For experienced and big money traders | Forex Factory

Options

Permalinks
Print Thread

Similar Threads

I made a list of resources for beginners and experienced traders 11 replies

4 hour trading system for newbies and experienced traders 4 replies

Question for experienced traders 0 replies

HELP needed from experienced traders 1 reply

Attachments: For experienced and big money traders
Exit Attachments

For experienced and big money traders

  • #1
  • First Post: Jan 20, 2009 3:13am Jan 20, 2009 3:13am
Hi,

I would like to ask you about the behavoir of accounts once they get bigger.

I mean, if you start an account with 1000 USD, you trade with a pip value of 1/1000 of account total and consistently make a 150pip weekly profit, in a year you would be close to 1.5 million.

150pip/week from my (very short) experience and from reading different blogs/forums/chats doesn't seem like a very difficult target for a good trader.

My question is: do brokers really allow you this kind of profit? or I'm missing something....

Another related question: How true is that they get compensated with the spread? Do they really earn money for every trade we make, or they only make money in the ones we loose?

Hope someone can help me get a better view.
  • #2
  • Jan 20, 2009 3:16am Jan 20, 2009 3:16am
Quoting tricello
Hi,

I would like to ask you about the behavoir of accounts once they get bigger.

I mean, if you start an account with 1000 USD, you trade with a pip value of 1/1000 of account total and consistently make a 150pip weekly profit, in a year you would be close to 1.5 million.

150pip/week from my (very short) experience and from reading different blogs/forums/chats doesn't seem like a very difficult target for a good trader.

My question is: do brokers really allow you this kind of profit? or I'm missing something....

Another related question:...
definately possible. focus on your whatever # of pips a day (and be careful not too loose a huge portion of your account with one bad trade) and soon you will be a rich man/women/martian
  • #3
  • Jan 20, 2009 3:58am Jan 20, 2009 3:58am
even if you are able to make 150 pips a week (which sounds easy, but is more like getting 52 green lights in a row driving through New York).... the drawdwon in terms of pips is what you should concern yourself with.

and if you can absorb huge drawdowns, your account will not grow from 1K to 1.5 mil.


forex is a game of math, and many accounts have been broken against that math..... known to the locals as overleveraging.
  • #4
  • Jan 20, 2009 4:03am Jan 20, 2009 4:03am
my question is at what stage in your account balance do you move from a market maker to a retail ECN, $20,000?

and at what stage do you go from an ECN to the next level up? what is that btw?
Grabbing the bull by the horns!
  • #5
  • Jan 20, 2009 4:07am Jan 20, 2009 4:07am
haha mr. goodman

in spite of our altercation earlier, i will ask you to simply think a minute...

why would you not enter an ECN from the beginning?

there are ECNs with no minimum balance requirements.

times have changed, mr. goodman. no need to fight buckets from the beginning if unecessary.
  • #6
  • Jan 20, 2009 4:51am Jan 20, 2009 4:51am
I'm talking about always trading with a 1 USD for every 1000 USD in account pip value. Would you consider that overleverage?

I wasn't questioning the difficulty of making 150 pips/week...I know it's not easy, but I'm sure that many good traders can do it on a consistent basis.

What I want to know is that if brokers apply the same criteria for filling orders, closing positions, etc when you have a 1000USD account or when you have accumulated let's say 100,000 in profits....
  • #7
  • Jan 20, 2009 5:11am Jan 20, 2009 5:11am
I think the point is that accruing 150 pips per week on average is not the same as achieving 150 pips per week every week. A strategy with a positive expectancy can still fail if MM does not allow for reasonable drawdown - and the longer a strategy is executed with extreme MM, the more likely it is to be devastated by strings of losses which will occur, and are to be expected with any strategy.

As for your question, I'd say have a read on darkstar's thread on the structure of forex brokers. A bucket shop who does not hedge even the consistently profitable traders will consider them to be a liability, effectively taking profits out of their coffers. They certainly will have economic incentive to place them on 'maual execution' or delay their orders. Even the bucket shops will not 'bucket' all their trades though if they want to stick around for any length of time in this viral world. It takes a lifetime to build a reputation and only a second to ruin it. Each broker is different though and should be judged on their own merit.
  • #8
  • Jan 20, 2009 5:47am Jan 20, 2009 5:47am
Quoting tdion
haha mr. goodman

in spite of our altercation earlier, i will ask you to simply think a minute...

why would you not enter an ECN from the beginning?

there are ECNs with no minimum balance requirements.

times have changed, mr. goodman. no need to fight buckets from the beginning if unecessary.
is that rate of a commission a fixed rate or is it on a sliding scale depending on lot size... the question is whether the spread plus commission is cheaper or dearer then the market maker spread?
Grabbing the bull by the horns!
  • #9
  • Jan 20, 2009 5:51am Jan 20, 2009 5:51am
with volume the commission goes (you can push) lower.
  • #10
  • Jan 20, 2009 7:21am Jan 20, 2009 7:21am
Quoting tricello
What I want to know is that if brokers apply the same criteria for filling orders, closing positions, etc when you have a 1000USD account or when you have accumulated let's say 100,000 in profits....
In the world of forex, if not the world of retail forex forums, $100k is still peanuts. I spoke to UBS last week about opening an fx trading account : they weren't interested in opening an account with less than $300k, with $300k (3 lots) as the min position size. I naively thought they would be impressed by my trading 10 lots... they basically rolled their eyes, so to speak !

I think fti, a former forex bank trader, posted on his thread that $10m (100 lots) is a very small deal in that world.

In any event, a $100k account with a broker like Interactive Brokers (my primary broker for years) should get you far better service and spreads than a $1k account at a typical retail bucket shop.
  • #11
  • Edited 7:40am Jan 20, 2009 7:22am | Edited 7:40am
I see all over this forum the obsession with quantifying trades in terms of pips.

Why is this?

Pips are not what is important or a good way to communicate the concept of a person's trade. All that matters to me is Return on trade and Return on Account and Draw Down, and Risk of ruin.

This talk of how many pips to make is without any meaning, because it has no relationship between one trade opportunity and another if pips are the determining discussion. It's all about ROI !
  • #12
  • Jan 20, 2009 7:57am Jan 20, 2009 7:57am
Quoting thatwasme
I see all over this forum the obsession with quantifying trades in terms of pips.

Why is this?

Pips are not what is important or a good way to communicate the concept of a person's trade. All that matters to me is Return on trade and Return on Account and Draw Down, and Risk of ruin.

This talk of how many pips to make is without any meaning, because it has no relationship between one trade opportunity and another if pips are the determining discussion. It's all about ROI !
it is for the purpose of comparison without revealing your account or trade size.

it can also be expressed in terms of % gain.

offtopic.
  • #13
  • Edited 9:08am Jan 20, 2009 8:25am | Edited 9:08am
Quoting piccolo
it is for the purpose of comparison without revealing your account or trade size.

it can also be expressed in terms of % gain.

offtopic.
I don't see how this is off topic in a discussion about will a broker allow a profit or positive ROI. Why does the discussion of ROI reveal account size, as opposed to pips which could be any lot size? I Think that ROI is the correct comparison vehicle to represent different types of trading.
  • #14
  • Jan 20, 2009 3:17pm Jan 20, 2009 3:17pm
Quoting thatwasme
I see all over this forum the obsession with quantifying trades in terms of pips.

Why is this?

Pips are not what is important or a good way to communicate the concept of a person's trade. All that matters to me is Return on trade and Return on Account and Draw Down, and Risk of ruin.

This talk of how many pips to make is without any meaning, because it has no relationship between one trade opportunity and another if pips are the determining discussion. It's all about ROI !
Well said buddy..

I use the attached i-profit indicator (for MT4) as a rough benchmark which I use to give me a feel for my ROI progress. You may like to try it as is or you can adapt in the code to show what you want.

I attach two versions.. one to show both %s only and the original to show %s and values. Easy enough to publish pics of %s only.. which doesnt breach personal confidentiality on size of trade..Maybe the way to go?
NB the i-profit output display depends on the timeframe you choose in Account History tab in your MT4 terminal tab. ....ie...Today/Last three days/Last week/last month/ last quarter/ or all history.
Play with it and youll soon get the trick.

I find it a good tool on which to judge my real progress.
Hope you may find it useful.

Acknowledgement and thanks to KimIV the russian programmer of this Indi. for placing it in the public domain. http://www.kimiv.ru
Attached File(s)
File Type: mq4 i-Profit.mq4   15 KB | 490 downloads
File Type: mq4 i-Profit-Percent.mq4   15 KB | 480 downloads
  • #15
  • Jan 20, 2009 7:07pm Jan 20, 2009 7:07pm
Tell me How you would Trade to Gain 150P during the week posted in the Image.

Then...

Tell me How you would control your MM the following week.

Setting Targets of either 'X' P or 'X' % / Timeframe is Futile.

{"I want 150 P/Week but Last Week I Lost 80P so I really need 230 P This Week. Guess I gotta Raise the Lots."}

This will result in not being able to afford an Internet Connection, never mind a Trading Account.

Just my opinion.
I prefer to analyze every Trade Before I Enter it including where I EXPECT to Exit.
AND...
How much of My Account I will Risk in the event that I am wrong. {Still happens more than I would like}

Once I'm IN, then it's about watching the Price to make sure that I Still Want to be IN.

I am constantly asking myself...
Do I still like this Trade or should I get Out?
Can I exceed my Expectations? If so, where should I place my Trailer?

Following this procedure, I take whatever I can from every Single Trade. Even if it is a Loss. {which I attempt to minimize.}
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: 1 Hour x 1 Week Channel.PNG Size: 105 KB
  • #16
  • Jan 23, 2009 10:27pm Jan 23, 2009 10:27pm
Quoting thatwasme
I don't see how this is off topic in a discussion about will a broker allow a profit or positive ROI. Why does the discussion of ROI reveal account size, as opposed to pips which could be any lot size? I Think that ROI is the correct comparison vehicle to represent different types of trading.
I said pips because that's how I estimated making 1.5 mil in a year, considering that pip value increased with account size. I guess you could to the same considering a 15% weekly profit (based on your balance from the beggining of the week). As i said, I'm really not questioning the difficulty/profitability of making 150 pips a week, but if someone has experience having such a big ROI and how the conditions of trading changed during the growth.
  • #17
  • Last Post: Jan 24, 2009 1:54pm Jan 24, 2009 1:54pm
Quoting tricello
Hi,

I would like to ask you about the behavoir of accounts once they get bigger.

I mean, if you start an account with 1000 USD, you trade with a pip value of 1/1000 of account total and consistently make a 150pip weekly profit, in a year you would be close to 1.5 million.

150pip/week from my (very short) experience and from reading different blogs/forums/chats doesn't seem like a very difficult target for a good trader.

My question is: do brokers really allow you this kind of profit? or I'm missing something....

Another related question:...
I used to think the broker would play fair for quite a while and all the stories out there about them trying their best to cheat you were just made up stories from losers ... until I actually bumped into someone who turned $100 into $500k in 4 weeks flat.

I know it sounds impossible but I've confirmed the facts so we can safely assume it is true.

Bottom line is one fine day the broker suspended his account released only one third of his money and claimed he wouldn't get the rest as his account was under investigation for malpractice.

When he threatened to complain to the NFA the broker said he can't as they were not directly registered with the NFA but there subsidary (a compant called retailfx ) was and he wasnt trading with the subsidary.

When I enquired about opening an account I asked the very same broker if they were registered with the NFA I knew they weren't but asked anyway just to see their respponse. They responded by saying they were not directly registered with the NFA but their subsidary was and THEREFORE I could always approach the NFA in case of a dispute!

This is an outright lie!!

All they wanted to know is how much money I would be depositing and when i said $100 they said, thats no good, they recommend atleast a $1000 and told me if I did I'd get a bonus of $500. (This is theoretically true you have a much better chance of surviving if they larger you're your account is). When I went on to explain that 95% of traders lose money they said "not their customers" and that "I should have a positive attitude" and they would assign me an "account manager who would advise me so I shouldn't worry"

This is all a lie the only reason they give you a $500 bonus with a $1000 account is because they know all to well you're going to lose it anyway so why not gut the customer for a larger sum of money as he probably wont come back anyway whether he starts with a $100 or a $1000.

As I hang around the chat I've seen how they pretend to tell unsuspecting novices about how easy it is to make money etc.... There was this one noob who went beserk and just placed 4 trades with insane leverage and turned $400 to $8k in 2 days because he was just lucky ..... no other reason. Well he promptly received an email from the broker with a "thats not the way to trade blah blah"

So I've concluded brokers are probabally the most deceitful people on the face of the planet. They spare no when, not school techers, housewifes, eldererly retired folks, women ..... no one with their wilfull lies. They'll do almost anything to get your money.

This is my reply to your question which was "do brokers really allow you this kind of profit" and about about what happens when your account gets bigger. I've seen it first hand. Its possible this is a singular experience and their are other more scrupulos brokers out there but I'm not inclined to think so.
0 traders viewing now