MT4 Brokers' Virtual Dealer Plug-In

A genuine ECN broker, is fair. mbTrading, NordMarkets and supposably ATC. But going by the previous post, the jury is out on that one. Truly NDD.

ECN-style is just a cover for retail market bandit except they have variable spreads all day. Have an in built conflict of interest. Hence they are more likely to use tactics like this. Have an NDD somewhere in the system.

Fixed spread market bandit have an in built conflict of interest, which is why it normally says it somewhere in their customer agreement. Hence they are more likely to use tactics like this. You will see some of the big retail market bandits (like I*B*F*X) claim that they have a NDD system. They probably don't, but a company that they are related to probably does have the NDD and deals all the trades for them. Have an NDD somewhere in the system.

Actually they denied using the plug-in - If I'm correct the response was more along the line that WE CREATE OUR OWN PLUG-INS!! (Instead of the .."We would never, never use anything that would effect your trading")

PFG best claims to be fully STP and beat MBTrading to the punch with the live MT4 platform. PFG even suggested that MBtrading came to them asking to be an introducing broker. Not sure if that was a sales pitch. fxopen is demoing their ECN version now with high hopes. I hope FXOpen does pull it off. But offers smaller orders.

I suppose that ultimately we'll never know for sure, unless we were able to have contact with the bank directly and confirm each order. Or if they had an online system where you can punch in the order # and you can check for yourself. There is no problem with them adding on to the natural spread, as long as they specify this and are consistent with it. They are sending the orders directly to the banks, but just add x.x pips on whatever the top per side. And it is automated. STP-style ecn. is similar but with NO markup on the quoted prices directly, just a separate commission charged per trade.

If there is a middleman, they are going to take their cut. It's up to you to choose how they take it.

I would say as long as what you see is what you get, then you're ok. i.e. NO re-quoting should ever take place. EVER. In fact, that is the litmus test. If they are not true ECN/STP, you WILL get re-quoted. Because the broker doesn't want to pay for that price. But if prices are coming direct from the market itself (banks) and the orders are GOING directly to the market (banks), then it should be filled relatively quickly at the current market price.

Only thing you have to watch is slippage. price accepted at should be at or very close to what was offered at the specific time that you sent the order through. The exceptions of course would be related news announcements or world events.

Wish there was an Expert Advisor that could keep track of this (slippage on every trade)

You have to look at it from the bank perspective as well. Nordmarkets have a minimum of 0.4 lots to use their ECN. Their response as to why I could not trade 0.1 was that no bank would accept such a small lot size. I also asked this question to FXopen, who is saying their Live ECN platform will be 1.0 lot size MINIMUM. They said it was coming from the banks and had little to do with them. Although it was interesting that they are claiming $1,000 starting balances, which with 1:100 leverage you are margined out with one pip move.

Looks like fxcm (and others) they get more STP pricing if you are willing to open an acct with $25k or higher dollar amounts.

here is a copy and paste from a live chat with fxcm, just a few minutes ago, who claims to have no dealing desk, but then it gets very interesting. Very frank between the 2 of us if you ask me.


FXCM£23: Welcome to FXCM's Live Chat Feature. How may I help you?

josh: yes, I am wondering how the pricing works for your mt4 platform? how do the orders get filled?

FXCM£23: The order is filled using
FXCM£23: our No Dealing Desk execution
FXCM£23: method where every trade is sent to a bank
FXCM£23: What kind of experience do you have so far with MT4?

josh: the prices that are shown in your mt4 platform, are they manipulated in anyway? If so, how much are you adding or subtracting from spread?

FXCM£23: FXCM sends every trade to a bank
FXCM£23: We don't run a dealing desk
FXCM£23: on our MT4 platformm

josh: I read what you say about no dealing desk. That does not mean that the prices you quote in your Boston Technology platform cannot be manipulated so in theory there would be an confirmation or order # for each buy/sell transaction from the bank and we should be able to contact the bank to confirm the buys and the sells.

FXCM£23: Our banks give us a tighter spread than what is shown on our NDD platform
FXCM£23: the spread is then marked up
FXCM£23: that is how FXCM makes it's profits

josh: what is the commission?

FXCM£23: We make it from the volume of trades
FXCM£23: The markup is our comission
FXCM£23: FXCM is your counterparty and we don't disclose
FXCM£23: who our banks are due to non disclosure agreements
FXCM£23: with the banks
FXCM£23: If you are looking for a broker, that will give you the name of the banks
FXCM£23: FXCM is not for you

josh: ok. how much is the markup? is it static (fixed) or do you change it throughout the day.
josh: if so, is it stated in the live client agreement?

FXCM£23: no, we don't change the markup throughout the day
FXCM£23: as higher spreads would make
FXCM£23: us not competitive
FXCM£23: and we benefit only when trades are placed
FXCM£23: The markup can be adjusted for
FXCM£23: when the account is setup for client's
FXCM£23: who are doing a high volume of trades with us

josh: how would i know what the real, unmanipulated price is? For the starting client, what is the markup for the pairs? is there a list with these values?

FXCM£23: http://www.fxcm.com/spreads.jsp
FXCM£23: This is a list of our typical spreads
josh: okay, but how would i know what the real, unmanipulated price is? For the starting client, what is the markup for the pairs?
FXCM£23: You can sign up for a an active trader demo
FXCM£23: account

josh: please answer the last question.

FXCM£23: http://www.fxcm.com/active-trader.jsp
FXCM£23: I can call you and answer all of your questions
FXCM£23: what is a good number to reach you?

josh: but, the active trader, is this with mt4 platform?

FXCM£23: no, but you can check the price feed
FXCM£23: we give to our most active traders
FXCM£23: which is without the mark up

josh: ok, fair enough

FXCM£23: On active trader, we show the spread without the mark up
FXCM£23: and then charge a dollar amount comission
FXCM£23: based on a tiered volume structure

josh: so the commission for the mini lot on the active trader platform is 1/10th the fee of the full size lot?

FXCM£23: yes for mini lots
FXCM£23: it will be 1/10th
FXCM£23: how actively do you trade?

josh: with 0.1 lots (mini lots), I can easily do 200 trades per MARKET. But I need an mt4 platform that lets me use EA. Does your active trader platform have an api or a way to bridge prices and orders from 3rd party software?

FXCM£23: yes, the active trader platform has an API
FXCM£23: what 3rd party software
FXCM£23: are you using?
FXCM£23: Our MT4 platform has no restrictions against EA's

josh: probably would be some sort of mt4 bridge. What programming language does it use?
josh: But the mt4 platform is only for the smaller volume traders. The active trader platform does not use MT4, correct?

FXCM£23: If you have your EA
FXCM£23: in MQL4
FXCM£23: why not use our MT4 platform
FXCM£23: that uses a bridge
FXCM£23: We can negotiate the pricing
FXCM£23: on the MT4 platform
FXCM£23: based on your volume
FXCM£23: so the same pricing strucuture on our active trader
FXCM£23: can be applied to our MT4 accounts

josh: okay. And I would get this in writing?
josh: could I also have access DEMOS that would have this same type of pricing?

FXCM£23: yes, anytime you are not on our retail platform
FXCM£23: sorry any time you are not on retail pricing
FXCM£23: there is a custom fee payment authorization
FXCM£23: that we send over to you for you to sign
FXCM£23: so at 200 trades a day at 10k average size?

josh: no, per month.
josh: per market.
josh: I can trade single market accts. Too bad you don't offer EURSGD

FXCM£23: so how much volume and deposit are we talking about?

josh: I take that back. When I trade 1 pair, I usually trade it at .2 or .3 lots
josh: if I trade more than one with this ea, you reduce the lot size. so if i trade 3, it would be .1 each
josh: so if you were to re-calculate 200 trades at .3 lots x 10k per .1 lot, you would be at around 6 million in volume
josh: the initial deposit would be 10-15k. Maybe 20k.

FXCM£23: 6 million in volume
FXCM£23: and 20k
FXCM£23: I can see what I can do for you
FXCM£23: You are shy of the $25,000
FXCM£23: or the 10m
FXCM£23: Where are you currently trading at?

josh: i trade at fxopen and fxdd. and running demos at a multitude of other brokerages. most claiming to be "true ecn"

FXCM£23: how is your execution
FXCM£23: at the other firms?

josh: pretty good, actually......

FXCM£23: what is making you look for another additional liquidity provider?

josh: the concern here is what you will be offering.
josh: price and fairness.
josh: obviously as traders we want the best price possible.
josh: fast fills. no crap when you have to withdraw.
josh: really no different than what you would want if you were trading.

FXCM£23: understandable
FXCM£23: did you program your EA"s
josh: unfortunately, no
FXCM£23: or are they commercial off the shelf EA"s?

josh: what does this have to do with what you will provide as a liquidator
josh: as broker
josh: ?

FXCM£23: Why don't you start with us on a smaller scale
FXCM£23: test run your EA
FXCM£23: and then we can talk about pricing?

josh: i'm already doing that on demo.
josh: but I see your point.

FXCM£23: the reason I say that is
FXCM£23: if it is a commerical EA

josh: so you're saying that if I were to open an acct with 25000, that's all it takes to get the active pricing on MT4
josh: ?

FXCM£23: you want to run in on a live price feed
FXCM£23: as every broker will have subtle differences
FXCM£23: when they try to deploy
FXCM£23: NDD execution
FXCM£23: Yes, if you deposited $25,000 we would give you active trader pricing

josh: automatically

FXCM£23: No, you request it
FXCM£23: when you setup the account
FXCM£23: and we have to customize
FXCM£23: they agreement with you

josh: ok. then what is the minimum acct balance afterwards?

FXCM£23: Would you like a colleage in our active trader team to call you
FXCM£23: tomorrow?

josh: why not. after 11am EST in the united states, please.
josh: do you offer other markets that are not listed in your list of spreads?

FXCM£23: we do have some exotic pairs
FXCM£23: but due to regulatory issues
FXCM£23: we can't offer you access to other markets
FXCM£23: we have access to indices, oil for our non US clients

josh: I thought forex was largely unregulated

FXCM£23: No, Forex in the US is regulated by the NFA and CFTC

josh: But MT4 platform is not in US, correct? If you are a non-US citizen, living in the united states.
josh: separate question: if you are a non-us citizen living in US, how do you handle the acct opening?

FXCM£23: It goes by residency
FXCM£23: not by citizenship as much
FXCM£23: We need a copy of ID and proof of address

josh: physical location

FXCM£23: yes the requirements vary based on residency

josh: okay. So that a us citizen could, if he/she was living abroad, could have access to the exotic pairs?

FXCM£23: sorry the exotic pairs are not limited
FXCM£23: by residency
FXCM£23: access to other markets such as indices and Oil is limited by residency

josh: 1) are these available via the mt4 platform? (I didn't see them) 2) So that a us citizen could, if he/she was living abroad, could have access to the indicies/oil?
josh: 3) what do you consider to be exotic pairs?

FXCM£23: It is not available
FXCM£23: on the MT4 platform
FXCM£23: Exotic ZAR, NOK, SEK

josh: So you do have EUR/SEK?

FXCM£23: yes
FXCM£23: but not on MT4
FXCM£23: EUR/SEK
FXCM£23: USD/SEK
FXCM£23: CHF/SEK
FXCM£23: GBP/SEK
FXCM£23: SEK/JPY
FXCM£23: USD/NOK
FXCM£23: EUR/NOK
FXCM£23: CHF/NOK
FXCM£23: NOK/JPY
FXCM£23: USD/DKK

josh: when you keep saying "but not on mt4", that defeats the purpose. Remember, I'm trying to stick with MT4.

FXCM£23: did you sign up for a demo
FXCM£23: on our MT4 platform yet?

josh: YES, again

FXCM£23: the pairs listed will be the same pairs
FXCM£23: we offer on our live account

josh: I thought you can manually add markets with customer request.

FXCM£23: we can look at requests from time
FXCM£23: for additinoal pairs on the MT4
FXCM£23: provided you are doing the volume

josh: what is so hard about offering the same stuff on the MT4 platform?
josh: is it the mt4 platform itself or what?

FXCM£23: It is not
FXCM£23: it's just a business decision
FXCM£23: there is not enough demand
FXCM£23: are you trading the EURSEK
FXCM£23: at the moment on MT4?

josh: fxpro.com demo although I do actually have a live acct with them as well.
https://server.iad.liveperson.net/hc...o/chatinfo.gif
https://server.iad.liveperson.net/hc...o/chatinfo.gif
FXCM£4: oh i see

josh: a market I wanted to test live, but looking around for a better deal.
josh: they do have a lot of markets, but their spreads arent always the greatest. But acceptable if you must trade it.

FXCM£4: i see. our best deal is going to be the MT4 platform with the active pricing i think. if SEK is an important trading instrument for you
FXCM£4: i can possibly see if we can get it on MT4
FXCM£4: i would need to research and get with you though
FXCM£4: as i am not sure right now

josh: they claim they have no dealing desk. Everyone does nowadays. But in reality, the "dealing desk" is simply built into the spread (in your case and in most cases) for the less active traders. But perhaps you are not allowed to admit that for marketing purposes. That is the reality. I'm okay with it, as long as it is consistent. Technically, there should be ZERO requotes in any platform.

FXCM£4: right, we dont requote. orders are just processed straight through to the banks

josh: I never understood re-quotes anyway. what if you went to buy a car and it was selling for $10k. Then when you hand them the money, they come back to you and say "Oh, wait a minute, we told you $10k, but now we want $11k"
josh: Does that make ANY sense?

FXCM£4: ah, it doesnt. a firm would typically requote only if they couldnt clear the trade themselves
FXCM£4: at the price you requested
FXCM£4: here at fxcm, we dont care what price you click on since its not our market
FXCM£4: we show you bank prices, you deal on them, and the banks execute

josh: This includes the MT4 platform?
josh: or just the active trader platform?

FXCM£4: for both
FXCM£4: both platforms execute this same way
josh: awesome. you can email your details to the email that I gave you when i first signed in to chat
FXCM£4: yes will do

josh: Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions.

Chances are that, that is false.

I can tell you that PFG has just recently adopted a bridge that is MUCH more robust than the BTT bridge.

It is very stable and can handle client trades much smoother than BTT and FXCM..

i can tell you its the best mt-4 bridge out there, i use there mt-4 platform and it is stable, they use http://www.integral.com/ for there bridge. very smooth with no problems

Integral Press Release

PFGBEST.com and Integral Partner on Technologies to Give Forex Brokers and Customers Access to Multi-Bank Liquidity

CHICAGO & MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif., Nov 25, 2008 (BUSINESS WIRE) – PFGBEST.com and Integral Development Corp. (Integral) announce their partnership to provide customers with private, branded FX trading technology solutions to access multi-bank liquidity.

Integral's technologies aggregate prices from a number of banks, and provide these to PFGBEST.com retail brokers, dealers and customers through the PFGBEST.com MetaTrader4 (MT4) retail trading platform. This platform is bridged to Integral's FX Grid(R), global Multi-sided Trading Facility (MTF). The solution is designed to help retail brokerage firms and Introducing Brokers (IBs) gain access to forex market liquidity and then to stream the aggregated prices to their respective clients.

The PFGBEST.com MT4 platform has been used by several hundred retail forex brokers and dealers and to meet strong market demand, was recently made more broadly available to PFGBEST.com brokers and clients.

PFGBEST.com President and Chief Operating Officer Russ Wasendorf, Jr., said, "This agreement allows forex brokers to bypass single-source pricing systems in favor of direct market access to multi-bank liquidity from the FX Grid(R). Access to that liquidity has universal appeal to most institutions, funds and professional traders. The retail trading platform supplied by PFGBEST.com - MT4 - is highly configurable to work for a whole host of FX trading models."

Harpal Sandhu, Integral's Chief Executive Officer, added: "Our technology gives PFGBEST.com the ability to aggregate multi-source liquidity, according to business requirements, and stream that liquidity directly into MT4 systems. The solution is delivered as Software-as-a-Service (SaaS), so integration with PFGBEST.com platforms and access for brokers is quick, easy, and accomplished without the need for new IT infrastructure or software."

Deep liquidity and real time pricing are key to the hundreds of brokers that already leverage the PFGBEST.com MT4 trading systems. The single point of access to multi-source liquidity and aggregated pricing configuration offers what Integral describes as the purest form of FX trading.

Integral is aggregator for multiple liquidity providers.

Yes, having more liquidity has a direct correlation to position fills and execution, but a bridge is still necessary.

The bridge they are using is from another technology provider who I know to be very reputable -- Much more so than BTT. Not sure if they went public with it yet, but it is one of the best available...

This is from 2008, when integral provided liquidity and bridge, that was decent.

But, if you can speak with upper management at PFG, they will let you know the details..

what do you mean as far as i know they still have the same set-up?

Once again, integral is providing liquidity to PFG from a number of sources -- The bridge, however, from their liquidity to PFG's MT4 is new and even more improved.

I will say this again like I did in another thread (or was it this one?!) speaking from live trading experience

how can PFG be the better ECN than MB? or at least how can they claim that? no way! they can't even do partial fills! they don't even have 5 digits for precise scalping like I do with EA's. And I don't even believe that MB came to PFG to ask to be an IB when PFG's live spreads are higher than MB's by a pip or 2. I had an live account with PFG and traded for a day and saw a obvious gap on an M15 chart that should have not been there. I closed the account asap. MB is the truth as far as i'm concerned and love it over here. the only other place i want an account is at nord markets or maybe FXCM UK. Nordmarkets does have higher minimums but I like their platform.

oh my EA's can record slippage in and out. and MB doesn't have very much or sometimes none at all

Wow..and you closed your account

Sorry just realised that what I said made no sense. So below is what should have been said.

A genuine ECN broker, is fair. mbTrading, NordMarkets and supposably ATC. But going by the previous post, the jury is out on that one. They are truly NDD.

ECN-style is just a cover for retail market bandit except they have variable spreads all day. These ECN-Style brokers have an in built conflict of interest. Hence they are more likely to use tactics like this. They have (or their hedging partner) do have an DD somewhere in the system.

Fixed spread market bandit have an in built conflict of interest, which is why it normally says it somewhere in their customer agreement. Hence they are more likely to use tactics like this. You will see some of the big retail market bandits (like I*B*F*X) claim that they are a NDD system. It probably true that they are NDD (if their advertising it), but a company that they are related to will have the NDD and deals / fixes spreads on their behalf. They don't own it, but they have a DD somewhere in the system.

This is one of the first few post on this thread. I know it is over a year old but I think it was classic and couldn't help replying to it. Dam John you hit the nail right on the f***** head.

All of the FXCM MT4 and standard 10k accounts are straight through processing. The $25k account mentioned was for the active trader platform which shows depth of market. Active trader has the ability to display raw spreads that we receive from the banks without mark up and a commission is charged instead. Register for a demo and you can see the live prices and liquidity.

But with $25k, you can get the RAW bank spreads with commission terms on the MT4 platform, not just the separate FXCM active trader platform. That's what the guy on the chat mentioned specifically. Remember, we are trying to stay within the MT4 platform. I think many other brokers provide that non-mt4 active trader platform. Most of these threads are ultimately about using metatrader 4 but getting active trader spreads. It seems like (at least fxcm) is willing to allow this. It looks like from a couple of other brokers, they give u breaks based on acct trading volume and acct size.

You actually sign an agreement that you will get the best raw spreads + commissions and not the retail stp spreads via mt4.

And if the lot size terms are still the same (0.1 lot minimum tradable) and you can get true untampered bank spreads, that would be dream come true. and 1:400 leverage? I havent seen a retail broker beat that.

nordmarkets have 0.4 lot minimum to open a trade. they insist their bank cant take any less.

fxopen is insisting 1.0 lots from their banks are MINUMUM they will accept on ECN platform. Although they would love to do 0.1 lots BTW, FxOpen has seperate software to allow you to see level-2 quotes side-by-side with the ECN mt4. http://forum.fxopen.com/showpost.php...1&postcount=80 (check post #1 for ECN demo)

hi ybfjax,

The active trader spreads can be provided on the MT4 platform. You would just need to let the active trader team know that you want to use the MT4 platform instead of the active trader platform.

You could also request 400:1 leverage. It's given on a case by case basis, so you would need to discuss with the active trader department on how to qualify.

Active trader is designed to reward higher volume clients with lower commissions. FXCM is using no dealing desk execution on MT4 and active trader accounts, so our revenue is made primarily from trading volume.

Whenever you mention 0.1 lot, are you referring to a micro lot or a mini lot? I know that MT4 brokers will vary as to what a 0.1 lot is depending on what account type you choose. All FXCM MT4 accounts have a minimum lot size of 0.10 which would be a mini lot.

-Jason

The 400:1 leverage is available to anyone who makes the request, whether active trade or not for accts that are less than $100k. Would there be any reason why the request would be denied?

Can all the active trader markets also be provided on mt4? I understand that there are certain pairs that are on the active trader platform that are NOT currently on the MT4 platform. Can any market not available by standard be made available upon request as long as your banks can stream it?

So then it is true then that 0.1 lot sizes are possible with ECN? I was told by several other brokers that banks dont accept (directly) such small lot sizes. It seems like you are from FXCM. Can you elaborate on how you are able to provide this and other ECNs insist that banks will not accept such a low minimum lot size?

Yes, when I say 0.1 I am referring to a mini lot size ($10,000)

Hi ybfjax,

Yes, I am the FXCM ambassador to the Forex Factory forums. What does that mean? Find out HERE.

There are 9 banks providing pricing to FXCM. All 9 banks are directly offsetting lot sizes as small as a mini lot ($10,000). Out of those 9, only 2 are currently willing to accept micro lots of 1k. That's why micro lot trading at FXCM Micro is through our dealing desk. At this point, execution would be poor if there were 100% NDD micro lot execution. But that's a whole other discussion and you can read more about it here. Back to MT4... All order execution on MT4 is No Dealing Desk.

400:1 leverage requests are reviewed on a case by case basis. From my knowledge, part of that decision is made based upon trading volume (again active trader is meant to reward our high volume clients), but it's really a discussion that someone in the active trader team would be able to better discuss. I will check on the currency pair availability on MT4 for active trader, and get back to you in the morning with more detailed information.

I know this entire thread has centered around the virtual dealer plugin, and I addressed this concern about FXCM's MT4 offering powered by Boston Technologies on a different thread HERE .

-Jason