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Does going to an Ivy League help you become a good trader

  • #21
  • Jun 15, 2009 9:30pm Jun 15, 2009 9:30pm
last time i checked, no universities had courses that teach people how 2 trade. sure, they teach people how 2 invest. but they r 2 totally different things.

having a ivy league cert just guarantees u a high paying job. but still doesn't guarantee success. many ivy league graduates hold important positions. i'm sure there r ivy league people at ltcm, enron, aig, n at the fed.

but who gave us this latest crisis which some people don't even know came about?? who invented those derivatives that had a big part 2 play in this crisis? c what's happening 2 america. i'm sure the u.s goverment has many ivy leagues in their midst.

if u think ivy league graduates will make good traders. based on their good education n intelligence. then we might as well go 2 mensa n find the 2 year old girl who had a iq of 160 2 trade 4 us.
  • #22
  • Jun 15, 2009 9:53pm Jun 15, 2009 9:53pm
If I'm not mistaken, Buffett didnt study at an ivy league place until AFTER he was rich. I think Soros has a similar story????? Alot of the successful people got rich before studying, just incase something were to happen and also to make contacts.

In trading, you will find that education means very little, its got alot to do with common sense patience etc.

Education will only give you the opportunities, not the talent, to become a successful trader in the industry. However anyone can become successful without the education, on their own.
  • #23
  • Jun 15, 2009 10:27pm Jun 15, 2009 10:27pm
...and he made $1,000 by the time he was fifteen...and this was
before the Great Depression, when $1,000 was a lot of money.

Also, how many traders got honorary degrees from the Ivy League
after they made their money? They could buy a degree with an
honorarium (read:donation) to their local business school.

I don't believe that going to the right uni is going to transform you
into an arch-trader; for some of these people, going to uni was
just a formality. They had the instinct before they started their
studies...probably before they finished high school.

(What's more, if they're taking conventional statistics courses and
trading according to Gaussian principles (i.e., the Bell Curve), then
they're wasting their time studying models that don't accommodate the
randomness of the markets, according to Nassim Nicholas Taleb.)

If you want to end up in a place like this
in this lifetime,
then determination is more important than accolades from Harvard.
HELL IS EMPTY, ALL THE DEVILS ARE HERE. -- Shakespeare
  • #24
  • Jun 15, 2009 11:18pm Jun 15, 2009 11:18pm
The atmosphere at Ivy League schools is different as compared to the normal stream. If you think about it logically, people are influenced by their surroundings. The level of education is generally higher in the Ivy League which means that students who have the passion to learn at that level strive to attend these schools.

Generally speaking, going to an Ivy League will develop your learning capabilities more because you're exposed to a better educational environment. Not to mention, companies look to these schools first to hire workers in fields such as engineering, computer science, law and even professional trading.

Even with something as basic as research, Ivy League students tend to be better because they practice it more. So they have an advantage when searching the web for what forex strategies are reliable and the ones that aren't.

Some of you might argue the point that some Ivy League schools don't teach forex trading, or money management, but skills like time management and pattern recognition are indirectly implemented into the system which again gives them an advantage.

Thats not to say that only Ivy League students are good traders but, I think they do have an advantage.

Some also said that you only need common sense and patience. What exactly does common sense mean? Something thats common to one man may seem extremely difficult for others to comprehend.

No one walks into the world of forex knowing everything. It's people who can adapt to the market that are successful. Of course adapting to something does take skill and like I said before people who have had more exposure and can filter out the bad and retain the good should do better in trading.
  • #25
  • Jun 15, 2009 11:53pm Jun 15, 2009 11:53pm
Quote
Generally speaking, going to an Ivy League will develop your learning capabilities more because you're exposed to a better educational environment. Not to mention, companies look to these schools first to hire workers in fields such as engineering, computer science, law and even professional trading.

From my experience this is only true of technical programs. It is not true of general study, business or even law.

Trading is a lesson in patience. Schools cannot teach that.
  • #26
  • Jun 16, 2009 12:12am Jun 16, 2009 12:12am
Quoting Rabid
From my experience this is only true of technical programs....

Did you go to an Ivy League Rabid?
  • #27
  • Jun 16, 2009 5:42am Jun 16, 2009 5:42am
Quoted text in red

The atmosphere at Ivy League schools is different as compared to the normal stream. If you think about it logically, people are influenced by their surroundings. The level of education is generally higher in the Ivy League which means that students who have the passion to learn at that level strive to attend these schools.

That's true. However, trading does not only require book smarts, it requires street smarts. No book can give you street smarts, only experience can. Besides, given how the economy is changing, I suspect that the models these students are receiving now are going to be obsolete if they aren't obsolete already by the time they graduate.

Generally speaking, going to an Ivy League will develop your learning capabilities more because you're exposed to a better educational environment. Not to mention, companies look to these schools first to hire workers in fields such as engineering, computer science, law and even professional trading.

Does it develop your ability to learn? Or does an Ivy League school get you better contacts? I suggest you take a few continuing education courses at any Ivy League School (I have 16 credits from Harvard so far thanks to that continuing education program), and you'll find that the content is not that different.

Even with something as basic as research, Ivy League students tend to be better because they practice it more. So they have an advantage when searching the web for what forex strategies are reliable and the ones that aren't.

Unlike the vast majority of people here, professional traders rarely use these sorts of indicators when trading. Most use their intuition, experience, and valuation models. Not a series of indicators crossing, neural networks (although that's changing), or complex chart patterns. As for the research arm, yes you have a point, but research at the institutional level is beyond what you can find on the internet. You also need to call people and basically bully information out of them. Remember what Gordon Gekko said:

The one most valuable commodity is information.

Some of you might argue the point that some Ivy League schools don't teach forex trading, or money management, but skills like time management and pattern recognition are indirectly implemented into the system which again gives them an advantage.

Time management is a skill required to survive, pattern recognition less so. There is of course no specific class on how to do either, but you're right in the sense that these are necessary skills for survival.

Thats not to say that only Ivy League students are good traders but, I think they do have an advantage.

Your opinion. I personally disagree.

Some also said that you only need common sense and patience. What exactly does common sense mean? Something thats common to one man may seem extremely difficult for others to comprehend.

Common sense: What would you tell someone else to do?

No one walks into the world of forex knowing everything. It's people who can adapt to the market that are successful. Of course adapting to something does take skill and like I said before people who have had more exposure and can filter out the bad and retain the good should do better in trading.

But do they? There's also this element of paralysis of analysis. That is, people who take too long to make a decision. In the world of trading...

It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, what matters is what you do when you are wrong.
--Ronald Raygun
  • #28
  • Jun 16, 2009 8:25am Jun 16, 2009 8:25am
Going to an Ivy League school does not make you smart. You're going to an Ivy League school because you are smart. Unless of course your name is George Bush or any other child whose daddy's name got him accepted.

That small percentage aside, Ivy League schools simply continue the processes that their students have already begun, but in a much nicer atmosphere on a campus that is better equipped and stocked than most.

The fact that virtually no undergrad courses are fully taught by the professors of Harvard, but instead are taught by teaching assistants (read: indentured servants) should tell you something.

As to whether it makes you a better trader is open to debate. A huge factor in successful trading is humility and taking responsibility for everything, especially mistakes and losses.

Look at just how well that has been done over the past 1.5 years by all the Ivy League graduates of Bear Stearns, Lehman Bros, etc.

Ivy League schools breed arrogance, contempt, a sense of infallibility, and entitlement. I just don't see how those factors make one a better trader.
  • #29
  • Jun 16, 2009 9:13am Jun 16, 2009 9:13am
Quoting Ronald Raygun
Quoted text in red
[color=Red]
The atmosphere at Ivy League schools is different as compared to the normal stream. If you think about it logically, people are influenced by their surroundings. The level of education is generally higher in the Ivy League which means that students who have the passion to learn at that level strive to attend these schools.

[color=Black]That's true. However, trading does not only require book smarts, it requires street smarts. No book can give you street smarts, only experience can. Besides, given how the economy...
well, I didnt read the whole of what Roland wrote (would prefer an executive summary ), but that one line i guess that sums it all is, you need to have inside information (or just credible information), and this is true for ANY country. Some need to goto some Ivy League school to get inside the inner circle, or some by luck or effort happen to land inside it. I remember Gekko (the character from the movie "Wall Street") saying

"If you are not inside, you are outside".

You can't short 12 billion$s just on some indi or intution, but you can short 12 million or so on an indi for sure! 12 Billion is a bit too much for that

my 2 cents...
If it floats, flies, or f%^ks, rent it, it's cheaper.
  • #30
  • Jun 16, 2009 9:32am Jun 16, 2009 9:32am
I think you can learn to be a good trader by buying a few books and reading some forums and watching your market, then thinking a lot, and finally putting what you've discovered into practice. Lets face it most of you will never be able to network with the guys in Wall Street, but doesn't mean you cant get stinking rich trading.
Economists have forecast 9 out of the last 5 recessions
  • #31
  • Jun 16, 2009 11:25am Jun 16, 2009 11:25am
this topic just making no sense.

If you can get the offer from ivy, will you instead go to public school?

Better network, better brand,better opportunity after graduation, etcetc, you name it. Of course these don't guarantee you a good trader, but it give you a better setup.


regads,
Mike
  • #32
  • Jun 16, 2009 12:10pm Jun 16, 2009 12:10pm
Quoting Zkf
this topic just making no sense.

If you can get the offer from ivy, will you instead go to public school?

Better network, better brand,better opportunity after graduation, etcetc, you name it. Of course these don't guarantee you a good trader, but it give you a better setup.


regads,
Mike
the point of the thread is that first off, going to an ivy league doesnt automatically make you a good trader, and that many people who would be good traders dont go to an ivy league school and therefore dont get the cool trading jobs.

even if you get accepted to an ivy league school, most people dont have the money or cant get a scholarship. so it's not like you can just go if they say yes. you either have to be a genius to get the scholarship (in which case you wouldnt be looking for a trading job anyways) or you would have to be very privileged, and most people aren't.
  • #33
  • Jun 16, 2009 7:21pm Jun 16, 2009 7:21pm
Quoting Ronald Raygun
That's true. However, trading does not only require book smarts, it requires street smarts. No book can give you street smarts, only experience can. Besides, given how the economy is changing, I suspect that the models these students are receiving now are going to be obsolete if they aren't obsolete already by the time they graduate.


You're right, trading does require street smarts. Things such as knowing when to call it a day, getting emotionally prepared or accepting losses are not directly taught in books. When I said people are influenced by their surroundings, I didn't just mean that Ivy League students are only influenced by books. They are influenced by the level of conversation in a classroom and are exposed to different methods of problem solving. Economic models do change. By either way these models will change for every student, Ivy League or not. Its understanding the concepts behind the models and applying that knowledge into forex. If you think about it, Economic ideas change all the time but the basic models are always the foundation. The basic supply and demand model has held strong through the Great Depression and various recessions since. Economic downturn doesn't suggest that models become obsolete, but rather tweaked. I say this because I've studied Economics. Even if something becomes obsolete, it doesn't mean that the knowledge gained from it is useless.


Quoting Ronald Raygun
Does it develop your ability to learn? Or does an Ivy League school get you better contacts? I suggest you take a few continuing education courses at any Ivy League School (I have 16 credits from Harvard so far thanks to that continuing education program), and you'll find that the content is not that different.
It does develop your ability to learn because you are faced with more challenges. More assignments. Harder assignments to some degree. You said that the content is not that different. But it is different, again to some degree. Better contacts = more chances to learn. That a basic idea of society, and it is also the reason many Ivy League graduates become well known successful investors.

Quoting Ronald Raygun
Unlike the vast majority of people here, professional traders rarely use these sorts of indicators when trading. Most use their intuition, experience, and valuation models. Not a series of indicators crossing, neural networks (although that's changing), or complex chart patterns. As for the research arm, yes you have a point, but research at the institutional level is beyond what you can find on the internet. You also need to call people and basically bully information out of them.
Forex strategies do not just mean moving averages and other indicators. Strategies in Forex include fundamentals and models. Why go through bullying information out of people when you already have connections?
Quoting Ronald Raygun
Time management is a skill required to survive, pattern recognition less so. There is of course no specific class on how to do either, but you're right in the sense that these are necessary skills for survival.
In an Ivy League school, a student will generally receive harder tasks as compared to students in the normal stream. Time management is a skill required to survive however, it is a skill that can be developed. Consider this, you give Student A 3 assignments and Student B 2 assignments. For simplicity, each assignment will take the same amount of time to complete and there is a set time limit. Also both students will complete the assignments no matter what. A major part of forex, is managing time and planning your time. Student A will clearly develop a better sense of organization, they will be able to handle pressure better after a year of getting use to, and they will develop a better sense of knowing when to do what.



Quoting Ronald Raygun
Your opinion. I personally disagree.
We'll agree to disagree.

Trading currencies is by no means easy for anyone. The trading aspect is a multi layered problem. The successful traders are the ones who have been exposed to the live markets and ones that have developed different problem solving skills. Approaching a problem from different angles will always be better than the one sided approach. Now on average, an Ivy League student will be exposed to more than a non Ivy League student which is why they will have an advantage to some degree.
  • #34
  • Jun 16, 2009 7:39pm Jun 16, 2009 7:39pm
IMO, for what it is worth, Trading is about aquiring knowledge and then using that knowledge or Information in a way that you can profit from.

So If Ivy league means the opportunity to make contacts with people who may have unique insights or valuable Information regarding a market you are trading in, it cant be anything but a good thing.

Alot of conversation on the factory about 'this person would be a good trader -- that person wouldnt', but isnt It all dependant on the quality of the information your trading decisions are based on?....And in fact has very little to do with the person making the trade.
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #35
  • Jun 16, 2009 7:49pm Jun 16, 2009 7:49pm
Quote
Economic downturn doesn't suggest that models become obsolete, but rather tweaked.
Sometimes tho it does. When the recession hit in the 80s a lot of volatility and risk models were shot to hell. Stochastic models have serious drawbacks that can't be fully understood without practical experience.

Quote
Even if something becomes obsolete, it doesn't mean that the knowledge gained from it is useless.
Of course. The problem is one of flexibility. An agile person will adjust regardless of education. But education does not always teach agility.

Quote
In an Ivy League school, a student will generally receive harder tasks as compared to students in the normal stream.
Do you really believe that? I've known ivy league law students that couldn't debate their way out of a paper bag. I knew a guy that was a very good student, graduated with honors, but froze up in court. He stopped doing trials and went into research. Does he know his stuff? Technically. Was he well-prepared? No.

There are numerous schools in the US alone that have programs harder than an Ivy league one. The power of the degree is in it's connections, not it's education. Of course those connections bring money, which means influence and name recognition. But name recognition and skill are not the same thing.

Quote
Now on average, an Ivy League student will be exposed to more than a non Ivy League student which is why they will have an advantage to some degree.
Not in my experience. I do not see how spending 6 years in a quiet (mostly) Massachusetts neighborhood reading about the world in books equates to a real exposure gained by visiting the same areas.

Go join the peace corp, spend 18 months building irrigation systems in Africa and dodging local warlord gunfire and tell me ivy league programs are harder. Of course once you do, trading... not all that taxing.
  • #36
  • Jun 16, 2009 8:04pm Jun 16, 2009 8:04pm
Quoting mbqb11
My older brother and younger brother are both ivy league. Older bro is Dartmouth undergrad and Harvard Law. Younger bro is Dartmouth undergrad.

Guess who the trader in the family is.
LOL! C'mon, Mike. With a family like that, we all know that "brains" are in the family. You're just as smart, if not more so, than they are, I'm sure.
  • #37
  • Jun 16, 2009 8:37pm Jun 16, 2009 8:37pm
Quoting Rabid
Sometimes tho it does. When the recession hit in the 80s a lot of volatility and risk models were shot to hell. Stochastic models have serious drawbacks that can't be fully understood without practical experience.
You make good point, but in that case both the Ivy League student and the non Ivy League student will have to apply their knowledge for understanding why the models were shot to hell. The Ivy League student will know a bit more about why it happened because of their background in education.

Quoting Rabid
Of course. The problem is one of flexibility. An agile person will adjust regardless of education. But education does not always teach agility.
You're right, an agile person will be able to adjust quicker. Someone who's more educated will probably take longer to adjust. I think that its better to question and apply your knowledge before quickly switching modes. The educated person will know why they had to change their approach which in the long term is more important.

Quoting Rabid
Do you really believe that? I've known ivy league law students that couldn't debate their way out of a paper bag. I knew a guy that was a very good student, graduated with honors, but froze up in court. He stopped doing trials and went into research. Does he know his stuff? Technically. Was he well-prepared? No.
With all fairness, a few Ivy League students can't represent entire school's reputation. I've known non Ivy League students who've also froze up and had no idea what they were saying. That doesn't mean non Ivy League students can't debate. Lets say that Student A goes to an Ivy League school and Student B doesn't. They're also identical but the Ivy League student will know a bit more. So in that aspect he's got a lead.

There are numerous schools in the US alone that have programs harder than an Ivy league one. The power of the degree is in it's connections, not it's education. Of course those connections bring money, which means influence and name recognition. But name recognition and skill are not the same thing.

Quoting Rabid
Not in my experience. I do not see how spending 6 years in a quiet (mostly) Massachusetts neighborhood reading about the world in books equates to a real exposure gained by visiting the same areas.

Go join the peace corp, spend 18 months building irrigation systems in Africa and dodging local warlord gunfire and tell me ivy league programs are harder. Of course once you do, trading... not all that taxing.
I mean more exposure intellectually and the people that you're around. Goes a long way in building skills for forex.


Some people might feel offended because I lean towards the Ivy League students having an advantage because they themselves haven't attended these institutions. Let me tell you, I have not attend Ivy League schools either because I do not live in the U.S. Canada is the way to go!
But I have read about Ivy League schools which is where I base my arguments from.
  • #38
  • Jun 16, 2009 10:56pm Jun 16, 2009 10:56pm
Quote
The Ivy League student will know a bit more about why it happened because of their background in education.
I wouldn't assume that.

Quote
They're also identical but the Ivy League student will know a bit more. So in that aspect he's got a lead.
1. I don't think he/she will know more.

2. I don't think knowing more always translates into a lead. Or even often. With the exception of technical degrees. A guy with a doctorate in math from MIT is going to be better equipped to solve a math problem than a guy with a bachelors degree from Arizona state. Technical degrees are a separate case.

Quote
I mean more exposure intellectually and the people that you're around. Goes a long way in building skills for forex.
Old joke: The ivy league is "the cream of society" ... rich and thick.

I'd rather hire ppl that are smart and hungry, they go further. Give me some scrawny kid from a bad neighborhood that's willing to work 14 hours a day. Someone that needs it. Never count those guys out, they're the ones that really change the world. They're willing to kill to make it happen. Bet on need.

Edge isn't what you know, it's what you're willing to do and how hungry you are while doing it.
  • #39
  • Jun 17, 2009 10:39am Jun 17, 2009 10:39am
Quoting Rabid
I wouldn't assume that.

1. I don't think he/she will know more.
lol good arguements

Quoting Rabid
I don't think knowing more always translates into a lead. Or even often.
I think someone who knows more about something, is better equipped to solve problems. With forex, people say that simplicity is the hardest thing to grasp. And that cramming your head with information will only lead you in circles. I'd rather be crammed with information, and then work on filtering it out instead of starting with some information. Sure in the short term, the guy who just learned something will be better at forex, but in the long run the guy who filters out the bad will know what to expect when a difficult situation arises in the future. Markets are tricky and like I said before attacking the problem through different angles is better than a one minded approach.

Quoting Rabid
I'd rather hire ppl that are smart and hungry, they go further. Give me some scrawny kid from a bad neighborhood that's willing to work 14 hours a day. Someone that needs it. Never count those guys out, they're the ones that really change the world. They're willing to kill to make it happen. Bet on need.
Thats stereotypical. Underdogs do have the passion but thats not to say that Ivy League Students don't have that type of passion. They must have worked hard to get to where they are, so they also have the drive. Just look at Bill Gates.
The little guys are willing to make it happen, but if you think about it realistically, who would an investor train? a guy who knows a little bit about the subject or someone who doesn't. Everything is business, a person's qualifications are based on their education. John Hopkins would rather take an Ivy League student then a non Ivy League student because they've gone that extra mile. Large financial institutions take people with excellent resumes not the ones who claim that they have passion. Even a professional forex investor would rather take someone who has more qualification as compared to someone who doesn't.

Quoting Rabid
Edge isn't what you know, it's what you're willing to do and how hungry you are while doing it.
Both Ivy League and non Ivy League students are hungry. Just that the Ivy League students have more connections and have a stronger educational background to some degree.
Knowledge is Power. Edge is both knowledge and passion.
  • #40
  • Jun 17, 2009 12:35pm Jun 17, 2009 12:35pm
Quote
I'd rather be crammed with information, and then work on filtering it out instead of starting with some information.
Old proverb: Give a man a watch, he knows the time. Give a man 2, he never knows for sure.

Knowledge can be good, but in trading it's less important than your ability to act appropriately. Some cats instinctually chase their tails.

Quote
Thats stereotypical. Underdogs do have the passion but thats not to say that Ivy League Students don't have that type of passion. They must have worked hard to get to where they are, so they also have the drive. Just look at Bill Gates.
You missed my point. And Bill Gates dropped out.

A person with a professional degree from a prestigious university does not need to trade for a living. Sure, some will make it (mostly after the fact), but most people that come from that background will not survive trading on the sheer fact that they have better options for the same income. Why take the stress?

Quote
The little guys are willing to make it happen, but if you think about it realistically, who would an investor train?
I'd expect an investor to go with someone that already has a good track record. Fancy paper is not a qualification worth giving money to on blind faith. It's a common mistake.

Quote
Large financial institutions take people with excellent resumes not the ones who claim that they have passion.
Financial institutions (large or small) will inherently keep people based on performance. Your resume can be crap, just bring in money. History is littered with examples of ppl with little to no education doing well in this industry. If you take a trip to the pits, you will not find many ivy league diplomas.

Quote
Knowledge is Power. Edge is both knowledge and passion.
The right kind of knowledge, applied well, can lead to power. Application is everything.
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