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Just bought trading in the zone by Mark Douglas

  • #21
  • Mar 1, 2009 11:25am Mar 1, 2009 11:25am
Quoting Craig
Yes - hence my opinion on it.
You should take your own advise, as you say 'each to his own'. If it lights your fire, cool, but you will just have to deal with the fact it doesn't light mine.
That is cool. But from looking at your profile and seeing 'quant', I might be making assumptions here, but I think that might explain why you have the opinion you have of the book.
  • #22
  • Mar 1, 2009 8:47pm Mar 1, 2009 8:47pm
Quote
No matter how long I trade I am always trying to learn new things but as always to each his own.

Whoops. I think you meant to say "as always to each his own, unless I don't agree with it, then its probably wrong".

Quote
All of these psychological trading books have a little background fluff to them.

That is very true but this book takes it to a new level. Like I said, a solid message, but the book is littered with psycho fluff phrases which I just can't stand to read. And sometimes paragraphs.

From page 59:

"Traders who are consistently successful are consistent as a natu-
ral expression of who they are. They don't have to try to be consistent;
they are consistent. This may seem like an abstract distinction, but it
is vitally important that you understand the difference. Being consis-
tent is not something you can try to be, because the very act of trying
will negate your intent by mentally taking you out of the opportunity
flow, making it less likely that you will win and more likely you will lose."

Is it vitally important that I understand the difference? Really? It does not sound like an abstract distinction at all.

This book practically teaches common sense if you aren't aware of it already. Which according to Mark Twain, "common sense is uncommon".
  • #23
  • Mar 1, 2009 8:52pm Mar 1, 2009 8:52pm
Its too bad people are searching far and wide for "wisdom" these days. It seems no one appreciates hard work anymore.

Here is some wisdom: Put in the hours.

Simple.
  • #24
  • Mar 1, 2009 11:13pm Mar 1, 2009 11:13pm
To you loa1452 :


What I find very amusing is that you came into this thread with the intent of being very sarcastic and against what the thread is about just because you don't like the mindset, or the way the book was written. To me you have just proven to be extremely unhappy with yourself among other things,which may be your trading history. =) Welcome to my ignore list, you are the first and I am sure there will be many more.

Hard work and wisdom do go hand in hand by the way, it's not either or.

Or you could go with the method of just putting in hard work beating your head against the wall... I would rather save the headache.
Pippin all over the world =)
  • #25
  • Mar 1, 2009 11:44pm Mar 1, 2009 11:44pm
At what point do "their heads" and "your head" become the same? They are reading Mark Douglas too, and using the same tactics on your trades.

Quoting FXSurfer
I agree. IMO Chapter 15 - The Psychology Of Price Movement in
The Disciplined Trader is the best thing Douglas has ever written.
Really good stuff! Not so much inside of your head but, in the head
of other traders as the market rolls along. Worth buying the book IMO.
  • #26
  • Mar 1, 2009 11:47pm Mar 1, 2009 11:47pm
This is what I don't get about these threads.

Just because loa doesn't like the book, suddenly he is "a bad trader and an unhappy person."

Give me a break! I get sick of the heckling that goes on against people that have a different opinion about things.

The thread starter wanted opinions, ALL OF THEM.

Quoting insom
To you loa1452 :


What I find very amusing is that you came into this thread with the intent of being very sarcastic and against what the thread is about just because you don't like the mindset, or the way the book was written. To me you have just proven to be extremely unhappy with yourself among other things,which may be your trading history. =) Welcome to my ignore list, you are the first and I am sure there will be many more.

Hard work and wisdom do go hand in hand by the way,...
  • #27
  • Mar 1, 2009 11:52pm Mar 1, 2009 11:52pm
I wonder if Wilder was paid for that plug. Think about it. Endorsements are a business too....

Quoting SunTrader
Ever hear of Welles Wilder, the man who developed RSI/ADX and many other standard technical analysis studies, he is among many who have commented on the book, "Have you ever received a gift from a friend which looked pretty innocuous on the surface, but when you delved into it, you found it to be of immense value? The gift that I received is Trading in the Zone. I would strongly recommend that each of you give yourself a gift of this book".
  • #28
  • Mar 2, 2009 12:07am Mar 2, 2009 12:07am
If I may generalize, I think that there are folk who see trading as a right-brained 'discretionary' exercise, while others see it as more of a left-brained mechanical exercise. In other words, some see it as an 'art', others as a 'science'.

I suspect that the first group are more likely to appreciate Mr Douglas' book. They are seeking understanding and motivation in WHAT they need to do (apply a profitable strategy with consistency and discipline), while they see the development of the strategy itself as being an on-going, experiential journey. For them, the battle primarily lies with understanding emotions, and mastery of self.

To the second group, the WHAT (consistent and disciplined application) is self-evident, as they are more concerned with the methodological HOW, which Trading in the Zone doesn't attempt to address (assuming I recall correctly, it's been a while since I read it). Hence, at best they will see the book as repetitively stating what to them seems no more than common sense, padded with fluff and psychobabble, and come away feeling cheated. They tend to see trading 'psychology' as a necessary evil that, rather than requiring an in-depth understanding, simply needs to be rigorously implemented.

'Market Wizard' type books contain interviews with successful traders from both of these camps.
  • #29
  • Mar 2, 2009 12:19am Mar 2, 2009 12:19am
Quoting Rabid

I still don't love the writing style, but I appreciate the points he makes.
I felt the same. It made some good points to try and drill them into the readers head but this was one of the hardest books I have read in a looong timne thanks to the writing style.
  • #30
  • Mar 2, 2009 12:22am Mar 2, 2009 12:22am
(In response to hanover).
Nice post, may I suggest a slightly different view, the thing which unifies nearly all of the 'Market Wizards' is that they have a plan that works, the HOW or WHAT is only really how they choose to implement that plan. This of course is simply my opinion, and as such may be simply a by-product of the obvious cognitive distortion I carry from being firmly in the WHAT camp.
The breaking of a wave cannot explain the whole sea.
  • #31
  • Mar 2, 2009 12:46am Mar 2, 2009 12:46am
Quoting tdion
This is what I don't get about these threads.

Just because loa doesn't like the book, suddenly he is "a bad trader and an unhappy person."

Give me a break! I get sick of the heckling that goes on against people that have a different opinion about things.

The thread starter wanted opinions, ALL OF THEM.
What a wanker

Tdion has 2800 posts and criticizes everyone else. He has NEVER made a real trade.
  • #32
  • Mar 2, 2009 12:54am Mar 2, 2009 12:54am
Reported for disrespect.

Quoting tuguntrumpet
What a wanker

Tdion has 2800 posts and criticizes everyone else. He has NEVER made a real trade.
  • #33
  • Mar 2, 2009 12:57am Mar 2, 2009 12:57am
Quoting tdion
At what point do "their heads" and "your head" become the same? They are reading Mark Douglas too, and using the same tactics on your trades.
Good point.

I'm curious as to what people think of the chapter that I referred to.
If you google "The Disciplined Trader PDF" you can read it (just talking about chapter 15) for free. Just wonder if people (with more experience than me, i.e. most everyone) feel that it is an accurate description of what takes place during the trading process collectively. It's only a chapter and IMO worth the several minutes to read. I could post a link but, don't know if I'm supposed to here on the forum.

I'll pull this post if it's hijacking the thread. Just thought since we are talking Douglas...
  • #34
  • Mar 2, 2009 4:19am Mar 2, 2009 4:19am
Without a defined edge, no psychological help will ever get someone profitable. Get an edge first, then work on your head...
  • #35
  • Mar 2, 2009 4:36am Mar 2, 2009 4:36am
Quoting peppermint
Without a defined edge, no psychological help will ever get someone profitable. Get an edge first, then work on your head...
The term 'edge' is open to personal interpretation.

Is trading with the trend an edge in your opinion? Or is being able to define a trend an edge? Is an edge something that has performed well in the past? Or is an edge when you can say exactly why price is moving in a given direction at a given time?

I think most here who think they have an edge realy dont.

I think if 90% of people were given an honest to god edge, rules writen out as clear as day and enough stats to back it up... then there would be no need for a book on psychology. If they realy wanted success they would do what was in their best interests and follow the plan.

Psychology is the cover-up used by sellers and designers of crappy systems.

All IMO ofcourse...
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #36
  • Mar 2, 2009 4:41am Mar 2, 2009 4:41am
I dont like any of Mark Douglas's books, so you are not alone. His knowledge of psychology is at best superficial, and his knowledge of trading practically non existant :-)

But thats probably why the book is popular
  • #37
  • Mar 2, 2009 4:58am Mar 2, 2009 4:58am
Quoting Leonlorenzo
I think if 90% of people were given an honest to god edge, rules writen out as clear as day and enough stats to back it up... then there would be no need for a book on psychology. If they realy wanted success they would do what was in their best interests and follow the plan.

Psychology is the cover-up used by sellers and designers of crappy systems.
Think about this. In life, most of us know what the right thing to do is in most occasions. Yet, many times we don't do the right thing. Hence, we create many of our problems ourselves. It doesn't matter why we chose to do the wrong thing at times (I believe it's because we're basically irrational with moments of lucidity), the fact remains we screw up our lives on a regular basis. Growing old teaches one that there are always plenty of new variations on old themes to screw up.

I believe trading is no different. If you were to give a winning system to anyone, they still need the emotional make-up to be able to execute it to the letter. People can't do this in their day to day life with much consistency, why should they do it in trading. This is where the psychology comes in. Fix yourself in your life, then trading becomes doable. But if you're a fuck-up in life, why in the world would one expect to not be a fuck-up as a trader escapes me. Oh wait a minute, I know, it's because we're inherently irrational.

Just my opinion, of course.
  • #38
  • Mar 2, 2009 5:16am Mar 2, 2009 5:16am
Quoting Dopey
Think about this. In life, most of us know what the right thing to do is in most occasions. Yet, many times we don't do the right thing. Hence, we create many of our problems ourselves. It doesn't matter why we chose to do the wrong thing at times (I believe it's because we're basically irrational with moments of lucidity), the fact remains we screw up our lives on a regular basis. Growing old teaches one that there are always plenty of new variations on old themes to screw up.

I believe trading is no different. If you were to give a winning system...
I see a distinct difference though, life has many distractions, conflicting personality traits, ambitions, desires for different women for example, alot of it is about greed.

In trading you either want to win or you dont, and there is once again greed. Greed will only be a good thing for you If you have a proven method/a solid edge, it will force you to satisfy yourself and make the money.

Unless ofcourse, you really dont want the money asociated with trading but instead are after the thrills. In that case maby the person does need a book to sort out their mental issues.
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #39
  • Mar 2, 2009 5:39am Mar 2, 2009 5:39am
Quoting hanover
If I may generalize, I think that there are folk who see trading as a right-brained 'discretionary' exercise, while others see it as more of a left-brained mechanical exercise. In other words, some see it as an 'art', others as a 'science'.

I suspect that the first group are more likely to appreciate Mr Douglas' book. They are seeking understanding and motivation in WHAT they need to do (apply a profitable strategy with consistency and discipline), while they see the development of the strategy itself as being an on-going, experiential journey....
Very well said.
The trend always ends.
  • #40
  • Mar 2, 2009 5:44am Mar 2, 2009 5:44am
Quoting Leonlorenzo
Unless ofcourse, you really dont want the money asociated with trading but instead are after the thrills. In that case maby the person does need a book to sort out their mental issues.
I think that's the core issue. Ed Seykota, the trader, said that "Everyone gets what they want from the market." and he was referring to their emotional needs, not making money.

Everyone approaches the markets as a means to make money, but they bring with them their emotional baggage, and everyone has baggage. Perhaps some people are able to not let it get in their way at all, but I suspect most are affected by it. This is the heart of all the trading psychology...getting the baggage out of your way so you can make money. It doesn't matter if it's greed, fear, anger, etc, it's an emotional impediment that needs to be dealt with.

If one doesn't need any psychological help, then great for them. But after living 50 years, I can count on one hand the people I've met that fit that description.
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