Advice needed, bright future at stake

'Morning folks,

So beyond the obvious insanity of using information from anonymous people on an online forum to guide one's life on a critical level (like, say, on employment decisions), I am so full of love and trust for the weathered veterans here that I am going to seek your advice to guide me on a critical level. Namely, an employment decision. Yes I'm funny like that on sunday mornings

I am still early in my masters program and beginning to consider positions in banks (JPMorgan, Lemans, Sachs..etc) that have currency trading, quants..etc that recruit in my university. In other words, I'm considering being "one of those guys" and actually doing investment banking for a living, ideally on a route that involves my technical skills (I am a comp.sci guy specializing in aritificial intelligence and have worked with financial applications of pattern classification in speculation..etc). It feels terrible, because I am already trading for myself and have traded for friends, all from home, and have always considered it just a seperate part of my life. But recently I have had less and less ability to balance research/academia and trading, was forced to almost abandon trading, and I realize that whatever the job one does in the morning (being a professor, trader or car mechanic) one can do what they really want (science, in my case) in their free time.

Hence I am seeking advice from everyone here who has worked *successfully* in a prop firm or a bank: do you advise people to take that path? Do you recommend trading for a firm as opposed to trading at home part time? How fast do you start being trusted with larger amounts of capital if you are good? Do the hours always have to be as harsh as I hear, or can things be more lenient if you are making them the profits they want? Do you get lots of pretty women?

These are questions I probably shouldn't ask a recruiter, so all ye vets, please throw in a word of advice. Uninformed replies will expose their owner to the risk of being hunted down and shot. For example, if you make the assertion that you do indeed get lots of pretty women, whereas you, in reality, have never seen one and are just another old wanker, I will not be amused. Ditto for any 13 year old "1kt" out there.

This thread can also be seen as a heated discussion on institutional verses from-home trading.

Clueless but happy,
-A

From one who has been employed and self employed I choose self employed any day...... Remember, Bosses are like diapers, they are full of shit and always on your ass....... Now I control my schedule and have a life.
I am not a full time trader, but my business allows me to trade even while I am at the office.

Well, here is a tidbit from my personal experience. For the record, I hate to brag, but I have to give props where props are due, this man won Treasure Hunters on NBC, so he has some room to talk. My buddy Sam gave me this advice...while we were drinking at a bar...after three hours of drinks...

"After talking to and hanging out with all the old people I have, I have found the secret to life. Find the one thing you actually want to do in this world and find a way to make money at it. That is the only way you'll ever be happy."

I firmly believe it, hence why I'm pursuing a career in trading.

Plutonite,

I have been working in the industry (inst. broking and trading) since 1987; worked for small and large firms, ran my own trading research company for several years and traded for people.

I am now a remote proprietary trader for a UK firm and trade with their capital from home. More and more firms allow remote prop trading - after a period of proving at the office that one can produce results.

My personal choice is to work in isolation since I have sat in offices with up to 200 traders and it has neither helped nor hindered....

Banks, Investment houses or hedge funds want you present because if you manage a portfolio for example, your work and risk is much more complex than mine as a pure long/short intraday trader. I have access through ECN with preset loss-limits and trade size.

You are presumably still young and therefore, a period of working with top people at Goldmans or Morgan cannot harm. If you are a trader by nature, it will push through in one way or another - and the markets will always be there and evolving.

This line of work is (or can be) as boring as any other - make sure you choose a path where there will be plenty of firepower behind it. Capitalization makes all the difference. We know that there are tons of private people in the game with maybe 50K or 100K leverage in their accounts - but working with millions will get you there....and yes, the prop firms will increase your limits quickly if you're profitable beause its in their interest.

Good luck,

regards
daytrading

Some threads of interest..

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=35982
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showth...hreadid=114157

within the organization you are a king, if you work well you are head hunted by almost everyone.

so if you are planning to join a bank and you know you can do it well then go for it.

once you leave the organization nobody is interested in you, unless you have a track record to prove yourself

so if your goal is to make a space for yourself in the financial markets then go for the job, else if you interest is only for money then trade yourself as a self employed person.

Even if you trade for yourself for your own pure gain, and possibly managing a couple of accounts, you will get noticed without a doubt if you are successful. Bar none. The whole key is if you can really hack it, day in, day out.

If you can make it, you will get the offers, no doubt. After all, "In the end, the universe tends to unfold as it should."

Moral of the story: If you get the opportunity, and you know it's what you want, duh, go for it. That's the chance I'm looking for myself, so you know I'd be jealous. However, it doesn't matter what I, or any of us, think, if that's what you want man, and if it's there for you...DO IT! That's all there is to it!

You're a programmer.

To me, its not about being clueless and happy, but gaining those clues and staying happy. If you try it out and don't like it, you will always have your knowledge of the markets and you'll still be able to trade for your own. It's your call entirely on that, because your the one in charge of your future. You have knowledge that a lot of people would be willing to pay for (company), it just comes down to your happiness at that company. If your not happy with them, oh well, there will surely be a lot of others that would pay to have your uses on their side. Even while working for them, I don't see why you wouldn't still trade for your own accord too. It looks like a win-win situation for you. That's just another 13 year old 1kt's thoughts.

either way you slice it you have some great options in front of you. you could finish your masters, then join a big trading firm making $400K as a techie (and that would be on the low end, just look at the jobs being offered at places like efinancialcareers.com). alternately, you could join a NYC prop firm and trade their money. you will probably make less, but you will get an unmatched education on the markets.

either way you choose, if you want to make a real career out of trading, i believe you need to get to NYC for the first part of your career. you will learn 10x faster being in the belly of the beast. not to mention the contacts you will develop. i learned more in the few years i traded at a prop desk than i learned reading 50 or so books on trading (and they were the good ones too!).

you could always just forget the financial industry altogether and trade on your own nickel and parlay that into a hedge fund. this is a viable option, but i think the fast track is going to NYC.

Thanks for the input, guys.

Daytrading: very interesting stuff about being allowed to trade from home. I doubt Bear Stearns or Lehman bros will let me do that, but like you said I am "young" (though it doesnt feel like I'm in my twenties after all the market has done to my mind in the past few years!) and it can never hurt to get in there for a while.

Merlin: surely you kid? What are these techies of which you speak? I know only of quants, and they are usually Ph.D's (and I have no idea how to apply for these jobs since I never saw anyone recruiting for a quant at that level). And the word "analyst" is used to mean anything these days, from preparing coffee to managing hundreds of millions, so I'm never quite sure where the true quant jobs are. Perhaps quants are recruited by the illuminati? I didnt check out the jobs website very well so if the answers are there, kindly ignore me

PS: some very informative PM's have answered my questions, they do not wish to be known, but I owe them thanks here nonetheless.

Question? Statement? Random exclamation?

Programming is part of what computer science folks do yes, but it contintually decreases in importance as you go further into advanced/grad study. Many quant positions are filled by engineering, math, and CS grads because of their ability to handle the math.

BTW I was expecting to hear from a few particular traders who decided to hit it from home after years in the battlefield, but then I haven't seen some of them on the forum for a while . *cough* philmcgrew *cough*.

Do you like programming?

Hi Plutonite,
can't give you any perspective from working in a bank but it stikes me your custom user title answers your question.
.............and we've got to get back to the garden....
Banks are babylon not Eden.
go with richie choose FREEDOM.
I met him once what a star

All the best with your decision
SS

Yep, it's one of the many things in CS that I like to do. I also like metamathematics/logic, researching interesting problems in my field, vacations on foreign beaches , Pringles and a good movie on a saturday night, and strawberry ice cream

EDIT: Forgot to say that I also enjoy sex, and chocolate. Must. Not. Forget. Chocolate.

Uh-oh. See the problem there? Look vewy carefully.

quants, techies...you know, those guys with the computers and stuff!

i thought they hired out of the masters but i could be wrong. you didnt see any offered?

Not so far, but then I did not look very carefully at the full timers (I'm searching for a summer intern thing first). I'll run a review thread here once I'm done with the whole process to give others an insight of what it's like. Will contact you beforehand to find out what is kosher and what isn't (mentioning the company names..etc). Don't infractionize me, bro!

So being a programmer, and liking it, I can assume you haven't burned out. So why did you go through the trouble of getting an MBA?