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Can MT4 Brokers see your EA/Indi 33 replies

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Can Brokers see your MT4 EA/Indicators and Codes?

  • #21
  • Mar 14, 2007 9:34am Mar 14, 2007 9:34am
Quoting BurgerKing
Last September, I was trading at IBFX. The helpdesk specifically asked me if I was using EA to trade... Hmm they know I was using EA? Last Nov, I have to request MIGFX to enable EA trading (after my EA failed to execute). After then, I believe that they can know/determine if the trade is from EA or not.


IBFX is very sensitive when it comes to news trading or scalping. If you are trading with a EA I guess they can tell by your trades (example if your EA straddles around news time).
  • #22
  • Mar 14, 2007 10:04am Mar 14, 2007 10:04am
Quoting Scientist
IBFX is very sensitive when it comes to news trading or scalping. If you are trading with a EA I guess they can tell by your trades (example if your EA straddles around news time).
They dont care whether you straddle. The widened pip spread already put you out of business, unless you straddle more than 20pips. That is not an issue for them, coz they can pick up your order later, normally they freeze platform for about 5seconds ~ 2minutes during hyper active financial event, depends on the volatility. If they have hedged enough position, they'll put you in the trade, if not, they will decide the 1st move after release from the freeze to put you near the stop loss and widen the spread to put you out of business. I saw price from the wholesale market, and comparing to my North Finance and InterbankFX account, guess what?! There is no initial spike!!! Therefore, if you see short NFP, preNFP has a long long initial spike up to take you hedge order, thats the optimized move from the trigger routine on their server. Guess why they need 2 server to seperate live and demo?! Use your brain and think about it. If you dont have 1, use your dick. WHAT?! DONT HAVE?!!! LOL... just kidding.

Quoting Abhi
There was a question in MQL4.com forum whether brokers can "see" the sources of indicators and experts of their clients or not. Unfortunately this thread seems to be deleted. At least I couldn't find it.

But their answer was that they can't. So, this is the "official" answer.

Technically, this is possible of course to program such an "option" for a broker that they can. I don't know if we should believe their official answer or not, but if you would be a programmer of MetaTrader, wouldn't you write this little backdoor into it? Or if you would be the owner of MetaTrader, what would you do?

I wouldn't make this option public for each and every broker, because this info would leak sooner or later. But I would think about making such an option somehow.
If I'm a snatch theft, will I bring my car near and give you a "honk" before I grab your PIPS?! If I have a brokeriege firm, I will definitely hunt you to make some quick bucks. Even you go Las Vegas, every once in a while you'll hear somebody get a jackpot. The broker is not neccessarily to hunt you everytime. As I mentioned previously, they do it once in awhile. You can do it this way to prove I'm a lier, make a small trade 0.01lot, put your stop loss at yesterday low/high, open up your tick chart, see what happened when price get near to your stop loss. Few bucks to find out the truth, worth it! and save a lot of saliver from explaining.

Regards,

David
  • #23
  • Mar 14, 2007 10:18am Mar 14, 2007 10:18am
Some friend of mine just complain this issue to me again...(yawn...)

Quote
FutureMillionaire?
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: An Englishman living in Scotland, UK
Posts: 243
http://www.forex-tsd.com/images/repu...tation_pos.gif


Quote:
Originally Posted by FutureMillionaire?
I just lost my internet for about 15 minutes. When I finally managed to restore things, my MT4 platforms updated themselves. It could be seen, from the candles, that the price had, whilst I was off, gone through a T/P level (It was a sell, T/P set to 1.3147, and the price had fallen to 1.3142 - EURUSD). The trade didn't complete in my absence .. and, of course, the price has now moved back above my T/P.

Why didn't it trigger?

I thought that, once the EA had setup a trade, it would carry out the order, even if the connection was lost.

http://www.forex-tsd.com/images/smil...used_smile.gif


It happened again, whilst I was live online.... This was a live account, so I logged into the IBFX online chat. This was the conversation...


Chat InformationThank you for contacting us. The next available agent will be right with you. Our goal is quality service. You may tell us how we do today by clicking HERE.
Chat InformationYou are now chatting with 'Client Services 30'
Client Services 30: Hello, this is Jeffery. How may I help you?
you: I've currently got a trade on EURUSD. It's a sell, with a T/P of 1.3147. The price fell to 1.3142. Why didn't it trigger?
Client Services 30: If the spread was wide at the time it may not have triggered. let me look into that for you. one moment please.
you: I watched it go down to that level a second time, and the spread was normal then (I had the same thought)
you: It went to 1.3146 the second time
Client Services 30: can you tell what times you are looking at?
you: Now.... within the last hour
you: The previous candle on the M30 chart
Client Services 30: at 13:16 and 13:17 AM the spread was 6 pips
you: Ouch!
you: Why?
Client Services 30: I am not sure what the extra volatility was at that time.
you: OK Thanks.

6 pips has rather a detrimental effect on the EAs. I'm up to 6 trades on my 10points3 ... it's rather important that the move closes successfully. Needless to say, the price is now moving against me http://www.forex-tsd.com/images/smilies/sad_smile.gif


and there is another picture here to share with you guys. BEWARE OF HUNTING STOPS.

http://www.marco-family.co.uk/big_spread.jpg

Regards,

David
  • #24
  • Mar 14, 2007 11:07am Mar 14, 2007 11:07am
Quoting davidke20
They dont care whether you straddle. The widened pip spread already put you out of business, unless you straddle more than 20pips. That is not an issue for them, coz they can pick up your order later, normally they freeze platform for about 5seconds ~ 2minutes during hyper active financial event, depends on the volatility. If they have hedged enough position, they'll put you in the trade, if not, they will decide the 1st move after release from the freeze to put you near the stop loss and widen the spread to put you out of business. I saw price from the wholesale market, and comparing to my North Finance and InterbankFX account, guess what?! There is no initial spike!!! Therefore, if you see short NFP, preNFP has a long long initial spike up to take you hedge order, thats the optimized move from the trigger routine on their server. Guess why they need 2 server to seperate live and demo?! Use your brain and think about it. If you dont have 1, use your dick. WHAT?! DONT HAVE?!!! LOL... just kidding.


They do care, if you are successful. Visit the IBFX forums and do a search on scalping. Obviously some people were so they had to come up with rules about scalping...
  • #25
  • Mar 14, 2007 11:38am Mar 14, 2007 11:38am
EA sends sell/buy signals differently as manual trades are executed and yes they can see it, disable it, give strange quotes to make your EA act funny if they would wish it.

InterbankFX states that if trades are opened and closed within 3 minutes it is considered scalping and they disallow it. Anything longer is still scalping but they can cope with it. I believe its because of the broker trade mechanics (they have to put the trades through a clearing house, at least everything that is not micro and mini).

EAs ARE BUGGY! There a lot of lame programmers and wannabe programmers that create EAs that would open/close 10 trades per second.. they have to keep an eye on it and how it burdens their systems.

I am quite sure they cannot see your code. That would be a major violation of copyrights and all that. Lawyers would hang them for that.
  • #26
  • Mar 14, 2007 11:41am Mar 14, 2007 11:41am
Quoting Scientist
They do care, if you are successful. Visit the IBFX forums and do a search on scalping. Obviously some people were so they had to come up with rules about scalping...
you can create an EA that scalps one pip on 2 spread pair. so basically it eats on the "noise". 1 pip is not much but what if it wins every 25 seconds..
  • #27
  • Mar 14, 2007 1:06pm Mar 14, 2007 1:06pm
Quoting smjones
So is this a qustion of morals, or did you want to know the reason? The reason is probably over limit on orders. I have never been good at figuring out someone else's morality. LOL

I'm just saying that if the broker has a limit on the number of open trades I can have at one time then their system should reject any orders I request that exceeds the limit.
{Spam Removed}
  • #28
  • Mar 14, 2007 10:06pm Mar 14, 2007 10:06pm
The original poster has a legitimate question: can brokers see (steal) our EAs. Obviously if the answer were yes there would be a huge uproar and this is not something that MetaQuotes could survive. I'm not a skilled enough programmer but there are plenty of programmers who could find the answer out for sure and I think if brokers did it would be known. The EA code would have to be uploaded through MT by passing through the internet, any network sniffer could pick this up. Of course they would encrypt the source file but I agree that it would violate copyright laws and many others.

I do believe that the MQ Championship is partly done to get your EA which you must send them although they say they will not decompile them. Since they wrote the software they could decompile them easily if they wanted.

For most brokers the client using an EA is just another way to take the client's money, otherwise they would not offer MT at all. My understanding is that most brokers take the opposite side of trades so they only get interested in what the client is doing when the client starts making money.

A previous poster mentioned the cost of transactions and canceled transactions. I think he meant a cost as in excessive load on the servers. But on a demo account since the servers are separate I don't see them caring too much since the result of slowing down a demo server are not as important as live servers.

Hope that helped.
  • #29
  • Mar 14, 2007 10:58pm Mar 14, 2007 10:58pm
I don't know if there's a way they can "see" what one is using, but I have noticed something happens periodically on MT4 (I am using NF).

I use snoopfree utility to block key and screen loggers. Often when I happen to open a file in the Meta Editor, and periodically though randomly, and usually when a major change is made, I get the "screen access attempt" warning, so I think that maybe there's a system that takes screen shots from the platforms from time to time.

This happens on demo or real account as well.
  • #30
  • Mar 15, 2007 5:07am Mar 15, 2007 5:07am
Quoting doblece
I don't know if there's a way they can "see" what one is using...
They can definitely see the filenames of experts and scripts that opened orders. I know.
  • #31
  • Mar 15, 2007 1:24pm Mar 15, 2007 1:24pm
Quoting doblece
I don't know if there's a way they can "see" what one is using, but I have noticed something happens periodically on MT4 (I am using NF).

I use snoopfree utility to block key and screen loggers. Often when I happen to open a file in the Meta Editor, and periodically though randomly, and usually when a major change is made, I get the "screen access attempt" warning, so I think that maybe there's a system that takes screen shots from the platforms from time to time.

This happens on demo or real account as well.
I just installed this program. It also says ZoneAlarm firewall reads your screen. My guess is there are valid reasons it might do this to provide functionality but I could be wrong.
  • #32
  • Mar 16, 2007 8:43pm Mar 16, 2007 8:43pm
Quoting nvwine
My last post would not apply to you since you are not using IBFX. I misunderstood. As far as EAs go check with the broker before opening a live account. Some brokers have specific rules pertaining to EAs. For example:
I think you are right but you are quoting the biggest bullshitters in history of forex being Klaus Richter from neuimex.
Neuimexis a bucket shop and hence there is 0 i repeat zero cost to them of any multiple limit orders...
the reason why they hate it is you may get a better price which of course they don't want...
  • #33
  • Mar 16, 2007 9:16pm Mar 16, 2007 9:16pm
Quoting zarni
I think you are right but you are quoting the biggest bullshitters in history of forex being Klaus Richter from neuimex.
Neuimexis a bucket shop and hence there is 0 i repeat zero cost to them of any multiple limit orders...
the reason why they hate it is you may get a better price which of course they don't want...
You are correct. I was trying to show how brokers have special rules that apply to certain types of trading and / or trading with an EA. Using Klaus was a poor choice for my example. Especially considering Neuimex's problems. Here are a couple of better examples.

An email I received from IBFX already posted on FF. I do not know if this is the current limit but it was last fall.

From MIG's website concerning spreads.
Quote
We do accept scalpers but since it is difficult to cover such positions in the market, we will increase the spreads for clients with scalping strategies.
  • #34
  • Mar 16, 2007 10:04pm Mar 16, 2007 10:04pm
OK, see...here's the thing as I understand it.

You, me, the little guy, etc...we seem to want it all. But we seem to be failing to understand the true dynamics of the situation.

Here is the issue...if we want instant liquidity (meaning our orders to go through), and we want FIXED spreads, we need to accept the fact that the BROKERS will have to incur the risk.

For those of you who like to point out the CFTC or NFA registry brokers with thier paltry numbers, you will notice that while there are some brokers that have massive amounts of cash (excess net capital, etc), most of them pale in comparison to the size of the actual registered banks (check out UBS).

The point is this...IF the brokers have to eat the risk of an EA opening a million orders and possibly profiting from those transactions through scalping, then they're in big trouble because they can't off-load the profits onto offsetting positions...meaning they'll have to pay that money out of their pockets. That's why brokers do these "dirty tricks" everyone complains about...it's because they have to eat that risk.

This isn't necessarily an ethical issue, it's a matter of keeping the business afloat. Think, if you're currently with ANY broker that doesn't directly off-load ALL positions to a bank (which it probably can't due to settlement requirements), then you run the real risk of being with a broker that's likely to go out of business because of the very real danger that being on the wrong side of a lot of scalps poses. SO THIS IS WHY you will find that if you are labeled a "pattern scalper" that your trades will start taking longer to execute as they will be literally passing you off to a bank.

Now...keep going on that thought for a second...if they're off-loading your trade to a 3rd party, don't you think that 3rd party will then charge your broker for pending orders that may be canceled? Of course they would...that's why if you have hundreds of pending orders, or you modify your orders every 2 seconds (yes, believe it or not, some banks can charge for that too), your broker will incur a disproportionate cost on a single individual and thus do everything they can to stop you in order for THEM to stay solvent and not put the rest of their traders in a bad spot.

Look, brokerages are businesses...and if a brokerage caters mainly to small retail investors, you better believe that they'll do whatever they can to protect their business. So, in addition to their own trades with the banks, they'll find ways to make sure their customers don't make too much money while until they can pawn their trades off onto the banks. As you can imagine, that takes some time (it may not necessarily be lightning fast).

I just see this is the way you'd have to operate a business. I think of it like this...I imagine scalpers (people who can't stay in a trade longer than 3 minutes EVER...this doesn't mean you can't scalp...but people who do nothing but open as many trades and close as many as possible under that 3 minute mark) like people who go to a Best Buy or Circuit City and buy a product (like a video game), and then after a day or two of actually using the product, they return it for a full refund. Now, does this make scalpers bad people? no, of course not...but imagine if someone were to do this A LOT...always buy something, use and return it...they get some value (not a lot), but then return the product. If Best Buy allowed people this option, there would be a select few that would take advantage of this. Now, imagine what that would do to Best Buy as a company if lots of people were allowed to do this and took advantage of it...it would probably kill Best Buy.

Again...I'm not saying scalping is wrong, but if you're going to do it, you probably won't be successful (or allowed to do it for much longer) until you use platforms designed for that purpose (like ECNs that directly route your order). Those businesses are designed to handle those transactions and will probably not try and stop you.

All this talk of EA's and conspiracies serve no useful purpose in my opinion. If you're paranoid about whether or not your EA can be seen or used against you, then you have only a few options, right?
- don't use EAs
- move your code outside your EA (into a DLL)
- use a different platform

The idea that brokers would actually use your EAs against you is rather ridiculous. Unless an obnoxious number of people were using the same EA, the only way the broker could "counter trade" your EA is to artificially move the market for everyone. Think, if you and I use EXACTLY the opposite EA (like let's say you short an MA crossover, and I decide to go long), then what the hell is the broker going to do? The market would take care of itself, which is what it would have done anyways. The point is, why would a broker even want to expend that much energy trying to figure out what your EA does and then try to come up with an algorithm that trades against every single EA (not just yours) and is successful? and then STILL have to content with the actual market movement in order to prevent arbitrage. You guys are dreaming if you think any broker in their right mind would expend any sort of energy on that...it's ludicrous...imagine, how many clients, how many EAs how many variables and then on top of that having to contend with the actual market movement??? Why would they frickin care???
  • #35
  • Mar 17, 2007 11:58am Mar 17, 2007 11:58am
Broker can not see any of your source code. Your terminal only transfers commands to broker to perform any action with orders.
  • #36
  • Mar 17, 2007 1:30pm Mar 17, 2007 1:30pm
Quoting hedger
Broker can not see any of your source code. Your terminal only transfers commands to broker to perform any action with orders.
That may not be entirely true.
This is very possible that MT4 was coded to report any EA that is actively sending orders. I have not verified but there is no technical reason why that may not have been implemented by Metaquotes either at request of brokers or on their own volition...
I know for a fact one broker disabled an EA of my friends and when he asked what was going on they told him he was "abusing the system using an EA"...
  • #37
  • Mar 17, 2007 1:38pm Mar 17, 2007 1:38pm
well that just means that their EA was doing something wrong.

Quoting zarni
That may not be entirely true.
This is very possible that MT4 was coded to report any EA that is actively sending orders. I have not verified but there is no technical reason why that may not have been implemented by Metaquotes either at request of brokers or on their own volition...
I know for a fact one broker disabled an EA of my friends and when he asked what was going on they told him he was "abusing the system using an EA"...
  • #38
  • Mar 17, 2007 1:47pm Mar 17, 2007 1:47pm
Quoting piccolo
well that just means that their EA was doing something wrong.
It was just trailing stop loss.
  • #39
  • Mar 18, 2007 6:28am Mar 18, 2007 6:28am
Quoting zarni
That may not be entirely true.
This is very possible that MT4 was coded to report any EA that is actively sending orders. I have not verified but there is no technical reason why that may not have been implemented by Metaquotes either at request of brokers or on their own volition...
I know for a fact one broker disabled an EA of my friends and when he asked what was going on they told him he was "abusing the system using an EA"...
Once again, broker can not see any source code of client's indicators or EA. Broker can only see a log file of client's activity, and, in case of abuse server by client's EA, broker can block usage of EA by customer.

Look into source code of your EA and log file of your terminal. I think, EA you mentioned was produced tooooo frequent wrong requests to server.
  • #40
  • Mar 18, 2007 7:39am Mar 18, 2007 7:39am
Quoting mrmikal
Why would they frickin care???
I don't like conspiracy theories but I see a very valid reason why they would want to see an EA's code: They could backtest it (yes, backtesting is reliable when you have reliable data and do it properly) and if it's profitable they can do at least two things:
1. Hedge your position on the market as they know that in long term you win,or
2. Give you bigger slippage, put you on manual or anything to destroy edge of your system.

Unfortunatelly, mt4 is the best platform I've seen and we don't have much choice here. That's why I like open source software so much.
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