"Time After Time" Open Forum

Comments on the Closed Thread Welcome.

Forgive me but We would like to get the 'Groundworks' down before the distractions abound.

That means you are welcome to post here.

I don't believe we are the only ones who have considered "Time" as a factor.

Hi Bemac

Interested to see where this will go and how you use time. One element of time that I use is time stops. For example, how much time do we allow a position to devour if it doesn't seem to be proving itself in either direction? I started a thread in the Trading Room when we had it and a few of the responses made me think about time in more ways than simple time stops. The thread (very short) is here.

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...ferrerid=35876

If this doesn't in any way dovetail with what you're leading up to, go ahead and delete it, or I will without feeling slighted. I'm all for keeping the thread focused.

Like I would Ever delete a response from you. Thanks BF {i know your name and have forwarded it to the appropriate authoroti....} yeay yeay, but I had you going for a minute there, {did you catch the Time Element?}
It's a pertinent and integral part of this S#it we do But, as Yet, I don't have the Codex.

Working on it.

Doesn't matter. They've already got my number but have too many bigger fish to fry.

I'm sure you've used P and F charts or at least played with them. To me, P and F gets rid of what I call "time noise". If price isn't moving we don't see it not moving. This hides the normal recurring periods of non-activity--late NY session, late Asia session, etc. In one way, it's to our benefit--these periods of inactivity are not exactly the same as indecision and depending on method and timeframe, should be ignored.
However, in the shorter term we stay out during these inactive periods and make our decisions based on the direction of the next new session, which is likely a reaction to the previous session.
So, my question to you, as I'm sure you've filled in a few P and F charts by hand: Do you see a benefit in reduction of "time noise" that P and F charts might give us? Or do you think they eliminate something useful.

To be honest Bill, I've probably looked @ Point & Figure a couple of dozen times over the last decade or so.

Point being.
I would appreciate your understanding of how it helps you in determining your Timing.

{Trying to work on some images to populate the other thread but can't ignore dieties like this guy}
(yeah, I mean you billflet)

Meanwhile, consider this.

"I'm Long with a TP 120 P above Entry. I like where I Got In, Price raced 80 in my favour but that was 2 hours ago. Now what?"

"I'm Long with a TP 120 P above Entry. I like where I Got In, Price crawled along for 2 hours or so before breaking 80 in my favour. Now what?"

"I'm Long with a TP 120 P above Entry. I like where I Got In, Price hasn't moved for 2 hours or so & I'm starting to reconsider My Trade. Now what?"


2 Hours could just as easily be 2 Min, 2 Days, Weeks or Months.
This is about "The Other Factor" of when You Cancell a Trade.
It may not be Only about Pips.

Scenario:
I'm In & I'm Long.
6Hrs later; I'm up 2 pips. {that's wonderfull if it hasn't swayed 80 during those 6 hrs.}

It's Old {like me} I know but Timing Relates to Time.

This thread is a quest to pull back the curtain.

I tend to lean toward "Hold a creeper, let go of a leaper"

The first scenario: I'd be expecting a quick retrace of at least part of the 80 pip leap. So, I'd be inclined get out happy and expect another good entry if price continued up. I hate to tighten stops when I get nervous. If I were up 80 pips and tightened my stop to 15 or so, I'd feel almost certain of giving back 15 pips.

Second situation: I like creepers, so I'd have more confidence in this and would hold.

Third situation: If I were trading 15 min I'd bail. 30 min--I'd be getting close to bailing. 60 min or longer, I'd give it more time.
The reason for these choices is this: If price doesn't move within 5 candles of the time period I entered on, I feel my analysis was off, my expectancy is evaporating and I'm getting closer to a coin-toss entry. But...I have to consider time of day. If I got a super entry in the late Asian session, or late NY morning, I'd be expecting price to languish. It would have to be an attractive entry to drag me in during those hours though.

http://www.forexfactory.com/showpost...5&postcount=81

It's something I came up with two years ago. It's looks nice and does it's job but I've moved to other methods. I called it a parabolic stop.

Bemac,

Jr97 will remember this pic, for your consideration. Basics for 3d projection.

regards,

a

Thats kinda cool. {swagger swagger like it's not absoflogginlutly interesting & intriguing.}

How did you do that auxesis?

C'mon bud; spill the beens {sp correct}
I would welcome any additional thoughts & I know you have had a few.

Are the Reds Front to Back Containment zones?

Can you hook this Chamber to Any Bar?
If not; how did you decide where it lives?

Please define Green & Cyan elipses. That would help.

Ah yes. Brilliant. Since the cat is out of the bag, maybe I'll consider throwing up some of my cubic structure work.

Bemac
There was a time when I strained my brain trying to get a handle on 3 dimensional charting, what exists now is incapable of measuring or drawing on a 3d axis, as you need the ability to change orientation, the pic was an attempt to illustrate what needed to be measured ideally and was hand drawn on Mt4, basically copying ellipses and likes.

The best grasp on 3d charting that I have been able to incorporate into my trading is by the use of pitch forks, the problem arises when you try to count time horizontally as the angle representing the movement of price is not moving straight sideways. Shown below is an example. Most counting techniques try to establish count from a reversal point and count out in a static true east/right method.

But what if movement is 3d and we need to plot on a x,y and z axis? In the example below price is moving towards you and passing you, slightly on the right and down. Here we measure the time line on the vector determined by price from point A and the midpoint bisecting points B and C.
Imho, price moves in circular motions, or if traveling through distance price would be contained in a cylinder, on a 2 dimensional chart it would be seen as a channel if you can visualize it. If it was moving away it would be seen as a wedge or cone as the cylinder visually grows smaller as it travels off in a distance.

But straight lines are not the best way to describe price action; a wise trader once told me you can’t walk a straight line through the woods, unless you want to bump your face many times. When a price channel breaks down it usually gives birth to a new channel, failure distance with a new supporting/resistance line copied from the opposite side of the channel ….. isn’t this just the rough description of an arc or ellipse, basically a parabolic movement?

If you could chart in a 3 dimensional Cartesian coordinate system you might be able to determine the equation of a movement, to the apex of its curve, that should equate to what we would see as the reversal point.

But it’s hard enough for me to make money on a 2d chart, let along try to plot in 3d. The fork measure is the best I’ve come up with, it’s roots are in Andrews and Makula.

@ JR97 there’s no cat to let out, just thought I’d throw my 2 cents out there, hopefully the discussion will spark someone to venture further with it, as I’ve lost the enthusiasm for such studies.

Hope it helps…

Best of luck.

a

You may have sojourned to other avenues but I would love to have you back on this one.

Time is a perspective. That remains constant. It, however, may not be consistant. Just a thought

Hence the PTV.

This problem also alludes to another problem I ran into in that standard chart settings such as 1h, 15m, 5m, etc. might not be the most appropriate measurement in correlation to the price axis. Sort of like having a grid with meters up one side and feet on the other.

BTW, there's about $1000 worth of book knowledge in those diagrams. Thanks for sharing. Sorry to hear you've lost the enthusiasm. As you well know, it's what keeps me interested in the game. Otherwise I'd just go play poker with my money.

I've only been toying with P and F recently. But they seem to eliminate the time aspect of charting. When price moves sideways on candle/line/bar charts, it simply stops on the P and F charts. This, to me, gives a truer trendline, especially on shorter term charts during the times of day that I mentioned before.
I didn't know how time influence was going to be discussed here until now. I won't clutter the thread further with P and F discussions. I'm glad to see references to Pitchforks though. Now I know I'll be able to comprehend at least a few splinters of what's going on here.

So much knowledge and years of study in that post, a. I need to comment on this section because I think most people will completely miss a major connection here. The ellipse, parabola, and thus the circle (special case of the ellipse) and the hyperbola are all conic sections. A conic section is basically a plane or 2d slice of a multi-dimensional object. The connection I think most people won't get is that the Gann Sq9, Hexagon, and any other shape will spell out parabolic growth/decay or quadratics. So while the 3D nature isn't always possible to be drawn with a straight line in 2D space, it can still be applied mathmatically to the chart.

To quote Gann concerning the hexagon chart:

Quote

Disliked

"Since everything moves in a circle and nothing moves in straight lines, this chart is to show you how the angles influence stocks at very low levels and very high levels and why stocks move faster the higher they get, because they have moved out to where the distance between the angles of 45° are so far apart that there is nothing to stop them and their moves are naturally rapid up and down."

In future posts I can go more into that and show actual practical trading applications of some simple "parabolic" ideas. There are some examples in my blog(s). www.time-traders.com and http://4xcycletrader.blogspot.com.

I did some ellipse work in this thread: http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=148796

auxesis and I have studied a lot of the same stuff for years. Him longer than me. But I can comment quite a bit on the ellipse. Ideally, they're not just hooked to any generic swing high/low. They're measurements of sections of larger 4D structures. Getting back to my post in the "closed" thread where I talked about the 4th D being motion.. and this is getting a little into areas I actually didn't want to get too much into.. if something is in motion it can carve out a path. Your point of observation will determine what the carved path will look like.

For example, take a slinky and look at the mouth straight on. You'll see a circle. Look at it from an angle and you'll see an ellipse. Now stretch out the slinky and connect it end to end to make a big donut or torus. The circular windings represent the path of motion which is contained within the slinky toroidal structure. Any "slice" will be elliptical in nature (straight on being the special case of the ellipse aka the circle.) So understanding that price is an object in toroidal motion, then the ellipse can map out containment. The reason price is jumping all over the place on a 2D chart is because the point of observation changes as the structure's face rotates into and out of view. Then throw in rotation. Sounds imposible to measure, but Brad Cowan's book 4 Dimensional Market Structures proves it mathmatically. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to apply consistently on anything smaller than the daily chart nor the most practical. In fact, after years of extensive work with the ellipse I've more or less shelved it as a trading tool because if it's not right, then it can be oh so wrong.

I just need to add how excited I am to see posts from auxesis. I've learned so much from him over the years. Good to you see active, B.

Indeed price waves evolve in 3D (it can be seen much easier by setting up a Gann Grid). There is an additional movement though, which is rotation: the 3D scene is not static, or seen from a single angle. It slowly rotates and has to be permanently adjusted to keep seeing the 3D relationship. Most indicators are static (trendlines for example) and make it difficult to follow the evolution of the prices in their own path. Maybe the COG? I personally use Andrew's Pitchforks which I keep on adjusting as the price rotates.