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CFTC + NFA: End Of Hedging?

  • #61
  • May 6, 2009 10:05am May 6, 2009 10:05am
If you really wanted the argument to be over, you would post one of your full trade sequences from one of your hedged trades, and then we could definitively show you that what you are doing is replicable without hedging and probably at a cheaper cost, too (may not be cheaper depending on your hold time frame, will never be more expensive though ).

But we know you won't, because you know you are wrong, or you're just lying.

Happy trading
  • #62
  • Edited 11:02am May 6, 2009 10:34am | Edited 11:02am
Quoting smittens4212
If you really wanted the argument to be over, you would post one of your full trade sequences from one of your hedged trades, and then we could definitively show you that what you are doing is replicable without hedging and probably at a cheaper cost, too (may not be cheaper depending on your hold time frame, will never be more expensive though ).

But we know you won't, because you know you are wrong, or you're just lying.

Happy trading
- Just search "hedging" on this forum , you didn't either showed me either a proof of how hedging EUR/USD using USD/CHF is better than hedging taking 2 opposite orders in the same currency, anyway I don't say is not better by using a correlated currency ,because i didn't try that,

..but one thing is sure:

- Lots of traders USE hedging taking 2 opposite orders .
, and there ARE on this forum this kind of strategies...

Keeping denying the reality makes no sense so talking to you makes no sense , so let it be like you .

It's simple there are many hedging strategies , just search the forum.
Search field is on top of the page smittens

I won't tell good free hedging strategies you can find for yourself all over this forum.

If hedging were not profitably, there wouldn't have been so may traders upset about this no hedging rule .
All these people are fools ?

So it's obvious hedging works , but well , if you don't apply it good you will get burned , I quess you got burned in trying to apply it ( if you aplied hedging like you explained in your post ..ahahahaha .for sure you got burrrrrned....it works not like that you described it in your post smittens ,you gotta be more subtile .....but saying hedging don't works when there are traders who use it very well , that is obvious a contradiction of reality..so i will let you believe what you want.

Many pips
  • #63
  • May 6, 2009 11:02am May 6, 2009 11:02am
Heh, thanks for proving me right

Quote
But we know you won't, because you know you are wrong, or you're just lying.

I'm not in denial of anything, how can I be? If you show me a trade sequence and I can't show you how to do it without hedging at or less than cost, then maybe I'd be in denial. You my friend are the one who keeps on incessantly claiming that so many traders are using hedging profitably, without any real proof-- other than your own claims of course. Why should I believe them when I know for a fact that I am right? The math is all on my side. And, for the record, I'm not (no one has, as far as I know) claiming you can't hedge profitably, I'm stating as a fact that hedging is not more profitable than using the same strategy without hedging, because hedging is just an accounting trick to pick up more spreads and/or carry costs.

And no one is talking about hedging the EURUSD with USDCHF, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up. You are asking me to prove to you that hedging it that way is better, but I'm not and never have made that claim, so it appears to me you are trying to change the subject a little bit, buddy
  • #64
  • Edited 12:37pm May 6, 2009 12:06pm | Edited 12:37pm
[quote=smittens4212;2717158]Heh, thanks for proving me right

LOL

Quote
If you show me a trade sequence

Naa I let you sweat to discover how to use hedging.
Just beeing so many traders that use hedging it proofs is profitable, so you were not right at all, buddy.

See , YOU are the one which COULDN'T answer to my question about why there ARE many traders that use hedging .....maybe because it's profitable ?

Quote
You my friend are the one who keeps on incessantly claiming that so many traders are using hedging profitably, without any real proof--

LOL , so all these are using it just to lose ?

Quote
The math is all on my side.

Sure , it is if you 're going to hedge like you explained in your post , taken 2 flat positions and closing both in the same time , I agree , for you 1-1 = 0


Quote
And, for the record, I'm not (no one has, as far as I know) claiming you can't hedge profitably

LOL, now you begun too RECOGNIZE that hedging might be profitable....
Case CLOSED.
Smittens found GUILTY ( hahahahaahah ) of keeping "rambling like a broken record " that "hedging is not profitable" .( = your own words addressed to me in a previous of your posts ).


Quote
I'm stating as a fact that hedging is not more profitable than using the same strategy without hedging

Ha ha haaaa, now you search for a way out,after filling the forum with post that claim hedging is not profitable.... by changing the fact you initialy said : "hedging is not profitable", to late buddy, you kept repeating that hedging is not profitable all of your posts till now and now you begun to change your words..............

True is, you couln't stand against the truth, that is only one :
if applied corectly, hedging might be very profitable.

That was all I wanted to get out from you:
that :
Quote
And, for the record, I'm not (no one has, as far as I know) claiming you can't hedge profitably

So it's obvious that after repeating in 10 posts ,I noticed not only in this thread, that hedging is not profitable , now you recognized..

So in the end you contradicted yourself, all I can do is to a bit hhahahah

- Hedging is only about 20 % of my strategy I just trade S/R and pivot and trendline breaks.
- In my case I win more by adding hedging to the strategy ...i don't care if you believe it or not, buddy.
- One thing is clear: by not allowing hedging , I win less.

-Seems you REALLY think that all those are using hedging are just using it to lose...LOL...you really think they would keep use hedging if they would have losed by using it ?....

oh no..wait a minute...you began to recognize , LOL, hedging might be profitable ........

Many pips
  • #65
  • Edited 1:00pm May 6, 2009 12:26pm | Edited 1:00pm
nm, you can't read well (I don't think English is your first language, not an insult), it's not worth explaining anymore

Quote
So it's obvious that after repeating in 10 posts ,I noticed not only in this thread, that hedging is not profitable , now you recognized..

So in the end you contradicted yourself, all I can do is to a bit hhahahah

I never said hedging wasn't profitable, I said hedging wasn't -more- profitable (than non-hedging), and in fact is actually -less- profitable (but can still profit!). No contradictions. Again, goes back to you not being able to understand perfectly explicit and grammatically correct (for the most part) writing. If you can't understand it then, I don't expect you to understand this or future statements, so it's fruitless.

As for so many people using hedging... this is not evidence it works. So many people go into trading, yet that doesn't mean trading is profitable for most of them, or even any more than a few.

good trading redox, some day you will understand what the additional costs of 'hedging' are. Until then, I would re-read the posts (slowly, so you can understand them and not come back with 5 more posts saying things that no one ever said) that show why hedging is just an accounting practice, not a strategy.

And by the way, since you're such a cocky smug fuck, why don't you quote my posts where I said hedging can't be profitable. You can't, because you're fucking retarded and made that up!

Or, you could man up and post some trades! Show us your hedging. You won't. I know you won't, we all know you won't. You will just write and write about how many traders use hedging and that must mean it's profitable. You could end it all with just one post showing trades, but you won't. Save yourself the embarassment.
  • #66
  • Edited 1:26pm May 6, 2009 1:11pm | Edited 1:26pm
Smittens if you want , go ahead and keep , I'll quote you:

Quote
rattling like a broken record


Thing is ,you begun to change your statements and begun to admit that hedging might be profitable
:

Quote
I never said hedging wasn't profitable, I said hedging wasn't -more- profitable (than non-hedging), and in fact is actually -less- profitable (but can still profit!).

and anyone can see , that till now, you kept filling on forum threads that ,i'll quote you:

Quote
If you are holding two opposing positions, it doesn't matter where the market trends or doesn't trend, you are -not- making ANY money.

We don't apply hedging that simple how you want to see it , sure like that , no profit will be made, hahahahaah , seems you applied it like that and got burrrrrrrrrrneddddddddddddd ahahhaah.

Anyway just recognizing that , i quote you:
Quote
I never said hedging wasn't profitable, I said hedging wasn't -more- profitable (than non-hedging), and in fact is actually -less- profitable (but can still profit!).

is enough to laugh a bit on you,on how you found a way out, by changing your initial statement :
Quote
If you are holding two opposing positions, it doesn't matter where the market trends or doesn't trend, you are -not- making ANY money.

keep rattling like a tv if you want , i'll change the channel.



Quote
mangled English


yeah , yeah..when don't know what to say anymore , and caught with the stolen cheese, you begun to attack the language.. the other is using...it's a common thing on forums....

Quote
little kid logic


LOL Sure grand- pap.
Better recognize you first stated :

Quote
If you are holding two opposing positions, it doesn't matter where the market trends or doesn't trend, you are -not- making ANY money.

all over the forum, grand -pap,at your advanced age , you should have known hedging is profitable , and that's why lots of traders are not happy by not allowing it, pap.

Keep talking like a TV if not like a an old record , I'll change chanell pap, on Bloomberg,
I let the cartoon channel for you... .hahahaha
  • #67
  • May 6, 2009 1:37pm May 6, 2009 1:37pm
Uh, what I said was true. If you hold two opposing positions, you are flat. Period. This is not wrong. No matter where they go, you aren't making money. Are you retarded? If you hold a long and short, it doesn't matter which way the market goes, you don't make money. You are flat. For every dollar gained on the long, you lose a dollar on the short. If you close one half of your hedged trade, you are no longer hedged, and you can make money. This isn't in dispute. What is in dispute is whether or not I can do what you are doing without hedging, and more profitably. I know I can, but you won't post your trades. Gee, I wonder why

Quote
We don't apply hedging that simple how you want to see it , sure like that , no profit will be made, hahahahaah , seems you applied it like that and got burrrrrrrrrrneddddddddddddd ahahhaah.

I don't hedge, hedging is pointless. Like I said,
Quote
If you are holding two opposing positions, it doesn't matter where the market trends or doesn't trend, you are -not- making ANY money.

How would I get burned, I'm the one who understands basic math here

Here is how you can make money hedging: open a long and short at price 5, close the long out at price 10, close the short out at price 0. You make 10 points, and you did it with two trades, two spreads. I don't go flat at price 5 (like you are, oops, I mean go 'hedged'), and then I go short at price 10, or long at price 0, and I make 10 points, with one spread. I made more money than you.

By the way, I'm still waiting for you to post ONE sequence of trades. You can do that, can't you? Shouldn't be too difficult. You have no proof of anything otherwise. Just keep on writing, I'll be waiting for those trades. You can pick them from any currency, any time period. Why won't you? Just post the trades and you can 'win' the argument, right? I mean, what better proof than posting real hedged trades? If I can't do the same thing at the same price or cheaper without hedging, you win.

The challenge is out there, it's been out there, and yet you keep backing down like a little coward. The burden of proof is on you, since you're the one claiming that hedging is more profitable than not hedging.
  • #68
  • Edited 2:12pm May 6, 2009 1:52pm | Edited 2:12pm
Quoting smittens4212
Uh, what I said was true. If you hold two opposing positions, you are flat. Period. This is not wrong. No matter where they go, you aren't making money. Are you retarded? If you hold a long and short, it doesn't matter which way the market goes, you don't make money. You are flat. For every dollar gained on the long, you lose a dollar on the short. If you close one half of your hedged trade, you are no longer hedged, and you can make money. This isn't in dispute. What is in dispute is whether or not I can do what you are doing without hedging, and...
Pap, i told you u , i don't apply hedging like you said, it's more complicated , you wouldn't understand, i explained you 3 times,
that if i 'd hedge like you presented in your posts, I would lose for sure .....remember how you losed by hedging like you presented in your post .....not long ago ..when you got buRRRRned .....well your kind of old , i don't think you are remembering ..LOL... ...ahahahh...
..I'm not going to reveal to you how i hedge , you wouldn't understand, you're to old pap.,ahhahahaha, besides you don't deserve ,you talk to dirty, but well, if you have to have in your mouth that words begining with s### all day , if that makes you to feel good , haahhahaha

Pap...i sense you are so tense .......i think you'd better ..take a deep ....breath....of...AIR....relax....
...i think i'll better ignore you , you are to much tense,and at your age pap you might have a harth attack or a stroke ....and we here no way want that .....LOL


oh , thanks for the good time , we all here laughed and had a very good time reading your tense posts pap...please take a pill , you need to relax , we don't want you to make a stroke LOOOOOOOOOOL

Many pips grand-pap

Pap, many traders are hedging succesfuly...but you begun to recognize that..anyway..that is all i wanted to make you recognize , so now that you recognized, the quote when you are recognizing is in my previous post.

And you know what ?
It doesn't even matter if me personalyy i win by hedging or not ( i'm winning though )
...the thing that matters is that hedging is profitable IF done in a more complex strategy, not like you did presented it, which doesn't make me wonder why you got buRRRRned PAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP, i quess, at your age you don't hear very well pap, hahahahaha.


Oh thanks again for the good time

keep rattling LOL....
you are ignored pap.
  • #69
  • May 6, 2009 2:03pm May 6, 2009 2:03pm


Yup, much too complicated! Great excuse! As always, another excuse though

...lol... AHAhhaha.. hahah.. grate.. engrish... pap.. grand... LOl... retard.. hahahah BurrrnNNNNedd........ haha..... AHAHHAAH... .looo ... l.. stiltled typing.. LOLLL... burrnnneNED... hahaha.. grand ... PAP... hahaha

Not tense here pap, I'm making nice money to be sitting here chatting

Happy trading
  • #70
  • May 6, 2009 2:17pm May 6, 2009 2:17pm
You two guys need to take a break..................
Same Whore .... Different Dress
  • #71
  • May 6, 2009 2:33pm May 6, 2009 2:33pm
Quoting smittens4212
If you show me a trade sequence.....
I don't think he's going to, it will destroy his argument if he does.

What I don't understand is why people can't see that 10k long and 10k short on the same pair isn't going to make them any money unless they're trading one way intraday and the other way longer term, but then wouldn't it be easier to just have separate (sub) accounts?

There are lots of hedging strategies but I've never heard of one like this before! Come on Redox77 why don't you show us where we're going wrong with this, you never know maybe we're missing something!
  • #72
  • May 6, 2009 2:58pm May 6, 2009 2:58pm
Is this a valid argument? It was done hedging. I know it could be done without hedging. But hedging was simpler. I use hedging just for this reason: simplicity. I pay my double swaps (there is no double spread) for simplicity.

P.S.: hedging is simpler or more complicated depending on the strategy as a whole (no teaching intended). In my case, the alternative would be to keep track of dead trades. Hedging was simpler to implement.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Histórico completo até fev_2009.JPG Size: 190 KB
  • #73
  • May 6, 2009 3:12pm May 6, 2009 3:12pm
Yes, it's a valid argument. Eliminating hedging can screw things up for ticket-trading platforms (Metatrader brokers, and maybe a few others), and hedging may make things more simple than not doing so, depending on the strategy and platform.

Not sure what you expect from the picture though, why not post the actual file so we could see what the trades are and see for ourselves why hedging is or isn't better?

The only half-decent argument for not getting rid of hedging is that it can ruin some systems that were set up with hedging in mind. Given that hedging is a relatively recent feature (believe most brokers started offering it in 07-08), I don't really buy into it too much, given the benefits. Personally I think these regulations are only a good thing, and a minor inconvenience for some at worst.
  • #74
  • Edited 3:43pm May 6, 2009 3:14pm | Edited 3:43pm
Quoting pipmutt
I don't think he's going to, it will destroy his argument if he does.

What I don't understand is why people can't see that 10k long and 10k short on the same pair isn't going to make them any money unless they're trading one way intraday and the other way longer term, but then wouldn't it be easier to just have separate (sub) accounts?

There are lots of hedging strategies but I've never heard of one like this before! Come on Redox77 why don't you show us where we're going wrong with this, you never know maybe we're missing...
Pip so you think is a losing strategy..i won't show you ..here are enough threads ...you anyway think it doesn't work..

Please asume hedging doesn't work...and also that i just only lose by hedging.

There are enough threads on the forum you can work a bit and search ..doesn't make sense to repeat those threads ...

Please asume I lose by hedging, it's just a simple hedging strategy , it's nothing fancy , besides i said already i'm not using it as an independent strategy, it's embeded in the known s/r , +pivots +trendlines strategy.

It's explained in the hedging threads , i'm not going to repeat those threads here , it makes no sense because it just is the same thing, search box is in top of the page..

But please better asume i'm a loser and also asume that hedging doesn't work . i don't need to convince rude people it works is a fact that some traders know it works...at begining smittens said it doesn't and now doesn't recognize ..........but hey,seems smittens begun to recognize it works...

About you it's obvious you keep his part so go ahead and search for yourself .
I don't have a personal hedging strategy , is on the forum if you want it..

Anyway there are enough examples on this forum of hedging .

But please take care , i have to remember you that


Quote
past performances of a strategy do not guarantee future results

Quote
Trading foreign exchange on margin carries a high level of risk, and may not be suitable for all investors. The high degree of leverage can work against you as well as for you.


... pipmutt..


Many pips to you.
  • #75
  • May 6, 2009 3:54pm May 6, 2009 3:54pm
Quoting Redox77
Please asume hedging doesn't work...and also that i just only lose by hedging.

Please asume I lose by hedging

But please better asume i'm a loser and also asume that hedging doesn't work

I don't have a personal hedging strategy
Oh ok, I thought you said before that you were hedging profitably.

There are lots of hedging strategies which can be profitable so keep an open mind, plenty of professional traders use them, it's just I had never heard of anyone seriously using anything like you've tried to describe.

Anyway yes, many pips to you too!
  • #76
  • May 6, 2009 4:19pm May 6, 2009 4:19pm
Great bulk of successful and incredibly profitable traders just trade
one or two pairs. I only do Eur/Usd and it is scalp in nature...
so clearly, at least half will end up being offset orders. And
over 90% of my trades are winning trades. This is what will come
to an end. This new rule will protect newbies, NFA says, from
brokers who sell them on the idea of immediate hedge. Oh, ya?
Please... do you think anything will save and protect newbie
traders who blow their account in 2 weeks... again and again?
I think not. Anti-hedgers really don't understand what offset
order is. You can immediately tell by reading their babbles.
They do not understand. They say stuff like if you are long
and short on Eur/Usd, you can't make any money! This crap
is even being said by reporters on NASDAQ commenting on NFA's
rule. It's amazing. You can't make money by being long and
short on one currency pair? Really? Even if both close out
for profit? What are they smoking? Clearly the same crap NFA
smoked one night and woke up to write up this retarded rule.
Brokers are selling hedge as a vehicle to protect your account?
Which brokers? Then isn't it more prudent to tell brokers to
rewrite their risk warning rules and better educate the consumers
rather than punish profitable traders who trade the opportunities
whether it is long or short?

Now, brokers are scrambling to read into NFA's new retard rule
to see how they can get around it. They could either totally
disallow all offset orders from being even placed, or they could
make equal lot size cancel each other out, or let the orders go
through and let it cancel out at rollover. Or open up a division
in UK or Canada and transfer their clients' account to that division.

I am moving out of US as well or find a well capitalized firm who
have always thumbed their noses at the worthless NFA.
Concentrate on going after crooked firms, not on handcuffing
successful traders. I am annoyed.

Send a scathing email to NFA, I did. So did all my friends.

[email protected]
  • #77
  • May 6, 2009 4:29pm May 6, 2009 4:29pm
Originally Posted by pipmutt http://www.forexfactory.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
I don't think he's going to, it will destroy his argument if he does.

What I don't understand is why people can't see that 10k long and 10k short on the same pair isn't going to make them any money unless they're trading one way intraday and the other way longer term, but then wouldn't it be easier to just have separate (sub) accounts?

There are lots of hedging strategies but I've never heard of one like this before! Come on Redox77 why don't you show us where we're going wrong with this, you never know maybe we're missing...

================================================

All scalpers are inadvertent hedgers. I am clearly under
the impression that all anti-hedge people think that hedge
is only anything that is immediate hedge without any
thinking or plan behind it. Not so. All scalpers are hedgers
in that at least half of their trades are in fact offset orders...
and in fact, the bulk of their trades are winning ones.

I can place 10K long and a couple hours or even minutes later
place a 10K short and eventually, within a day, have both
trades close out for huge profit. This is what can be hugely
profitable scalping on a MetaTrader 4 platform. Sub-account
would be a waste of time. That kind of thinking is for people
who hedge for the sake of hedging and who always only
immediate hedge; meaning they go long and short at the
same time always because they are dumb or lazy.

I trade opportunities only and long and short opportunities
are everywhere at all times... and when I see it, I enter
the trade with scalp in mind. 5 Lot long and 5 Lot short
could be hours apart or minutes apart but they end up
being winning trades. The fact that most anti-hedge people
see this tells me that they are not successful traders or
have been handicapped by non MT4 platform and poisoned
with their failures. Why is separate sub-account easier?
That is just retarded. Winning successful traders aren't
hedging for the sake of hedging, it's just that most of
their trades end up being offset orders because they
trade opportunities and scalp that opportunity. And that
is both long and short. And a ton of that shows up in any
given hour to 8 hour trading day for me. If you only
see long or short, you are limiting yourself.
  • #78
  • May 6, 2009 4:37pm May 6, 2009 4:37pm
Quoting Redox77
I don't close the orders at the same moment , so I win both because market comes back 70 % of time.
So I win 70 % of time by taking 2 opposite orders.

## 1 is a long order and it becomes 2 so i win 2-1 = 1 so it's a win
## -1 is a short i wait till it gets becomes -2 so -1 -(-2) = -1+2=1 so i win again 1
------------------------------------------------------
So in total i win 1+1 = 2
Any 5 years old kid knows that .

This happens 70 % , sure I also lose the other 30 %, but it's enough to have the house edge so per total hedging it's a win....
Why do the shortsighted people who are painfully
unsuccessful and unprofitable traders want "proof"
of offset orders being profitable? This is in fact
how most, if not all, successful scalpers scalping
on MetaTrader 4 makes their money. Proof?
They can't wrap their mind around the fact that
you can win both longs and shorts on one currency
pair in a given day when prices go up and down
and when prices retrace? Honestly, they really
don't know much and clearly, they are not
profitable traders. Enough said on anti-hedge
group on here. Painfully clear that they aren't
making any money trading.
  • #79
  • May 6, 2009 4:38pm May 6, 2009 4:38pm
Quoting pipmutt
Oh ok, I thought you said before that you were hedging profitably.

There are lots of hedging strategies which can be profitable so keep an open mind, plenty of professional traders use them, it's just I had never heard of anyone seriously using anything like you've tried to describe.

Anyway yes, many pips to you too!
I am profitable pipmutt but mostly i'm winning from trendline breaks and not hedging..
, I said that you are free to consider I am not because i'm not going to reveal my strayegy .because you were very ironic .........

...it's on the forum anyway..and it's not a fancy one it's very simple and standard ...
- Not allowing hedging though, makes me to lose a big chunk otherwise i would have won...because some positions are not anymore recovered....


- Anyway things are not like smitt-grand pap presented in his posts deliberately about hedging , "you can't profit taking two opposite orders" 1-1 = makes 0 , not at all, for me 1-1 makes 2 when market comes back and , market comes 70 % back..

i think you both know it , you just pretend you don't know to show off,

lately smittens begun to recognize hedging is sometimes profitable ,well maybe I use THOSE times...

I have not engaged in this discution to proof I am personaly myself winning by hedging , but just I want to say hedging might be profitable and for some i am sure it is..

If some one is limited from now on in the options he has by someone else, that is help?

NFA claimed it helped by introducing this rule , ABOUT THIS was the thread, i preffer to decide myself what is good or not for me because the money are MINE , I earned them so if I want to lose them by hedging i should be allowed to do it.

Haha, i remember Smittens begun the "dispute" , saying those money I lose will go to him ..LOL...not even in your best dreams smittens ...90 % of traders lose ...............if I will lose my money , probability is , they will go to the broker because probability that you are a winner is also 5 to 10 % , no more ...90-95 of traders lose...remember pap ?

And even if you are a winner Smittens , if let's say I invest live 300 $ you will get 15 bucks hahahahah, splitting those 15 bucks to 100 WINNING traders you don't get even a dime, HAHAHAHAHA, which you can have it , btw, big deal.
  • #80
  • May 6, 2009 4:56pm May 6, 2009 4:56pm
Quoting iluvfx
Why do the shortsighted people who are painfully
unsuccessful and unprofitable traders want "proof"
of offset orders being profitable? This is in fact
how most, if not all, successful scalpers scalping
on MetaTrader 4 makes their money. Proof?
They can't wrap their mind around the fact that
you can win both longs and shorts on one currency
pair in a given day when prices go up and down
and when prices retrace? Honestly, they really
don't know much and clearly, they are not
profitable traders. Enough said on anti-hedge
group on here....
Yes , true iluxvfx , is that simple , I won't bother to explain them anymore, it's a loss of time , i win 70 % both positions , and those losed are hedged anyway , i lose only the spread....,

anyway it doesn't mater if I personally lose or win , thread was about NFA restricting options traders have and claims that as help...
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