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Working together as a team

  • #1
  • First Post: Jul 29, 2005 6:21am Jul 29, 2005 6:21am
Merlin,

Where are the private team trader forums? I can't see them on the forum list anymore.

Diallist
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  • #2
  • Jul 29, 2005 3:33pm Jul 29, 2005 3:33pm
that initiative seemed to fizzle out, so i temporarily removed that forum (with permission). if there is interest in it again, i will enable that forum again.

i was actually sad to see it fall flat. i thought it was a great idea.
Relax and be happy.
  • #3
  • Jul 29, 2005 5:12pm Jul 29, 2005 5:12pm
Quoting merlin
that initiative seemed to fizzle out, so i temporarily removed that forum (with permission). if there is interest in it again, i will enable that forum again.

i was actually sad to see it fall flat. i thought it was a great idea.
It still is a good idea, but I think it fell flat for two reasons.

(1) It was too organized and formal. I think if everyone had simply started brainstorming ideas of what they'd like to try, and the the myriad of ideas that came forth were guided/tempered with the wisdom of the more experience traders, a few good ideas would have germinated. Once that had happened, THEN the different groups would have evolved on their own. No criticism of the originator is intended. Everyone respected him as leader and owner of the idea and I think everyone was just too polite to just jump in and go.

(2) It was just plain overshadowed by the rising star of the forum, James16, and the trading techniques he began sharing recently. Really now, who wants to grow a banana tree when there is a Banana Man giving away free bananas? (and peeling and slicing them to boot!)

Hmmm....maybe Jim should change his username to "Banana Man", and use the attached avatar
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  • #4
  • Jul 30, 2005 1:02pm Jul 30, 2005 1:02pm
Quoting fijitrader
I've seen other forums develop where someone posts a system that looks great because it caught a few recent moves. A bunch of people jump on the bandwagon to test it out and find that it has serious problems with previous out of sample data. Then a bunch of others jump in to resolve the whipsaw problems that plague most systems and the entire focus becomes about adding and combining filters to take the whipsaws out of the (now in-sample data) system. Once the system is properly curved fitted to show a profit in back testing they start trading it only to find it does not perform. Lots of energy is spent trying to solve that problem and eventually the thread dies out.
fiji, this is not a process provoked by forums, this is the process for ALL system development!! in your quote above, if you replace the forum members with a single person, this is exactly how i made systems when i was an experienced-newbie. and many other people do so as well, and i presume that is why you see it come out in the forums. this approach is backward to the scientific method, and why in the end no one makes any money from the system.

i think the "team trading" idea could work, but not for developing a quantitative system because quant systems require hundreds of hours of properly conducted research and an experienced eye. where i do think team trading could work is with a discretionary-technical approach (like james16) or a fundamental approach (which we dont find much in forex). if i were to trade based on fundamentals, i would think having a group to bounce ideas back and forth with would be a great resource.
Relax and be happy.
  • #5
  • Jul 31, 2005 8:54am Jul 31, 2005 8:54am
Hi Folks

There is only one person to blame for the team trading not going anywhere and that is me.

When I first came up with the thought it was mainly because of all the negative things going on in the forums at the time, and I thought we could try to make a positive experience for all.

Filler, Diallist and Merlin did a lot, to help with the team trading and although the initial response was great, it didn't come through once the "TT Forum" started.

We really didn't have much response to the polls we had regarding the trading styles people wanted.

Maybe we should have narrowed it down and just got started on something.

Since the idea came to me unfortunately/fortunately? I have been very busy with my business. Far more busy than usual this time of year.

In hindsight I would not have started anything had I known that I wasn't going to be able to invest the required amount of time and effort into it, for this I apologize to everyone.

Also,the limited time that I have had to check Forex Factory has caught my attention with James16' thread and ideas.
He is so far a head of me in my trading, that, like everyone else I'm now more interested in what Jim can teach me that what I can learn at this time on my own.

I have no problem stepping aside to follow a better man and look forward to anything, I can learn from anyone here, on this great forum.

Quinn
I started out with nothing, and I've got most of it left!
  • #6
  • Jul 31, 2005 12:56pm Jul 31, 2005 12:56pm
quinn, your response really impressed me. you seem like the kind of person that i like to work with because you leave your ego at the door, which is rare quality among traders.

you know what i was just thinking??? this forum IS team trading! traders are so different in their preferences that is hard to get a team of traders to agree any more than we already do, day to day, on this forum!

a lot of you guys dont realize that i get more out of this forum than anybody. if i have a bad trade or if im burnt on research, coming to FF to see my "team" does wonders
Relax and be happy.
  • #7
  • Jul 31, 2005 2:53pm Jul 31, 2005 2:53pm
Quoting quinn
Hi Folks

There is only one person to blame for the team trading not going anywhere and that is me.

When I first came up with the thought it was mainly because of all the negative things going on in the forums at the time, and I thought we could try to make a positive experience for all.

Filler, Diallist and Merlin did a lot, to help with the team trading and although the initial response was great, it didn't come through once the "TT Forum" started.

We really didn't have much response to the polls we had regarding the trading styles people wanted.

Maybe we should have narrowed it down and just got started on something.

Since the idea came to me unfortunately/fortunately? I have been very busy with my business. Far more busy than usual this time of year.

In hindsight I would not have started anything had I known that I wasn't going to be able to invest the required amount of time and effort into it, for this I apologize to everyone.

Also,the limited time that I have had to check Forex Factory has caught my attention with James16' thread and ideas.
He is so far a head of me in my trading, that, like everyone else I'm now more interested in what Jim can teach me that what I can learn at this time on my own.

I have no problem stepping aside to follow a better man and look forward to anything, I can learn from anyone here, on this great forum.

Quinn
Quinn,

Apologizing for having taken the initiative with a great idea? If I may borrow the words of an infamous poster, Quinn, "you crack me up"!

Your post shows clearly that you are a man's man; a cut above the rest; demonstrating a truly impressive show of character. Thanks for the benchmark!

Diallist
sxaxlxvxaxtxixoxnxbxyxgxrxaxcxexdxoxtxoxrxgx
  • #8
  • Jul 31, 2005 5:34pm Jul 31, 2005 5:34pm
Quoting quinn
Hi Folks

There is only one person to blame for the team trading not going anywhere and that is me.

When I first came up with the thought it was mainly because of all the negative things going on in the forums at the time, and I thought we could try to make a positive experience for all.

Filler, Diallist and Merlin did a lot, to help with the team trading and although the initial response was great, it didn't come through once the "TT Forum" started.

We really didn't have much response to the polls we had regarding the trading styles people wanted.

Maybe we should have narrowed it down and just got started on something.

Since the idea came to me unfortunately/fortunately? I have been very busy with my business. Far more busy than usual this time of year.

In hindsight I would not have started anything had I known that I wasn't going to be able to invest the required amount of time and effort into it, for this I apologize to everyone.

Also,the limited time that I have had to check Forex Factory has caught my attention with James16' thread and ideas.
He is so far a head of me in my trading, that, like everyone else I'm now more interested in what Jim can teach me that what I can learn at this time on my own.

I have no problem stepping aside to follow a better man and look forward to anything, I can learn from anyone here, on this great forum.

Quinn
you are one hell of a person quinn. people like you prosper in life and its easy to see why.
  • #9
  • Jul 31, 2005 7:18pm Jul 31, 2005 7:18pm
[quote=merlin]
Quote
fiji, this is not a process provoked by forums, this is the process for ALL system development!!

Since it was a forum we were talking about it didn't seem important to go into that. Aren't I long winded enough?

Quote
in your quote above, if you replace the forum members with a single person, this is exactly how i made systems when i was an experienced-newbie. and many other people do so as well, and i presume that is why you see it come out in the forums. this approach is backward to the scientific method, and why in the end no one makes any money from the system.
I could not agree more. Posting this will perhaps help those who have followed, or are following this approach, and getting frustrated. It is the perfect way to develop a curve fitted system that will stand a high probability of failure in the future.

Quote
i think the "team trading" idea could work, but not for developing a quantitative system because quant systems require hundreds of hours of properly conducted research and an experienced eye. where i do think team trading could work is with a discretionary-technical approach (like james16) or a fundamental approach (which we dont find much in forex). if i were to trade based on fundamentals, i would think having a group to bounce ideas back and forth with would be a great resource.
Perhaps the team trading idea could work. If so it would be nice to find a model where it has worked and find out what made it work. Then adapt the model here. Chances are it will fail if left to the normal processes that people apply to system development -- including fundamentals. I don't equate "normal" with "successful" since it is normal to fail at this.

FT

PS. If it sounds like I'm against the idea of a system develpment thread... I'm not. What I'm against is setting up models that are probably destined to fail. I think that having a previously successful model to work from is a critical but often overlooked component of devising a successful endeavor. So if planning and structuring such a forum sounds like an intelligent idea why not find the most successful one possible and figure out why it was successful and then use that as a model/template to work from?
  • #10
  • Jul 31, 2005 9:31pm Jul 31, 2005 9:31pm
i hear ya fiji. so where would one look for a good model to borrow? what group of people (all differing in ideas and philosophies) has gotten together in a team enviornment and been able to create something very sucessful?
Relax and be happy.
  • #11
  • Aug 2, 2005 12:20am Aug 2, 2005 12:20am
Quoting merlin
i hear ya fiji. so where would one look for a good model to borrow? what group of people (all differing in ideas and philosophies) has gotten together in a team enviornment and been able to create something very sucessful?
The olympic games!

Sorry but the answer does fit the question.

Unfortunately I don't have an answer right now but it seemed like a good idea to at least pose the question. I find that answers come more easily when the right question is asked and I think you've asked it.

Now if we narrow that down to trading... maybe not just yet... often the best solutions come from borrowing models from another discipline.

I've always noticed that in group dynamics and teambuilding if you don't have a leader you get a lot of aimless wandering. I think that is one reason James16 has been successful. I think you need someone with a vision and the ability to impart it in order to bring focus and direction. I think it also requires either someone who has been successful already or has a very strong vision to accomplish something that has not been done before. I look through history and there always seems to be a name that was responsible for provding this to any successful group. Chrisopher Columbus comes to mind. It wasn't a bunch of sailors out to take a look around.

FT
  • #12
  • Edited 2:24am Aug 3, 2005 2:07am | Edited 2:24am
fiji, i think youve said what i wanted to say but didnt.

after posing this question (which im glad you liked as it speaks to my blossoming scientific abilities ), i was thinking about great companies, great football teams etc etc. everything successful model i could come up with had one thing in common: a great leader. i was kind of thinking that its all about the leadership, but i didnt want to say it because that was like saying quinn wasnt a good leader. but since he has already admitted slackin on the project i think it safe to say that team trading could work if there were someone to lead the group.

someone would have to stand up as the leader and be truely motivated to make it happen. if i thought i could be the leader, i would stand up in a second and take on the challenge. but i fear i would be a very poor person to lead the group because my trading style is kind of hard to relate to if your not a programming nerd.

so who is going to be the one to stand up and lead us to the promised land????
Relax and be happy.
  • #13
  • Aug 3, 2005 2:22am Aug 3, 2005 2:22am
Quoting merlin
fiji, i think youve said what i wanted to say but didnt.

after posing this question (which im glad you liked as it speaks to my blossoming scientific abilities ), i was thinking about great companies, great football teams etc etc. everything successful model i could come up with had one thing in common: a great leader. i was kind of thinking that its all about the leadership, but i didnt want to say it because that was like saying quinn wasnt a good leader. but since he has already admitted slackin on the project i think it safe to say that team trading could work if there were someone to lead the group.

someone would have to stand up as the leader and be truely motivated to make it happen. if i thought i could be the leader, i would stand up in a second and take on the challenge. but i fear i would be a very poor person to lead the group because my trading style is kind of hard to relate to if your not a programming nerd.

so who is going to be the one to stand up and lead us to the promised land????
I think if we wait for someone to put up their hand it may never happen.

Who on this forum is:-

Good teacher
Successful Trader
Nice person
Willing to take on this task???????????????????????????????????????

Merlin...you must know everyone..whom would you nominate????
  • #14
  • Aug 3, 2005 2:25am Aug 3, 2005 2:25am
Quoting Antra
Who on this forum is:-

Good teacher
Successful Trader
Nice person
Willing to take on this task???????????????????????????????????????
jim!!!!!
Relax and be happy.
  • #15
  • Aug 3, 2005 2:26am Aug 3, 2005 2:26am
Quoting merlin
jim!!!!!
BINGO!!!
  • #16
  • Aug 3, 2005 2:27am Aug 3, 2005 2:27am
and fiji!! but he wouldnt do it... or would he??
Relax and be happy.
  • #17
  • Aug 3, 2005 2:29am Aug 3, 2005 2:29am
Quoting merlin
and fiji!! but he wouldnt do it... or would he??
I know....both of them!!!!
  • #18
  • Aug 3, 2005 2:32am Aug 3, 2005 2:32am
there are 6 or 7 other guys on this forum (ie quinn, blue, dialist) that could lead the group as well. they may be less experienced with trading, but i dont think the leader of the group would necessarily have to be that experienced. they just need to direct traffic and keep the train going. the collective experience of the group is the workhorse.
Relax and be happy.
  • #19
  • Aug 3, 2005 2:44am Aug 3, 2005 2:44am
Quoting merlin
there are 6 or 7 other guys on this forum (ie quinn, blue, dialist) that could lead the group as well. they may be less experienced with trading, but i dont think the leader of the group would necessarily have to be that experienced. they just need to direct traffic and keep the train going. the collective experience of the group is the workhorse.
If there are still a heap of ppl interested then each one of the above that you have mentioned could perhaps be the group leader and keep the momentum going within each group and then the groups themselves could be overseen by the head honcho/s.
I really feel that with group work we will be able to get the ideas flowing and the backtests /systems/set ups etc going BUT will then need the help of those more experienced to help us even further.

Just my opinion...as I was sad to see teamtrading not go ahead.
  • #20
  • Aug 3, 2005 5:32am Aug 3, 2005 5:32am
Well lets see. Jim already has a great forum so no point in fragmenting that unless you join the system development idea to his thread. However I think what he is doing seems to be working great so why try to wedge something in there. I have always like the easy road to success and that is to find signs of life in something and encourage it to grow on its own merits but also find ways to nourish it once you find out what to feed it.

I would lead something like that if I had a vision for it so it. However it would be pointless for me to try and accomplish something I don't see in my minds eye and, yes, also in my heart.

However one thing that strikes me is that the conversation that just happened was about leadership. That is only part of a great model. Nobody has to run out and find a leader at this point but only to recognise that it is just one of the components of a great model. I find that often we westerners are so quick to grab the ball and run as soon as we find one part of something that we fail to continue to develop the idea sufficiently to find the life within it that can drive something forward. We get all "A" type about it and we're off to the races without even a race track. We just want to race anything anywhere anytime. Same problem most traders have.

So what else is present with any great team success model? Here are a few... though not in order. These aspects are found in one form or another. Let's have some examples and disect them a bit.

Planning
Brainstorming
Practice
Strategizing
Motivation
Protocol
Communication
Code of ethics
Record keeping
Reviews of progress
Accountability

I could go on with this but I don't want to get too detailed at this point. The idea here would be to at least be able to define what a model of success contains and what separates from a model that is likely to fail. Obviously the intent would be to avoid components of a model that is likely to fail.

BTW thanks Merlin for picking up on this and taking it a step forward.

Here are some other things to address:

Why do people join into an activity or project? What are they looking for? What prevents them from continuing and what encourages them to continue. Clearly most people like to believe they have something to gain and something to contribute.

FT


PS.
Merlin I've emailed you twice about that other project and have yet to hear back. Please get back to me or if for some reason you've not received my emails send me the one you are responding to. Maybe I've been ground up in the spam shredder.
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