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Does going to an Ivy League help you become a good trader

  • #41
  • Jun 17, 2009 2:09pm Jun 17, 2009 2:09pm
why do people keep quoting the Bill Gates was a drop out thingy all the time without context. I've heard that sooooo many times.


People will say "well you dropped out (mostly likely cause you couldn't cope with the academics which is normally 90% of the cases) but thats ok dude dont worry about it coz Bill Gates dropped out too and look where he ended up"


The reason Bill Gates dropped out is not because he couldn't complete the course or just couldn't cope with the level of academics, in fact far from he was an outstanding student (I read his biography) the reason he dropped out is because he thought staying till he completed his course would be a waste of his time.

See there's a significant difference between dropping out because you can't cope and dropping out because you can cope very well but believe doing so is a waste of your time in achieving your life's objectives.
  • #42
  • Jun 17, 2009 3:36pm Jun 17, 2009 3:36pm
Quoting Rabid
Old proverb: Give a man a watch, he knows the time. Give a man 2, he never knows for sure.
Thats the difference between someone who thinks outside the box and someone who doesn't. The man with 2 watches isn't given the answer, but his journey to find the right time is worth much more.

Quoting Rabid
Knowledge can be good, but in trading it's less important than your ability to act appropriately. Some cats instinctually chase their tails.
Knowledge can be less important during trading, but its still important. Thats the bottom line. You're ability to act is influenced by the amount of confidence you have. Confidence in your strategy. Confidence on what you know and how you're going to apply it. If you are more knowledgeable about trading, you'll be more confident, throughout the entire trade. Knowledge is implemented in acting properly in trading and your trading plan.

Quoting Rabid
You missed my point. And Bill Gates dropped out.
The bottom line is Bill Gates went to an Ivy League and it helped him. He dropped out because he knew that he had gotten enough experience from his time at Harvard.

Quoting Rabid
A person with a professional degree from a prestigious university does not need to trade for a living. Sure, some will make it (mostly after the fact), but most people that come from that background will not survive trading on the sheer fact that they have better options for the same income. Why take the stress?
Trading has a huge potential. A potential thats much larger than doctors or even the highest paying jobs in the world. Are you suggesting that holding a knife above someone, in the attempt to save their life isn't stressful? All jobs come with stress. It's not like trading is the most stressful job.

Quoting Rabid
I'd expect an investor to go with someone that already has a good track record. Fancy paper is not a qualification worth giving money to on blind faith. It's a common mistake.
Thats obvious. But if you're an investor and you get two students, one from an Ivy League school like Harvard or one from a non Ivy League school. Who will you choose?

Quoting Rabid
Financial institutions (large or small) will inherently keep people based on performance. Your resume can be crap, just bring in money. History is littered with examples of ppl with little to no education doing well in this industry. If you take a trip to the pits, you will not find many ivy league diplomas.
That statement contradicts itself. A resume is your performance in written form. We're talking about two students, one from Ivy and one that isn't. Who would the institution choose. History is littered with people with little or no education doing well, its also filled with people who have gotten lots of education and done well...Going to the pits doesn't translate into a good trader.


Quoting Rabid
The right kind of knowledge, applied well, can lead to power. Application is everything.
Agreed
  • #43
  • Jun 17, 2009 6:09pm Jun 17, 2009 6:09pm
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The man with 2 watches isn't given the answer, but his journey to find the right time is worth much more.

Journey means squat in a meritocracy. And seriously, too much conflicting information gives no value at all. That's a common problem as an executive.

Quote
Knowledge can be less important during trading, but its still important. Thats the bottom line.

Experience, yes. Academic knowledge? Not really. How long have you been trading for?

Quote
The bottom line is Bill Gates went to an Ivy League and it helped him. He dropped out because he knew that he had gotten enough experience from his time at Harvard.

Uhm, no. He dropped out because it wasn't helping him. The school was holding him back. Proof that what makes someone good comes from some place deeper than their education.

Quote
Trading has a huge potential. A potential thats much larger than doctors or even the highest paying jobs in the world. Are you suggesting that holding a knife above someone, in the attempt to save their life isn't stressful? All jobs come with stress. It's not like trading is the most stressful job.

How long have you been trading again?

And yes "doctor" can be a stressful job, but most doctors are not surgeons. Proving yet again that education from even the most prestigious universities cannot give you an ability you fundamentally lack. Yet high numbers still wash out during residency.

Quote
That statement contradicts itself. A resume is your performance in written form.

No. Education is not performance.

Let me give you an example. I've worked as a hiring manager, once to build a small team of sales people. Instead of taking resumes and blah blah, I held a sales contest. Applicants would have 1 month to sell as much of the lower end product line (no real required training) as they could, on a commission-only basis. Only people with at least 2 sales would get interviewed.

We had a guy that came in, high school diploma, had worked as a manager at Burger King then on to a sales job, where he'd been working commission-only (we were offering base and benefits too) for nearly 8 years. He came in with 5 completed orders. He was not the kind of person you'd hire based on resume alone, but Mike went on to be one of our top earners.

I've considered what I would do if I ever wanted to run a prop firm. I doubt I ever will, it's not my ambition, but it's fun to muse. I suspect I would never hire someone that hadn't at least managed to earn a set return on a demo account before coming in. Performance comes first, resumes are full of garbage.

Quote
Going to the pits doesn't translate into a good trader.

Of course it does. Take a survey of people that have been traders for at least 10 years. If you can survive down there as a trader, you're a good trader. If you can survive in this business anywhere for 10 years then you're good at it.

Quote
its also filled with people who have gotten lots of education and done well...

So now you're agreeing with me. The question at hand, 3 pages ago, was would a pedigree education provide a superior edge as a trader? The answer is clearly no.

This has nothing to do with an institution. Most traders are not institutional traders. And most institutional traders wipe out, just as non-institutional traders do. Whether you succeed as a trader has nothing to do with any institution other than yourself.

If your group comparison is against bums on the street, sure. But if you're comparing intelligent and aggressive people then the rate of success between ivy league and non ivy league will be comparable, perhaps identical. For every advantage gained, there's a balancing loss. Making it in this field is always a 2nd or 3rd deviation event regardless of pedigree.

If this is really the "field" you want to pursue, then the only thing that matters is experience as a trader.
  • #44
  • Jun 17, 2009 7:24pm Jun 17, 2009 7:24pm

Quoting Rabid
Journey means squat in a meritocracy. And seriously, too much conflicting information gives no value at all. That's a common problem as an executive.



Journey = the lessons that you've learned, whether you learn them directly or indirectly and the knowledge you use to make future decisions. It does mean something in meritocracy. It's only too much knowledge until someone filters it out. If you have the skills to filter it out, no matter what profession you go into, filtering out the bad and retaining the good helps.

Quoting Rabid
Experience, yes. Academic knowledge? Not really.

If you look at the roots of academic knowledge. The knowledge is retained through time management, confidence and passion. You're looking at the surface of the situation. Yes sloping functions or calculus functions will not help in forex. However, when you are learning these concepts, you make mistakes, you develop quick ways to correct your mistakes and not continuously focusing on a bad habit.

Quoting Rabid
How long have you been trading for?

I've been trading for less then a year, 9 months exactly. Go ahead make your comments, please I invite you to cause I know you're getting them ready. Along with that let me know how long you're been trading, and your profits.

Quoting Rabid
Uhm, no. He dropped out because it wasn't helping him. The school was holding him back. Proof that what makes someone good comes from some place deeper than their education.


Uhm yes. He dropped out because he believed that he had already received enough direction to pursue his dreams, not because it hadn't helped him. He stated this in his documentary, I suggest you watch it before making assumptions.


Quoting Rabid
No. Education is not performance.

Let me give you an example. I've worked as a hiring manager, once to build a small team of sales people. Instead of taking resumes and blah blah, I held a sales contest. Applicants would have 1 month to sell as much of the lower end product line (no real required training) as they could, on a commission-only basis. Only people with at least 2 sales would get interviewed.

We had a guy that came in, high school diploma, had worked as a manager at Burger King then on to a sales job, where he'd been working commission-only...



First of all, you're experiences don't account for the world. Telling your own “story” is like inviting the greatest amount of bias into the situation. Not to mention the weak argument it creates. I'm giving you a well recognized example. There is a reason why people work hard to build up their resumes. The most successful companies choose these individuals and put them under training. The people with no experience will very seldom receive the chance to show their potential. There is a reason why people strive for that education. The Ivy League students will definitely receive more guidance by professional forex investors once they have been hired.

Quoting Rabid
Of course it does. Take a survey of people that have been traders for at least 10 years. If you can survive down there as a trader, you're a good trader. If you can survive in this business anywhere for 10 years then you're good at it.


Is that right? So trading forex for 20 years and sitting at break even makes you a good trader. I dont know if you're talking about you're own experiences but last I heard the success is in the long term profits.

Quoting Rabid
Whether you succeed as a trader has nothing to do with any institution other than yourself.



If you are given the chance to join an institution and to be professional coached then it will give you an advantage. If people knew that some appealing indicators repaint, they would be better off than someone who jumps into the market using such indicators.

Quoting Rabid
If your group comparison is against bums on the street, sure. But if you're comparing intelligent and aggressive people then the rate of success between ivy league and non ivy league will be comparable, perhaps identical. For every advantage gained, there's a balancing loss. Making it in this field is always a 2nd or 3rd deviation event regardless of pedigree.

Opportunity cost is the term you're referring to. Its not enough to just say that well you lose some you gain some, so therefore its all the same. There's nothing concrete about what you said.

Quoting Rabid
If this is really the "field" you want to pursue, then the only thing that matters is experience as a trader.



Long term profits is what matters. You often hear that 95% of forex traders fail. It's true. It's because most of these traders go off in tangents. An Ivy League student in the real world, not in your hiring manager days, is more appealing to professional forex investors or any investor in that case. Thats a fact, not only in trading but in banking, medical studies, real estate...

  • #45
  • Jun 17, 2009 9:39pm Jun 17, 2009 9:39pm
Quote
It does mean something in meritocracy.

I'm sorry, it just doesn't.

Quote
The knowledge is retained through time management, confidence and passion.

All of which exist everywhere.

Quote
Go ahead make your comments

I wasn't going to comment, what I wanted to do was turn your focus onto your own perspective.

Quote
He stated this in his documentary, I suggest you watch it before making assumptions.

You think he's going to badmouth a major institution? Of course not. But actions speak louder than words, he dropped out. Why? Because he obviously felt he could do better with his time. If he hadn't felt that way he would not have dropped out. Facts speak for themselves.

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I'm giving you a well recognized example.

No, you're giving me your bias.

Quote
First of all, you're experiences don't account for the world. Telling your own “story” is like inviting the greatest amount of bias into the situation.

I'm giving you experience from the real world. Experience that's made me a 7 figure earner. Take what you want from it.

Quote
There is a reason why people strive for that education.

Of course, but to say that it provides an edge as a trader is nonsense. That's our benchmark here.

Quote
Is that right? So trading forex for 20 years and sitting at break even makes you a good trader. I dont know if you're talking about you're own experiences but last I heard the success is in the long term profits.

Which is why I said take a trip to the pits. There's a cost associated with being there, nobody could afford to be there for a decade if they weren't profitable. Last I checked, everyone needs to eat.

Quote
If you are given the chance to join an institution and to be professional coached then it will give you an advantage. If people knew that some appealing indicators repaint, they would be better off than someone who jumps into the market using such indicators.

You ever been to a prop floor? Or spent time in a financial institution? Don't expect a lot of hands-on coaching.

As for indicators, come on. We're comparing colleges and you're talking kindergarten. Try, oh... CAPM sound great to your average MBA student, but applying it to actual trading is a challenge all it's own.

Quote
Opportunity cost is the term you're referring to. Its not enough to just say that well you lose some you gain some, so therefore its all the same. There's nothing concrete about what you said.

No, I'm not talking about opportunity cost. If I was, I'd have said that. Your argument is that a pedigree education provides an edge above other intelligent college grads in the field of trading.

My argument is no, it does not. It provides no advantage, and that ivy league grads will have to go thru the same challenges and the same failures as anyone else. The odds of surviving to the 10 year mark, for example, are the same across the board. It could even be argued that the odds of same are lower, as there are better and less-stressful alternatives.

I would rather pick someone further along that path of failure, regardless of education, as I do not believe conventional filters apply in merit-based occupations. That, in short, has been my experience.

Theory is theory. The real world, on the other hand, is not.

Quote
Long term profits is what matters. You often hear that 95% of forex traders fail. It's true. It's because most of these traders go off in tangents. An Ivy League student in the real world, not in your hiring manager days, is more appealing to professional forex investors or any investor in that case. Thats a fact, not only in trading but in banking, medical studies, real estate...

Dude...

Professional forex investor? Really? Come on. Can you identify what's wrong with that statement?

Investors don't pick traders. Investors invest in firms with an established track record. Those firms then hire potential traders, most of whom fail miserably when the next bear market comes along. No investor is going to spend their time training traders unless they're going to run a prop firm.
  • #46
  • Jun 17, 2009 10:33pm Jun 17, 2009 10:33pm
Quoting Rabid
I'm sorry, it just doesn't.



All of which exist everywhere.



I wasn't going to comment, what I wanted to do was turn your focus onto your own perspective.



You think he's going to badmouth a major institution? Of course not. But actions speak louder than words, he dropped out. Why? Because he obviously felt he could do better with his time. If he hadn't felt that way he would not have dropped out. Facts speak for themselves.



No, you're giving me your bias.



I'm giving you experience from the real world. Experience that's made me a 7 figure...
I think we could continue our debate endlessly. I feel like im talking to a brick wall in a sense and im sure you also feel the same way=P. But hey, thats life, wouldn't be interesting with just one opinion. Anyways, good luck in trading and perhaps our opinions clash on a future thread.

-Ace284
  • #47
  • Jun 17, 2009 11:44pm Jun 17, 2009 11:44pm
Quote
Anyways, good luck in trading and perhaps our opinions clash on a future thread.

Hehe. You too.
  • #48
  • Jun 18, 2009 10:32am Jun 18, 2009 10:32am
first of all, i was gonna post a big long book arguing against aces, but rabid did it for me so thanks dude!

secondly, i also want to point out a big difference in the success of ivy-league alumni professional traders, and regular joe individual traders. when an reg-joe trader funds an account, he's doing it with his own money. this drives him to succeed more. if he loses, his family loses. when a ivy-pro trader trades, he's using house money all the way through.

also, when a reg-joe trader loses his account, he's done. that money is gone, and the only way to open a new account and start trading again is to use more of his own money, possibly delving into savings or whatever. when a ivy-pro trader loses his money, the bank hands him more. thats just how it works. i've seen it happen dozens of times. bill from harvard loses a 500K account, so his boss gives him another 500K account and says do better next time. this will happen over and over and over. thats how ivy leaguers learn how to trade. reg-joe traders dont have that luxury. they cant magically get another $10,000 account. this is what gives the ivy-pro his advantage. not his education, not his connections, and certainly not his experience. just the fact that when he loses, it's as if it never happened.

another thing to note, a mojority of the people in the pit are NOT the ivy-pro style traders. they are, however, mostly reg-joe traders. granted, there will be traders in the pit that come from places like Goldman or Deustche or whatever, but most of those guys are people who work for FCMs or brokers or private institutions, or even just for themselves. if the ivy-pro trader was stuck in the pit, he be freaking devoured in a heartbeat. that's why they put them in trading rooms instead of the pit. they just dont have the inherrent aggression and determination that a guy (or girl) fighting for his life will have. it just doesnt work that way.
  • #49
  • Jul 11, 2009 12:42am Jul 11, 2009 12:42am
Quoting blacksun1
...that's why they put them in trading rooms instead of the pit. they just dont have the inherrent aggression and determination that a guy (or girl) fighting for his life will have. it just doesnt work that way.
I doubt I'll ever hear this said better than you just did...

At the end of the day, sometimes that's all you got left.
FUBAR...
  • #50
  • Jul 11, 2009 6:06am Jul 11, 2009 6:06am
Quoting Rabid

Not in my experience. I do not see how spending 6 years in a quiet (mostly) Massachusetts neighborhood reading about the world in books equates to a real exposure gained by visiting the same areas.

Go join the peace corp, spend 18 months building irrigation systems in Africa and dodging local warlord gunfire and tell me ivy league programs are harder. Of course once you do, trading... not all that taxing.
Looking at the rich and sucessful people around today, very few will credit their sucess to attending the Harvards /Ivy league schools of this world.
Infact those Ivy league and Harvard trained have only caused us more problems and troubles, because we had too much confidence in their special educational status and allowed them make decisions and policies for us. LOOK AT WHERE WE ARE TODAY.

Ranging from the the musicians, footballers/sportsmen and succesful actors(50 Cents, David Beckham etc). Only a very few of them attended such "big" schools. But their sucess can be attributed to their individual hunger and drive to suceed even in the midst of numerous obstacles.( NO IVY LEAGUE SCHOOL IS GOING TO TEACH OR GIVE YOU THAT DRIVE OR HUNGER)

Most of those privileged students , already have rich and sucessful parents whose successes cannot be directly linked to any of such big schools.

I quite agree that attending one of such schools gives you a good head start in life, but in trading, it is a different ball game.

It has little to do with ur level of intelligence or education, Else, one of these geeks should have been able to create a surefire system(HOLY GRAIL) to tame the markets.

The advantage those Ivy graduates working in big hedge funds and banks is that they have access to huge capital (pooled funds) and other facilties, such that the smallest of moves can give them huge returns, which we use as a yardstick to measure their success . Because if you give a regular Joe trader the same facilities the Havard trained has, you can be sure our regular joe will perfom better.

If our harvard trained traders/executives were that good, then I don't think the economy would be in shambles as it is today. They had access to monies that were not theirs and took wrong decisions, lost other peoples money and still get bonuses for their losses.

Why ? They had too much confidence on their educational background, decision making process and analysis, such that they became too blind to see even when they were dead wrong.

A street-wise and experienced trader could have done better, when things start going south, he would have gotten that "gut instinct" feeling because he's been there before, and wouldn't be too proud to admit that he was wrong and change his strategy/approach.
Thanks.

GET RICH OR DIE TRYING.
  • #51
  • Jul 11, 2009 7:26am Jul 11, 2009 7:26am
I was offered a scholarship from Harvard, but I declined it. The reason was simple: I didn't need Harvard to become a successful trader, but Harvard definitely needs me or similar intelligent people to keep its image. Remember, Harvard and all private institutions are BUSINESSES. They want your money. I have a friend who graduated from Stanford. He told me that they will offer admissions to smart kids because they have a better chance of succeeding and DONATING to the university. If you don't believe me, check the endowments of some of these schools.

The only thing these schools make you better at is being a prick.
And btw, they suck at trading.
  • #52
  • Jul 11, 2009 11:19pm Jul 11, 2009 11:19pm
But think of all the fun you missed... you could have pulled the professors' chains anytime you wanted not to mention the students'.

And think of the contacts you missed. You'll never know who you could have rubbed elbows with.

You didn't need anything from them nor did you need to prove yourself. It would have been nothing but fun.
  • #53
  • Jan 31, 2010 9:59am Jan 31, 2010 9:59am
Oh brother, this thread really made me laugh. I knew a bunch of people who went to Ivy League schools, I couldn't imagine any of them having careers on Wall Street. Most of them were either pre-med types or they majored in some totally useless field within the social sciences. I'll bet that not a single one of them was capable of flipping burgers at McDonalds even if someone showed them. Only one of the people I knew has a career in investing on Wall Street (if you can even call it Wall Street, he lives in NYC but I'm not sure he works in/on "Wall Street"), and he's not a trader either.
  • #54
  • Last Post: Jan 30, 2018 2:26pm Jan 30, 2018 2:26pm
Does going to an Ivy League help you become a good trader??

NOPE, it does not. I have colleagues who went to Ivy league schools - guess what? They don't know anymore than I do.

That said, if you go to a big "house" like Goldman Sachs, they usually only take Ivy Leaguers - big Eastern companies and universities have a lot of academic "in-breeding".
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