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Can Brokers see your MT4 EA/Indicators and Codes?

  • #41
  • Mar 18, 2007 9:53am Mar 18, 2007 9:53am
Quoting hedger
Once again, broker can not see any source code of client's indicators or EA. Broker can only see a log file of client's activity, and, in case of abuse server by client's EA, broker can block usage of EA by customer.

Look into source code of your EA and log file of your terminal. I think, EA you mentioned was produced tooooo frequent wrong requests to server.

How do you know that for a fact?? Have you sniffed packets that are transmitted between MT4 and mt4 server?
This is software...just baselessly trusting metaquotes to not include that makes no sense to me.
I dont really care or have time to do it but I wouldn't be surprised if this is reported.
  • #42
  • Mar 18, 2007 9:54am Mar 18, 2007 9:54am
Quoting lwojtow
I don't like conspiracy theories but I see a very valid reason why they would want to see an EA's code: They could backtest it (yes, backtesting is reliable when you have reliable data and do it properly) and if it's profitable they can do at least two things:
1. Hedge your position on the market as they know that in long term you win,or
2. Give you bigger slippage, put you on manual or anything to destroy edge of your system.

Unfortunatelly, mt4 is the best platform I've seen and we don't have much choice here. That's why I like open source software so much.
L
Neoticker is a better platform in my view. Only thing that Mt4 really provides is low barrier to entry (free) at least in the beginning. But you pay for it regardless - the broker builds that cost in.
  • #43
  • Mar 19, 2007 12:14pm Mar 19, 2007 12:14pm
Quoting zarni
How do you know that for a fact?? Have you sniffed packets that are transmitted between MT4 and mt4 server?
This is software...just baselessly trusting metaquotes to not include that makes no sense to me.
I dont really care or have time to do it but I wouldn't be surprised if this is reported.
MetaTrader is well known certified commercial product. Just thought, what will happen if this product will be discovered with stole of copyright-protected private source code...
  • #44
  • Mar 19, 2007 12:36pm Mar 19, 2007 12:36pm
MT4 is like any other program and runs compiled code. This means that it doesn't actually have the english code available. It doesn't even know what will happen inside an if statement, unless that if statement condition is satisfied. You make your EA, Indicator, Script and save the what you know as your code in a file *.mq4. You can't run this unless you compile it and make a *.ex4 file. This is what MT4 executes.

There is know known way to decompile this code. That is why you have people selling EAs that expire. They know it won't be usable. If there was a decompiler, someone would have heard of it and it would be prevalent. It would be foolish to assume that Metatrader and ALL of its clients, and brokers that use the software, could keep a decompiler secret.

You can rest assured that your code is invisible to the broker.

Another note: This is a client side program. Meaning you send a signal (buy,sell,etc) and it executes it. It doesn't care if you are on your home computer, work computer, laptop, or logged on from multiple computers at the same time. It doesn't care since it just waits for a signal to do something.

If you want to do an experiment to see if your code is being transferred to the broker(for you nonbelievers) just place an if(false) {dumby code} in your EA. You can then make this dumby code ridiculusly large, say 10 Mb. This won't cause your ea to run slower since it will never get in this if statement, but since it is still code and the compiler never evaluates this if(false) statement to trim code size, all the dumby code will be transferred (if indeed this happened). You would be able to see the transfer amount increase and increase as your broker takes your EA trap.
  • #45
  • Mar 19, 2007 1:08pm Mar 19, 2007 1:08pm
  •  tesla
  • Joined Oct 2006 | Status: Friendly Neighborhood Programmer | 533 Posts
Flareup's a smart guy and right about much of this. MetaTrader does not require — nor even care about — the source code.

One correction though. It IS possible to decompile MetaTrader4 ex4 files.


Quoting flareup
MT4 is like any other program and runs compiled code. This means that it doesn't actually have the english code available. It doesn't even know what will happen inside an if statement, unless that if statement condition is satisfied. You make your EA, Indicator, Script and save the what you know as your code in a file *.mq4. You can't run this unless you compile it and make a *.ex4 file. This is what MT4 executes.

There is know known way to decompile this code. That is why you have people selling EAs that expire. They know it won't be usable. If there was a decompiler, someone would have heard of it and it would be prevalent. It would be foolish to assume that Metatrader and ALL of its clients, and brokers that use the software, could keep a decompiler secret.
  • #46
  • Mar 19, 2007 1:18pm Mar 19, 2007 1:18pm
Quoting hedger
MetaTrader is well known certified commercial product. Just thought, what will happen if this product will be discovered with stole of copyright-protected private source code...

Do you know that Sony and Microsoft have both distributed spyware/malware within their code....Those are just examples.
Just because it is a commercial product doesn't guarantee much...
Also I was not saying it was reporting the source code although that too is not within the realms of impossibility - I was saying that it may be reporting the fact that an EA was executing certain orders...
  • #47
  • Mar 19, 2007 1:20pm Mar 19, 2007 1:20pm
Quoting flareup
MT4 is like any other program and runs compiled code. This means that it doesn't actually have the english code available. It doesn't even know what will happen inside an if statement, unless that if statement condition is satisfied. You make your EA, Indicator, Script and save the what you know as your code in a file *.mq4. You can't run this unless you compile it and make a *.ex4 file. This is what MT4 executes.

There is know known way to decompile this code. That is why you have people selling EAs that expire. They know it won't be usable. If there was a decompiler, someone would have heard of it and it would be prevalent. It would be foolish to assume that Metatrader and ALL of its clients, and brokers that use the software, could keep a decompiler secret.

You can rest assured that your code is invisible to the broker.

Another note: This is a client side program. Meaning you send a signal (buy,sell,etc) and it executes it. It doesn't care if you are on your home computer, work computer, laptop, or logged on from multiple computers at the same time. It doesn't care since it just waits for a signal to do something.

If you want to do an experiment to see if your code is being transferred to the broker(for you nonbelievers) just place an if(false) {dumby code} in your EA. You can then make this dumby code ridiculusly large, say 10 Mb. This won't cause your ea to run slower since it will never get in this if statement, but since it is still code and the compiler never evaluates this if(false) statement to trim code size, all the dumby code will be transferred (if indeed this happened). You would be able to see the transfer amount increase and increase as your broker takes your EA trap.
All EA code is decompilable... EX4 is a little tougher but it too is decompilable...
  • #48
  • Mar 19, 2007 2:18pm Mar 19, 2007 2:18pm
L,

I've already explained this in detail...IF the broker were to spend any time trying to figure out how well your EA performs, it would be a waste because in order to successfully trade against multiple EAs would require arbitrage PER CLIENT. Any type of hedging against a single EA could cause another EA to be successful. Furthermore, you're also assuming that a person uses an EA and never ever tweaks it. If someone were to tweak their EA often how would the broker combat this?

The slippage argument is somewhat moot because you can tell your EA how much you're willing to get slipped...otherwise, the order doesn't execute, end of story.

Like I said, folks, even if they COULD see your EAs, there is no way that a broker is going to put nearly as much effort as you are into figuring out how to best combat the EA. That coupled with the fact that the broker would have to figure out how best to trade against MULTIPLE EAs and you're barking up the wrong tree. There are TOO many variables for a broker to care how well YOUR single system did for them to worry about it.

They're simple solution is what I've said all along. They keep losing positions in house for as long as they can and they sell winning positions (by either offsetting it with other client's positions or selling to a third party bank).

Seriously, the very simple solution here is to place the buy/sell logic inside a separate DLL if ya'll or so paranoid...otherwise, I'm of the opinion that traders should be more concerned with their ability to trade and less with how they're getting screwed by their broker.

Seriously...who really cares if the broker can see your trading method other than for issues with copyright. Is that what everyone here is concerned about? Copyright?

Quoting lwojtow
I don't like conspiracy theories but I see a very valid reason why they would want to see an EA's code: They could backtest it (yes, backtesting is reliable when you have reliable data and do it properly) and if it's profitable they can do at least two things:
1. Hedge your position on the market as they know that in long term you win,or
2. Give you bigger slippage, put you on manual or anything to destroy edge of your system.

Unfortunatelly, mt4 is the best platform I've seen and we don't have much choice here. That's why I like open source software so much.
L
  • #49
  • Mar 19, 2007 2:24pm Mar 19, 2007 2:24pm
Z,

The "spyware" that Sony released did not transfer copyrighted information from the user to Sony. Not that they couldn't, but Sony was smarter than to expose themselves to that possibility.

With that said, you're right...anything is possible. However, I find it highly unlikely that IF the brokers DID expose themselves to this liability that:
1) they could actually use the information in such a way that by trading against 1 EA that it does not give an advantage to another EA.
2) they would actually want to waste time when the theory behind the business is simple...house as many losses as you can, hedge as many positive positions as you can and sell the rest.


Quoting zarni
Do you know that Sony and Microsoft have both distributed spyware/malware within their code....Those are just examples.
Just because it is a commercial product doesn't guarantee much...
Also I was not saying it was reporting the source code although that too is not within the realms of impossibility - I was saying that it may be reporting the fact that an EA was executing certain orders...
  • #50
  • Mar 19, 2007 3:43pm Mar 19, 2007 3:43pm
Quoting mrmikal
Z,

The "spyware" that Sony released did not transfer copyrighted information from the user to Sony. Not that they couldn't, but Sony was smarter than to expose themselves to that possibility.

With that said, you're right...anything is possible. However, I find it highly unlikely that IF the brokers DID expose themselves to this liability that:
1) they could actually use the information in such a way that by trading against 1 EA that it does not give an advantage to another EA.
2) they would actually want to waste time when the theory behind the business is simple...house as many losses as you can, hedge as many positive positions as you can and sell the rest.
Who said anything about copyright information...all i said is it may be reporting back saying that an EA is initiating the orders...that's all..

By the way Sony was a trojan. You could use it to do much more than just get copyright info...
  • #51
  • Mar 19, 2007 5:25pm Mar 19, 2007 5:25pm
Z,

I didn't disagree with what you posted...I'm just dealing with what I believe to be true, namely:
- Sony DIDN'T transfer any copyrighted information...of course the trojan could have done that, but the fact remains, they didn't (to my knowledge)
- What you're saying is true, brokers CAN and DO determine that a trade came from an EA...this has long been established
- Brokers PROBABLY don't see the EA code that generated it...meaning they don't see the actual EA..they just determine that your order came from an EA
- Brokers PROBABLY won't use that information even if they could see it because it would only be marginally useful for them...and probably not worth their effort to try and counter-act every single EA being used.
- Anything is possible...but just because it is possible doesn't make conjecture any more truthful than it is.

Quoting zarni
Who said anything about copyright information...all i said is it may be reporting back saying that an EA is initiating the orders...that's all..

By the way Sony was a trojan. You could use it to do much more than just get copyright info...
  • #52
  • Mar 19, 2007 6:00pm Mar 19, 2007 6:00pm
Quoting mrmikal
Z,

I didn't disagree with what you posted...I'm just dealing with what I believe to be true, namely:
- Sony DIDN'T transfer any copyrighted information...of course the trojan could have done that, but the fact remains, they didn't (to my knowledge)
- What you're saying is true, brokers CAN and DO determine that a trade came from an EA...this has long been established
- Brokers PROBABLY don't see the EA code that generated it...meaning they don't see the actual EA..they just determine that your order came from an EA
- Brokers PROBABLY won't use that information even if they could see it because it would only be marginally useful for them...and probably not worth their effort to try and counter-act every single EA being used.
- Anything is possible...but just because it is possible doesn't make conjecture any more truthful than it is.
Are you arguing with me or somebody else...
I think I was pretty clear...I never said Sony attempted nor did transfer copyrighted material. Nor did I imply MT4 would...or that brokers would find EA code useful...
  • #53
  • Mar 19, 2007 6:40pm Mar 19, 2007 6:40pm
Z,

I wasn't arguing with you...I was trying to state that you and I are on the same page, and that I was offering some clarification as to what I was thinking.

The tone sounds argumentative, I'm sure...but I assure you, I was merely trying to clarify my position, which is inline with yours.

Quoting zarni
Are you arguing with me or somebody else...
I think I was pretty clear...I never said Sony attempted nor did transfer copyrighted material. Nor did I imply MT4 would...or that brokers would find EA code useful...
  • #54
  • Apr 4, 2007 4:50am Apr 4, 2007 4:50am
Can they see the experts tab?
  • #55
  • Apr 4, 2007 5:28am Apr 4, 2007 5:28am
Quoting Scientist
Can they see the experts tab?
Sort of. Servers do provide a log, so they can see all trading activity. However, they cannot see Print statements from the experts tab if this is what you are asking for.
  • #56
  • Apr 4, 2007 5:56am Apr 4, 2007 5:56am
Quoting aktur
Sort of. Servers do provide a log, so they can see all trading activity. However, they cannot see Print statements from the experts tab if this is what you are asking for.
Thanks

Some experts print extensive info in the experts tab, that alone could make sense to someone with the knowledge.
  • #57
  • Mar 3, 2017 7:42pm Mar 3, 2017 7:42pm
Among the brokers that I've experimented with, the MT4(5) from the broker either connects to their own in-house server or, connects to an Amazon Web Services IP for cloud computing.

The above connection is required in order to have connectivity for placing orders, etc. This connection is via SSL so it's not straightforward to tell what is being communicated but I would think this part is legitimate.

The part that is questionable for me is, the obnoxiously and nearly-continuous connections from MT4(5) to MetaQuotes. Even a simple act of opening a chart in MT5 will attempt many connections with various subdomains of mql5.com

Of course this is via SSL so again, it's not straightforward to tell what is being communicated.

So to your point BurgerKing, I imagine the obnoxiously many connections to MetaQuotes could be to inform about what charts you're opening, what indicators you're using, how your account is performing, etc., and assuming they like what they see, I imagine it would be easy to leech any material from the platform directories such as experts or indicators if they so choose to.

I only know about networking as a hobby so I'm hoping other more knowledgable ForexFactory members will look into it and let it be known just what is being communicated between MT4(5) and MetaQuotes; I just tried looking into it myself and, I can capture the SSL traffic between my MT4(5) and MetaQuotes servers without any problems. The part I'm now having issues with is extracting the public certificate, identifying the encryption, creating the private certificate and then decrypting.

Maybe there is an easier way? If I figure it out, I'll post an update.
  • #58
  • Edited 9:57pm Oct 16, 2017 7:44pm | Edited 9:57pm
Hi, i am new to forex. I would like to know from you all, if i put an order (market order, pending order) with X lots, and then changing the SL/TP, trailing stop, etc. Lets say, the order is changed after 1 minute from our opening order time. I am sure that our broker can see all of that. But if some one out there can sniff to our network, what can he/she see (here i mean the BAD guy) ? Can he/she see all, including how big is our order (lots) ? And what is the effect / danger of that ? I hear that this bad guy at the end can break into your room, and takes all your hardware away ... ?? I am new in this field, so any information is welcome (especially how to solve this). Thank you very much in advance.
  • #59
  • Last Post: Apr 3, 2021 6:04pm Apr 3, 2021 6:04pm
Quoting BurgerKing
I am beginning to wonder that Brokers can actually see our EA and Custom Indicators codes. This one is very difficult to prove/disprove because sniffing at the internet packets without the knowing how data is passed between client to server is like barking at the wrong tree - therefore purely "argumentative". Do you have the same thought?
As far as I know, they can't see any of that, though to confirm you might need to look at the mt4/mt5 terminal source code. However, to my knowledge, when you place buy/sell orders, stop-loss, and take-profits, they have to be registered in the broker's system(so if you close mt4 with a trade still open, your stop-loss/take profit can still be hit while price moves).
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