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MBTrading vs HotspotFX vs Dukascopy vs IB

  • #21
  • Jan 1, 2008 5:29pm Jan 1, 2008 5:29pm
Hi,

how much is the minimum to open an account with them? I'm already tired of my current broker...asian session for Jan 2 is open yet they will only open with the London session in 9 and a half hours...and I have open positions because they couldn't get an email out to us warning that they would close early on the 31st...
Nihil inimicus quam sibi ipse Marcus Tullius Cicero
  • #22
  • Jan 1, 2008 5:44pm Jan 1, 2008 5:44pm
Quoting natejax
how small positions can you take with hotspot? looks like a good broker if it has good capitalization. i am finding MBT spreads less than satisfactory.
100k
If I Go Broke Trying Then I Will die happy.
  • #23
  • Jan 1, 2008 8:33pm Jan 1, 2008 8:33pm
Can you get hit on the bid/offer with your limit orders with those brokers?
Private message me for a link to my order flow website.
  • #24
  • Edited Mar 15, 2008 11:33am Mar 14, 2008 2:06pm | Edited Mar 15, 2008 11:33am
Quoting natejax
how small positions can you take with hotspot? looks like a good broker if it has good capitalization. i am finding MBT spreads less than satisfactory.
Just wanted to update that just recently Hotspot allows increments 10,000k and 1,000 as smallest positions .1=100,000 .01=10,000 and .001=1000
  • #25
  • Mar 14, 2008 8:52pm Mar 14, 2008 8:52pm
Quoting seker2k
Just wanted to update that just recently Hotspot allows increments 10,000k and 1,000 as smallest positions .1=100,000 .01=10,000 and .01=1000
Hello, may I know where do you get this information? I have a look on their site but could'nt find that !
  • #26
  • Mar 15, 2008 11:32am Mar 15, 2008 11:32am
Quoting themchose
Hello, may I know where do you get this information? I have a look on their site but could'nt find that !
I use Hotspot and they sent an email to all users:

The release notes below describe upgrades to the Hotspot FXr ECN and interface, which are designed to enhance your trading experience on the platform. Additionally, the upgrade supports a change in our accounting policy from a trade-date basis to a value-date basis to conform with risk management best practices.

Please review the notes below and contact us if you need more information.

Best regards,
Hotspot FXr



http://us.f541.mail.yahoo.com/ya/dow...&head=b&Idx=12
We are pleased to release new functionality to Hotspot FXr. The highlights for this release are as follows:

  1. New Minimum Trade Size
    Clients now have the ability to trade in any amount greater than 1,000 units. Amounts shown on the platform are in terms of millions, therefore amounts less than one million units are expressed as decimals:

    Examples:
    10,000 units, the entry would be 0.01
    1,000 units, the entry would be 0.001

    Clients also have the option of a Preference setting feature which will allow them to enter the specific trade amount as a unit quantity instead of in decimal format (i.e. 100,000 instead of 0.1) Please refer to the User Guide section "Customizing the Trading Environment" for more information on this and other preference settings.
  2. Bid/Offer Balance Preference Setting
    Clients now have the option of a Preference setting feature which will automatically bid or offer the balance of incompletely filled aggressive trades.
  3. Rolling of Open Positions
    All open positions held overnight will now be rolled to spot/next (S/N). Clients holding cross currency positions overnight will now see the crosses rolled as one cross currency roll trade instead of through the corresponding USD based pairs (i.e. EUR/JPY will be rolled as EUR/JPY instead of two roll trades, EUR/USD and USD/JPY)
  4. Sweeps
    All positions under 1,000 units in value will be swept automatically at the close of each business day.
  5. Changes to Account Balance Window Unrealized P/L-Locked: The profit or loss from previous days closed positions which will become realized on the trades’ value date. (Realized P/L is available on the View Balances web report.)
    Unrealized P/L-Open: The profit or loss from the current day's trading activity marked to market.

Please review our User Guide for more information. The User Guide can be downloaded from the Help tab on the Hotspot FXr trading interface.


Thank you.


CFTC Registered Futures Commission Merchant
Member of the National Futures Association, NFA # 0351580


http://us.f541.mail.yahoo.com/ya/dow...&head=b&Idx=12 [email protected]
http://us.f541.mail.yahoo.com/ya/dow...&head=b&Idx=12
  • #27
  • Edited 7:40pm Mar 15, 2008 5:47pm | Edited 7:40pm
Helllo all,

Rather than start a new thread about these same brokers, thought I would actually put my questions here, and hope to get some feedback. I have finally reached a stage where I am able to trade more than 1 std lot, and staying within my leverage comfort zone. I trade short term, and usually am happy to take profits quicker. I have always traded with Oanda in the past, and have not had too many complaints. Yes, they price fade, will slip you 1 pip or so on exits etc. But below are my issues, and I would appreciate feedback.

Commissions are all per USD traded:

MBT $5/100K
Hotspot $4/100k (edit: have double checked my email, and it is indeed $3/100k USD)
IB $2.5/100K
Dukas $1.8/100k

Apart from IB, I have had demos running on the Hotspot and Dukas, and a live acct on MBT. The spreads on Hotspot are usually far better than Dukas, and it is about a tie b/w mbt and hotspot. One is better than the other and vice versa on other times, so on a whole, I would say that they are about the same.

The next thing is the commission, and it is quite obvious that Dukas kicks ass in that dept. But if we say that the spreads are worse on Dukas, then the difference in the commissions allows a difference of 2-4 pips on any pair, before the overall cost becomes the same as the others.

Next, account opening min. That is not an issue for me, but something interesting happened last week that I made me a bit cautious about Dukas. It is quite possible that my concerns are totally unwarrented, hence I ask from the more experienced ppl here. I registered for a demo with dukas, and after about 2 weeks, received a phone call from them, asking the usual stuff, how am I finding the platform, any problems, any questions etc. I have received 3 phone calls from them in the space of 2 weeks, promoting their company, and telling me how good it is to trade with them etc. They were even willing to lower the min opening amt from 50k to a slightly lower value!! Now, after reading about how bad their customer service is etc on the forums, all this really surprised me. The last time I received all this follow up was from ACM, and I shall not mention what I think of them anyway.

Lastly, an issue that is impt for me, but probably not for a lot of others is the ability to open an account in AUD (since I live in australia, and earn in aud). I would hate to trade positively for the year and then have my profits eroded away due to the fall in value of the usd (if I had usd accounts). I am not sure about IB, but MBT is the only one out of the others that do not offer non-usd accounts at this stage.

So, after all things taken into account, it brings me back to Oanda v's the ones I have mentioned above. The spreads + commissions taken into account, end up being the same as oanda, if not more expensive. About, oanda slipping you 1 pip or so on exits, they state that the price we get filled is the one on their server, and yes, there is a very slight lag b/w the prices on their servers and the charts. But they way I look at it is, if I was on one of the others, if I entered a market order for exit, then if the price changed right at that time as well, I would be filled at a difference price. Flexible lot sizing, trading on the charts, etc are all side-benefits as well.

All this analysis leaves me in a state of confusion. Everything I read says ECN are better overall, but once I do all the calculations etc, I just can't seem to go past Oanda.

Would really appreciate all the help I can get in clarifying my confusion, as I plan to take a week off work in a few weeks, to trade full time, and see how that goes.

Looking forward to everyone's contribution.

Regards,
K.
  • #28
  • Mar 15, 2008 6:17pm Mar 15, 2008 6:17pm
Quoting kermut
Half a pip!! wow. I have yet to see anything less than 2-3 pips on GJ on MBT. Is that a live acct with hotspotfxi, or just hotspot (which is their retail side)?

The other impt thing is that you could have a spread as low as 0.5 pip, but as soon as you enter your market order, you never get filled at the price you see. I have experienced this on MBT on every occasion. On Eur/Jpy, my order was always filled 1 pip out of the price I clicked. This was the main reason I went back to Oanda. Well enough having a 1 pip spread, but what is the use if you can never make the most of it!!

Regards,
K.
not trying to be an ass but you do realise that it's showing 0.1m on the bid. What's the point of a 1 pips spread if you can only deal in 100k? All this fixation on how wide the spread is means nothing if liquidity isnt there in size. What happens if you want to sell 1m .... where's the next bid, 5 ticks lower? If you're thinking about choosing an ecn as your choice of platform, you shouldnt really just be looking at what spreads they have when basing your decisions. Think about what size you'll be trading and then see what the sizeadjusted spread is cos in reality, thats what you'll be paying

not trying to be an ass
  • #29
  • Mar 15, 2008 6:21pm Mar 15, 2008 6:21pm
Quoting htbreaker
Normaly market orders. Haven't any problems yet.


Do you know how this new hotspot platform ties into the back end? I use the original hsfxi platform which is a fully matching order system which only uses limit orders (which is one of the major benefits of it over say currenex which has certain 'last look' features). The api has ioc orders whihc the gui doenst offer but even the api does not offer market orders.
  • #30
  • Mar 15, 2008 6:31pm Mar 15, 2008 6:31pm
Quoting kermut
Hotspot $4/100k
Hotspot's rate is $3/100k notional, not $4. So for GBP pairs, this puts them ahead of Duka at ~$1.5/100k USD.

Quote
The spreads on Hotspot are usually far better than Dukas, and it is about a tie b/w mbt and hotspot.
I concur 100%.

Quote
But if we say that the spreads are worse on Dukas, then the difference in the commissions allows a difference of 2-4 pips on any pair, before the overall cost becomes the same as the others.
Supposedly, Duka will fill you on HotSpot FXi, Lava, or Currenex, if any one of those platforms happens to have a better price than Duka. I haven't done enough live trades with them yet to verify this. If on the demo, you throw say 100mil at the market, you might see a fill report like this:
http://i27.tinypic.com/33bzg4p.png
SWFX = Duka. So the demo order was filled partially at Goldman, Citi, Lava, FXi, CNX, as well as Duka. Again, I can't confirm 100% that this is the case in the live environment. But according to their company overview pdf, and what they've claimed in several magazine interviews, this is what they do.

Quote
They were even willing to lower the min opening amt from 50k to a slightly lower value!!
That's funny. I had some smaller accounts I wanted to bring over and they wouldn't let me, so they're on their way to MBT instead. Duka's loss..
  • #31
  • Mar 15, 2008 7:30pm Mar 15, 2008 7:30pm
Quoting sccz97
not trying to be an ass but you do realise that it's showing 0.1m on the bid. What's the point of a 1 pips spread if you can only deal in 100k? All this fixation on how wide the spread is means nothing if liquidity isnt there in size. What happens if you want to sell 1m .... where's the next bid, 5 ticks lower? If you're thinking about choosing an ecn as your choice of platform, you shouldnt really just be looking at what spreads they have when basing your decisions. Think about what size you'll be trading and then see what the sizeadjusted spread is cos in reality, thats what you'll be paying

not trying to be an ass

Hello sccz97,

I was hoping you would come here to post some of your experience, I have read your posts in the The ECN thread, very informative.

Don't worry, I did not take your post as "being an ass", as I would have to admit I did not look at the bid price. It is not something I am used to, so guess I will have to get used to looking at these sort of things.

Regards,
K.
  • #32
  • Mar 15, 2008 7:39pm Mar 15, 2008 7:39pm
Hello Trader KGB,

Much appreciate your insights.


Quoting Trader KGB
Hotspot's rate is $3/100k notional, not $4. So for GBP pairs, this puts them ahead of Duka at ~$1.5/100k USD.

I stand corrected, it is $3/100k, but it is 100kUSD. Below is an extract of the email I received from the rep at Hotspot

Our initial margin requirement is 2%, the minimum trade size is USD 100,000 and our commissions are 3 USD per 100,000 USD transacted.

I have read that their US and UK offices work with different commission pricing models, but this is the contact that I received when I contacted them via their website.


Supposedly, Duka will fill you on HotSpot FXi, Lava, or Currenex, if any one of those platforms happens to have a better price than Duka. I haven't done enough live trades with them yet to verify this. If on the demo, you throw say 100mil at the market, you might see a fill report like this:
http://i27.tinypic.com/33bzg4p.png
SWFX = Duka. So the demo order was filled partially at Goldman, Citi, Lava, FXi, CNX, as well as Duka. Again, I can't confirm 100% that this is the case in the live environment. But according to their company overview pdf, and what they've claimed in several magazine interviews, this is what they do.

That's funny. I had some smaller accounts I wanted to bring over and they wouldn't let me, so they're on their way to MBT instead. Duka's loss..

That is exactly what they told me, that it is a market place etc etc. Just that the guy rang me 3 times in 2 weeks, almost as if they really need more customers etc. Take someone like ODL cnx, which is also a reputed broker, they would not be likely to contact you so many times, and try to convince you that they are the best broker out there, for a measly 50k. If you were going to open a 500k acct, and do something like 500M/mth, then I can understand the brokers falling over their feet to get your business.

The account minimum was not a huge reduction (not sure if would jeoperdise my ability to open an account with them in the future by mentioning the amt), but I still considered it significant, esp when I have read over and over again that they do not negotiate on opening acct balance.

Out of curiosity, any reason why your small accts did not go over to Hotspot, instead of MBT?

Regards,
K.
  • #33
  • Mar 15, 2008 9:11pm Mar 15, 2008 9:11pm
Quote
That is exactly what they told me, that it is a market place etc etc. Just that the guy rang me 3 times in 2 weeks, almost as if they really need more customers etc. Take someone like ODL cnx, which is also a reputed broker, they would not be likely to contact you so many times, and try to convince you that they are the best broker out there, for a measly 50k. If you were going to open a 500k acct, and do something like 500M/mth, then I can understand the brokers falling over their feet to get your business.
Probably b/c Duka's reps earn a commission, either on the # of clients they bring in, and/or a cut of the commissions their signed-up clients generate (similar to their ib program). fwiw, about 9 months ago I signed up for a currenex demo at MF Global UK (a rather reputable firm). It didn't suit me, & I told the contact rep thanks but I wasn't interested. He has been emailing me for 9 months wondering if I'm interested yet..

Quote
Out of curiosity, any reason why your small accts did not go over to Hotspot, instead of MBT?
For a few reasons. HS FXr doesn't support as many pairs as MBT that I trade (GBP/CHF, etc). I'm also not sure how FXr handles order dissemination for multiple accounts. MBT handles it well, and after too many hassles with IB in this dept, I'm not interested in experimenting.

Lastly, and I know this is splitting hairs, but I don't like FXr's 4:30pm Friday close. Why close before the interbank market does? Some pairs made 30-40 pip movements in that final half hour yesterday (G/J fell over 70 in the last 15 mins), it doesn't make sense for any broker to close early. Typically dealing desks are the worst offenders in this dept (2-4pm Fri closes), but HS FXr should strictly adhere to interbank trading hours.

The commissions difference isn't overly dramatic. We're talking fractions of a pip. If you can achieve even 0.3 pip improvement on average at one venue vs another, then the commissions comparison is thrown out the window. I'll still negotiate with MBT on a lower rate. I'm surprised they haven't come down already..
  • #34
  • Mar 16, 2008 1:18am Mar 16, 2008 1:18am
Quoting Trader KGB
Lastly, and I know this is splitting hairs, but I don't like FXr's 4:30pm Friday close. Why close before the interbank market does? Some pairs made 30-40 pip movements in that final half hour yesterday (G/J fell over 70 in the last 15 mins), it doesn't make sense for any broker to close early. Typically dealing desks are the worst offenders in this dept (2-4pm Fri closes), but HS FXr should strictly adhere to interbank trading hours.


The commissions difference isn't overly dramatic. We're talking fractions of a pip. If you can achieve even 0.3 pip improvement on average at one venue vs another, then the commissions comparison is thrown out the window. I'll still negotiate with MBT on a lower rate. I'm surprised they haven't come down already..
Actually, I wouldn't call that splitting hairs at all, it would be a major issue. The way the markets have been over the past few weeks, Friday afternoons are proving to be quite profitable. I wasn't aware of this.


The last time I spoke to a rep at MBT, their response was that their scaled commisions start at over 1M per day (ie 2M roundturn).

Very much appreciate your experiences and insights.

Regards,
K.
  • #35
  • Mar 16, 2008 7:48pm Mar 16, 2008 7:48pm
Another factor that ought to be up for consideration here is swaps. I have had a live account with MBT for over a year now, but I am looking elsewhere. Unfortunately, my account size is rather small (a few thousand), so I need to be on a broker that allows mini to micro lots in order to manage my risk appropriately. This combined with MBT's decent fills keep me with them, but the commission and swap spread kill me!

A screenshot for your edification is attached.

As you see, in every case, the interest spreads are skewed negatively by 2+%. Note that in some cases (EUR/CAD, others) you pay interest on a position in either direction. Thus MBT is less attractive for holding positions long-term versus many other brokers.

On the other hand, I haven't taken a look at the rates of the other ECNs discussed in this thread. Could those with live accounts at IB, Dukascopy, and HotSpot FXr post the interest spreads they receive?
Attached Image
  • #36
  • Mar 16, 2008 8:04pm Mar 16, 2008 8:04pm
Quoting drummer486
A screenshot for your edification is attached.
Those aren't the greatest, but they used to be a LOT worse. If you go back about 9 months on the EFX thread, you'll see I posted a similar screenshot. For some reason, back then NZD/JPY and a host of other carry pairs were negative swap on long positions. I'm glad to see that's no longer the case.

Duka's rates here (shown in terms of pips offset from basis), IB's rates here (they're some of the best). HotSpot doesn't publish their rates. Surprisingly, even if you call and ask, you're unlikely to get an answer..
  • #37
  • Edited 9:00pm Mar 16, 2008 8:10pm | Edited 9:00pm
Quoting phil90
At dukascopy

http://www.dukascopy.com/swiss/english/forex/overnight/
Those are the institutional rates. The regular rates are linked to in that page (or go to the link I posted above).
  • #38
  • Mar 17, 2008 6:45am Mar 17, 2008 6:45am
Spread is one thing , but very important is their commission. As I know till today Dukascopy charge 18 $ per one mio, but other brokers charge 50$ per mio and some even more.
  • #39
  • Mar 17, 2008 1:16pm Mar 17, 2008 1:16pm
Quoting drummer486
Another factor that ought to be up for consideration here is swaps. I have had a live account with MBT for over a year now, but I am looking elsewhere. Unfortunately, my account size is rather small (a few thousand), so I need to be on a broker that allows mini to micro lots in order to manage my risk appropriately. This combined with MBT's decent fills keep me with them, but the commission and swap spread kill me!

A screenshot for your edification is attached.

As you see, in every case, the interest spreads are skewed negatively by 2+%. Note that in some cases (EUR/CAD, others) you pay interest on a position in either direction. Thus MBT is less attractive for holding positions long-term versus many other brokers.

On the other hand, I haven't taken a look at the rates of the other ECNs discussed in this thread. Could those with live accounts at IB, Dukascopy, and HotSpot FXr post the interest spreads they receive?
Drummer,

Since you dont have a large account that certainly limits your options. I think your best option would be Oanda if you dont have a large account. Execution is very good but slippage with them can sometimes be a problem. However, I do think they are the cheapest for the smaller account guys. I had heard great things about MB but after demoing the platform, talking to a couple of their guys, looking at swaps and commissions I have decided not to open an account with them. They seem to have a decent following here at FF but they are not for me. I would say that if you dont like Oanda and you cant increase your size that maybe you should stick with MB. There aren't a lot of other firms other then MB that have better pricing and show market depth for smaller accounts. Although that should make you wonder if they are truly an ECN or not. It certainly makes me wonder.
  • #40
  • Mar 17, 2008 1:22pm Mar 17, 2008 1:22pm
Quoting fxtrader42
Drummer,

Since you dont have a large account that certainly limits your options. I think your best option would be Oanda if you dont have a large account. Execution is very good but slippage with them can sometimes be a problem. However, I do think they are the cheapest for the smaller account guys. I had heard great things about MB but after demoing the platform, talking to a couple of their guys, looking at swaps and commissions I have decided not to open an account with them. They seem to have a decent following here at FF but they are not for me. I would say that if you dont like Oanda and you cant increase your size that maybe you should stick with MB. There aren't a lot of other firms other then MB that have better pricing and show market depth for smaller accounts. Although that should make you wonder if they are truly an ECN or not. It certainly makes me wonder.
they are an ecn but like you say there comm and swap is a killer, i rather pay 3 pip spread on gbp/usd with better swap il come out cheaper.
If I Go Broke Trying Then I Will die happy.
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