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NFA - "No more Limit or Stop Loss orders"

  • #41
  • Jul 2, 2009 11:29am Jul 2, 2009 11:29am
Quoting codeman
Maybe a simple stupid Question. But whats about the Spread? If i close my open long position via OCO and selling the same amount, may i have to pay the Spread 2 times? (buy and sell)?

Mike
hi codeman,

The spread is only paid once in your example case. You would only be paying the spread if a new position were created.

It's the same scenario as if your trade were closed directly with a stop/limit order or close position order directly.

Jason
  • #42
  • Jul 2, 2009 11:35am Jul 2, 2009 11:35am
"The last thing we want to happen is for information to be disregarded and come August 1 trades be left unmanaged only result in uncontrolled losses."

Jason

So why did you not take a stand against "uncontrolled losses?"

Do you want traders to have them? Is it in your favor? and why should we have to go to the UK? Are we going to have to have our $$ deposits converted to Cable when we withdraw (double jeopardy)?

And are you hedging against us?

Getting madder by the moment, Madmax
  • #43
  • Jul 2, 2009 11:48am Jul 2, 2009 11:48am
I used to be at FXCM US and moved to FXCM UK a few months ago to keep hedging enabled.

To all of you shouting at Jason, don't shoot the messenger, and stop blaming your broker for your loss.

If you move your account to the UK, you can keep the currency you have now. I was in Euro and I am still in Euro... If you are in USD, your account will be in USD.
  • #44
  • Jul 2, 2009 11:58am Jul 2, 2009 11:58am

  1. If all the brokers are working on "solutions" (and possibly they'll find something if they want to e.g. OCO) to overwrite this new stupid rule, what is the reason to come out with it on the first place??? (the ban on hedging was killed by opening a secondary account.)
  2. Would be nice to know what was/is FXCM's opinion regarding this insanity and the planed leverage limit?
  3. Since all the Forex brokers must be paying members of NFA why do they approved this crap?
  4. Why don't we have an open discussion on forums like this BEFORE they come alive?
  5. I'm sick and tired of NFA looking for "my best interest"...

Attila

  • #45
  • Jul 2, 2009 12:06pm Jul 2, 2009 12:06pm
1) Multiple accounts (multiple brokers) for different orders.

2) A program that reads the mt4 platforms and automatically closes that one position at one broker as a stop loss or a take profit.

3) If someone makes one and sells it i want commision.

4) If one understood the above ,then please explain to me as well
  • #46
  • Jul 2, 2009 1:18pm Jul 2, 2009 1:18pm
Quoting Madmax1952

Are we going to have to have our $$ deposits converted to Cable when we withdraw (double jeopardy)?
I think you can have your ac in USD when you move to UK. Or you can have it in EUR, GBP. Its upto you.
  • #47
  • Jul 2, 2009 2:00pm Jul 2, 2009 2:00pm
Quoting Madmax1952
So why did you not take a stand against "uncontrolled losses?"

Do you want traders to have them? Is it in your favor? and why should we have to go to the UK? Are we going to have to have our $$ deposits converted to Cable when we withdraw (double jeopardy)?

And are you hedging against us?

Getting madder by the moment, Madmax
Hi Madmax,

Stops and limit orders will not be available on individual tickets since FIFO rules have to be followed; therefore, OCO orders need to be used instead. FXCM traders can either stay with FXCM US and use OCO orders, or move to FXCM UK and keep the same order functionality they are used to.

This was discussed previous in the thread and on our press release provided here.

-Jason
  • #48
  • Jul 2, 2009 2:22pm Jul 2, 2009 2:22pm
Quoting Howtoforex
[list=1][*]If all the brokers are working on "solutions" (and possibly they'll find something if they want to e.g. OCO) to overwrite this new stupid rule, what is the reason to come out with it on the first place??? (the ban on hedging was killed by opening a secondary account.)[*]Would be nice to know what was/is FXCM's opinion regarding this insanity and the planed leverage limit?[*]Since all the Forex brokers must be paying members of NFA why do they approved this crap?[*]Why don't we have an open discussion on forums like this BEFORE they...
Hi Attila,

Thanks for the questions. While the NFA asks for "input" from forex dealer members on proposed rules, it's the NFA and CFTC's decision regardless of how many objections there may be. FXCM outlined our opinion as tactfully as possible by stating in our press release: "While FXCM acknowledges the NFA's concern and obligation to protect clients, FXCM would like to extend an option to those who would like to continue using stop-loss and limit orders and understand the implications."

If you feel strongly about the new rules, please contact the NFA.

-Jason
  • #49
  • Jul 2, 2009 2:23pm Jul 2, 2009 2:23pm
Quoting denverdude
I think you can have your ac in USD when you move to UK. Or you can have it in EUR, GBP. Its upto you.
denverdude is correct.

-Jason
  • #50
  • Jul 2, 2009 2:32pm Jul 2, 2009 2:32pm
Wow, newbies love to complain and get angry and blame the big bad broker for trying to take their money. It is quite funny, actually.

Look people, I've been with FXCM 4 years and never a hitch.

FIFO is a common accounting principle used in all types of financial markets. This is nothing new and is currently the way equities and futures are handled.

Newbies like to complain about their brokers and how there is no regulation, and then there's some regulation and newbies think it's another way for brokers to steal from traders. It gets a little tiring hearing the complaints.

Roll with the flow people, the OCO entry orders are a direct replacement of stops and limits as far as I can tell, with the exception of trailing stops which I'm a little bummed about.

Another option, code an API interface and then you can keep the stops on your side, and then just trigger an opposing order to close a position. This would also take care of the mythical 'stop hunting' you all believe in too. Two birds with one stone.

This is how I'll be doing it, this is a good time to finish it up, been putting it off for too long.

Smoke
  • #51
  • Jul 2, 2009 2:34pm Jul 2, 2009 2:34pm
Quoting denverdude
No more 400:1 leverage. Not that I support that kind of leveraging, but this might push many brokers to the brink.
1:400 is very high leverage, you must be nuts to go over that level.
  • #52
  • Jul 2, 2009 2:43pm Jul 2, 2009 2:43pm
Quoting SmokyByers
Wow, newbies love to complain and get angry and blame the big bad broker for trying to take their money....
U must be favorite player over there at FXCM - Now they(and many other US based Brokers) can take even more of your money in the form of additional trades that would otherwise never have been born.(commisions/spread/ect.) This rule will force me to open positions I wouldnt have otherwise needed too.This is ridiculous! I should have the option of my trade management and not have this BS forced down my throat. This is probably why they will limit Leverage to 100:1 or 25:1 . Give and take I guess.
FF = Forex Faggots
  • #53
  • Jul 2, 2009 2:48pm Jul 2, 2009 2:48pm
Quoting 8fingers
U must be favorite player over there at FXCM - Now they(and many other US based Brokers) can take even more of your money in the form of additional trades that would otherwise never have been born.(commisions/spread/ect.) This rule will force me to open positions I wouldnt have otherwise needed too.

Please explain how additional trades are required.
  • #54
  • Jul 2, 2009 2:57pm Jul 2, 2009 2:57pm
Quoting 8fingers
U must be favorite player over there at FXCM -

I wish I traded enough money to be a favorite of theirs....someday
  • #55
  • Jul 2, 2009 3:05pm Jul 2, 2009 3:05pm
Quoting SmokyByers
Please explain how additional trades are required.
Maybe my understanding of OCO is wrong(wouldnt be 1st for me) but I have more interest in understanding what these new Regs will really force me to do to be able to use my EA in a conforming US based Broker. Unfortunatly,all these posts(and probably some of mine as well) have left me more unsure and scratching my head. SmokyByers or Jason please walk me thru an average trade from start to finish comparing both old and new rules. In a dumbed down way-lol . If u get a chance. Stoploss settings were required for my EA trading. I think (eventually) all MT Brokers will be using MT5 and I want to be informed . I had no intention of starting drama either, thats useless in trading. P.S. I do know what the meaning of OCO is-just unclear on how these new rules impact the loss of my Stoploss trading.
FF = Forex Faggots
  • #56
  • Jul 2, 2009 3:10pm Jul 2, 2009 3:10pm
Maybe Jason could be more desrciptive as he actually works for them, but I can summarize it in a few lines:

The opposing OCO order acts the same as a stop order, it only liquidates the open position, and does not open a new position. It is impossible to pay a spread on a position that is not opened.

Put things in perspective, a stop loss (as currently exists) is an order no different than an OCO. There are no spread costs on stop losses currently, so why would there be on an OCO?

Smoke
  • #57
  • Jul 2, 2009 3:17pm Jul 2, 2009 3:17pm
Quoting 8fingers
Stoploss settings were required for my EA trading. I think (eventually) all MT Brokers will be using MT5 and I want to be informed.
So you're a MT4 trader? If I remember correctly (I don't code EA's so forgive me if incorrect) isn't there a CloseTrade function for EA's. Could you not 'code in' your stop losses similar to what I mention above? That is, instead of sending a stop loss with your order, have a pre-determined price point within your EA where an opposing trade is entered to close out.
  • #58
  • Jul 2, 2009 3:21pm Jul 2, 2009 3:21pm
Jason, I am currently trading a standard account (previously considered 100K - $10/pip). Now if I opt for the transfer to FXCM UK, the transfer form says Standard Account 10K (which is a micro account $1/pip). Have they also removed the 100K accounts?
  • #59
  • Jul 2, 2009 3:30pm Jul 2, 2009 3:30pm
  •  Kitara
  • | Joined Mar 2008 | Status: This space for rent...call for info | 128 Posts
Another defense to FXCM, I think they're great. They were my first broker (gosh, 5 years now!), and while I have other brokers as well, I still use them too. If you got an email from them informing you about the change in rules, it has a link that plays a video on how OCO orders works. It may help explain it better to those of you with questions.
I give them props for being so pro-active in informing us of the changes and giving us options to still hedge and use stops/limits on their UK side. Jason seems to be taking it well with the beating up his company is receiving in this forum. I can tell you that FXCM has great customer service, and why not talk with them directly first about things before bashing them in a forum? They didn't make the rule, but they do have to abide by what the NFA puts out.
  • #60
  • Jul 2, 2009 3:39pm Jul 2, 2009 3:39pm
Quoting 8fingers
Maybe my understanding of OCO is wrong(wouldnt be 1st for me) but I have more interest in understanding what these new Regs will really force me to do to be able to use my EA in a conforming US based Broker. Unfortunatly,all these posts(and probably some of mine as well) have left me more unsure and scratching my head. SmokyByers or Jason please walk me thru an average trade from start to finish comparing both old and new rules. In a dumbed down way-lol . If u get a chance. Stoploss settings were required for my EA trading. I think (eventually)...
hi 8 fingers,

How is FIFO going to affect MT4? I'm afraid I won't be much help there. FXCM has decided not to offer MT4 through FXCM US anymore. We will only be offering MT4 through FXCM UK due to the FIFO rules. The OCO functionality only applies to the FX Trade Station II platform.

To date, we have received no indication that the MT4 platform will be able to be modified to comply with first-in-first-out execution without significant loss in functionality. We have reviewed possible "solutions" and in our opinion it would cripple many expert advisors which is one of the main reasons we released MT4 for our traders.

Instead our traders can go through FXCM UK and continue trading as they always have.

For OCO"s on the FX Trade Station, it will liquidate open positions if you create them in opposition to what you have open. Meaning for example if you are long EUR/USD, you need to create OCO entry orders to sell. Or if you're short EUR/USD, you need to create OCO entry orders to buy. SmokyByers is correct. This method would enable you to use OCO orders as you would use stops/limits.

-Jason
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