guy, just no bother. It's waste of your time!

Regards,
Mike
  • #16
  • Jul 11, 2009 10:17am Jul 11, 2009 10:17am
man, are you living in a ideally perfectly wonderful world?

Who give s**t about the " power does not rule people's heart, nor does it last in history books." , US government or any other people?

Let me quote Gordon from Wall Street, (with slightly difference):
"The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed(for being power) -- for lack of a better word -- is good.

Greed(being power) is right.

Greed(being power) works.
Greed(being power) clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

"
Every human being in this world fight for the power, fight for the money in everyday's life.

Let me put it in this way, if this case is an US Steel Company versus those iron companies, what's the results whould be and the reactions of the media?

When you be powerful in that way, everybody listens.


Bye for now, and enjoy your narcissism.
  • #17
  • Jul 11, 2009 10:36am Jul 11, 2009 10:36am
not debating,

we're just speculating what could/may happen if
a chinese citizen employed by foreign company & holding foreign passport
has business bribery w/ state owned company officials to get good price in a sensitive business negotiations.

should he be treated in a standard more strict or less than normal biz bbr??

however nothing is proved till more evidence is seen.

from the timing relationship with the broke of neogotiation (Jun.30)
it seems it's treated in a more strict standard than normal which seens not fair....
only loser will play beyond the business world to express it's anger... which reflect that the state owned company official is not mature.

however there may be more under-ground thing that we don't know....
more data is showing that iron companies has last half year idling / no production because the ore price is more expensive than end product.
if staying with Y2007 ore price, all iron company has to shut-down because buying iron from market is cheaper than buy ore and producer iron.
it is like buying rice and DIY a lunch is more expensive than going to restaurant....

if this is the real case, then pricing base material more expensive than end product may hinder econ recovery
and I emphasis this many times that all our stock holdings, the miner stocks and possibly more jobs will not recover
till energy and material specualation be peaced down...

given that cost of ton of ore is 20$, pricing it at 100$ and make the rest of the world .. then miner itself fall
and even push the daily eating budget of direct labors in iron company from 2$ a day -> 1$ a day...

is a ridiculous short-term profit-taken that will stop the world from recovery...
if this is the case definitely the miners are wrong and G20 need to take action to push materials price back to reasonable instead of excessive profit.

and btw as I know, branding it as spy rather than economic crime will give a back-door for the person to set free to be treated in other country...that's the usual operations.
this may reflect that they want to play this news big in public, but eventually will not punish the person... just send it back to other country.?

any how, this is a win/lose game between worldwide monopoly miners and monopoly national iron industries, possibility 2 dirty finger point at each other...........

I don't think there is fixed thing as personal bias...
A person will only spend time with you, learn what is happening, and judge with common sense because he want you to succeed in a civil way,
I think in this world most of the time the common value rules, that is,
fairness in being able to work and get reward (including protected and treated fairly by law enforcement... w/o some conditions attached),
freedom to pursue personal dream and better life,
and most important of all, safety to express opinion freely, being respected and listened to, while not necessarily agreed upon due to different aspect of fact one can access differently.

there is nothing wrong people look at one case and say... 'no, you did not do it right'.

the world history in past century already prove that, power does not rule people's heart, nor does it last in history books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zkf http://www.forexfactory.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
Hi Billye, you don't need to debate with this guy, just no bother. It's waste of your time!

Regards,
Mike
  • #18
  • Jul 11, 2009 10:40am Jul 11, 2009 10:40am
problem is when you believe power could give you privilege over fair reward...
as is the case when state owned company dominates the domestic market, one sentence law & no questions asked.

there could be a bigger power to get privilege over you...
as seen in this negotiation...

there is no end to how much hurt it could be done by 2 'power' revenge against each other.
in past thousand years history, every time one 'power' fights another, innocent people suffer.

as a plain citizen I see no benefit of those powers running there than everyone play the fair rule...
I know to get rid of greedy takes a long time... but it's worth working on it.

Quoting Zkf
man, are you living in a ideally perfectly wonderful world?
Let me quote Gordon from Wall Street, (with slightly difference):
"The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed(for being power) -- for lack of a better word -- is good.
[left]Greed(being power) is right.
Greed(being power) works.
[size=2][font=Verdana]Greed(being power) clarifies, cuts through, and captures...
  • #19
  • Edited 5:15am Jul 12, 2009 4:02am | Edited 5:15am
Y2003
a gold mine in south-west china was sold to a joint venture
it contains official confirmed 100 tons of gold with future potential of 400 tons.

the joint venture shares is split by 10% / 90%
local gov holds 10% for the 100 ton of gold mines
foreign investment holds 90% for 3 million$ capital injection

let's do a simple calc
Y2003: 100 ton gold=100ton*(1000*1000)g*10$/g=1 billion $
and foreign investment holds 90% of that by investing 3 million$?!!

this is 1000 million vs 3 million, but joint venture shares split is 10% vs 90%

Y2009: 100 ton gold=100ton*(1000*1000)g*30$/g=3 billion $

future potential
Y2050: 400 ton gold=400ton*(1000*1000)g*50$/g=20 billion $

how good it is to buy 20 billion$ using only 3 million$...

and some clever & innovative foreign investor did it,
I guess it is by fair market operations and ethic business practices.... w/o putting any money in the gov officer pocket.

ps: if you think above is impossible to happen, then read it as a joke
Attached Image
  • #20
  • Jul 13, 2009 4:45am Jul 13, 2009 4:45am
Quoting Zkf
Hi Billye, you don't need to debate with this guy, just no bother. It's waste of your time!

He is anti-China and anti-China's government, as always.
http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=75843

When you argue with this guy, you lose.

So my bro, why don't you just leave him alone play with himself?

As we all know, in this World, POWER RULES.

Regards,
Mike


I'm not anti-China.
I'm just anit-communist and pro human rights.
BIG DIFFERENCE.
I've been to China and love the Chinese people.
I Don't like the Chinese government.
Once China becomes a democratic nation who's laws protects people and their rights, then I will like the Chinese government. But never trust any government.

anyways back to the topic
President Hu endorsed the arrests
http://www.cnbc.com//id/31880885

My job is not to say who's gov't is better, my job is to take this information and see how it will affect the AUD and then make a profit.


Greed is Good.
Just Trade It
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