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Why trading system don't work

  • #21
  • Jan 31, 2008 10:01am Jan 31, 2008 10:01am
Quoting hilmy83
It's ironic that this thread is in the 'Trading Systems' forum
I think it's a good place for it.

This thread contains several of the major cliches, all in one place.

1. 95% of all traders lose their money.

2. The "big boys" know exactly where price is going at all times.

And not to be overlooked is this one. It probably costs more new traders more money that anything:

3. You can money manage a non-winning method into a winner.
  • #22
  • Jan 31, 2008 11:47am Jan 31, 2008 11:47am
Quoting daytrading
...so what you are saying is that if I would pay for the course and your time off, you would become a great trader and subsequently very wealthy?

The trading world is littered with "trading systems" - but not with decent traders. Does that say anything to you?

Ask how many of JP's top traders went on the course! Probably none because most of the traders on the floor used to work somwhere else before.

Never mind Cryten - if you ever get to the point where you can support yourself solely by trading, you know what I am talking about. No offence.

regards
As he is off to work now, let me just point out that he completely did not mean to say what you put into his mouth here. It was more hinting at the same that you wanted to express here, hopefully.

Cryten himself has come up with at least two profitable systems in the past and has left one alone more or less, while others are making nice money with that. He again is making money with the second one - starting step by step, but he surely does not need to be talked down to.

From what I know he has all that it takes to make his way in this market and I am living of my trading for a long time now. Banks are by no means more sophisticated than us, they just have very strict money management rules and the money to sit out positions to make them profitable over time. See fti's thread Technical Analysis Fallacy.

Best Wishes!
Gnat
  • #23
  • Jan 31, 2008 11:54am Jan 31, 2008 11:54am
Quoting daytrading
...so what you are saying is that if I would pay for the course and your time off, you would become a great trader and subsequently very wealthy?

The trading world is littered with "trading systems" - but not with decent traders. Does that say anything to you?

Ask how many of JP's top traders went on the course! Probably none because most of the traders on the floor used to work somwhere else before.

Never mind Cryten - if you ever get to the point where you can support yourself solely by trading, you know what I am talking about. No offence.

regards
I don't know if english is your first language but i have no idea what the hell your going on about! Your another freak who thinks he knows everything so I won't waste my time on you.
  • #24
  • Jan 31, 2008 11:57am Jan 31, 2008 11:57am
Quoting cryten
I don't know if english is your first language but i have no idea what the hell your going on about! Your another freak who thinks he knows everything so I won't waste my time on you.
Saw it coming ...

lol
  • #25
  • Jan 31, 2008 12:04pm Jan 31, 2008 12:04pm
Quoting Gnat
Saw it coming ...

lol
yeah i'll probably get "infractions overload" for that LOL
  • #26
  • Jan 31, 2008 12:11pm Jan 31, 2008 12:11pm
Quoting cryten
yeah i'll probably get "infractions overload" for that LOL


See you where the bee's go! Tomorrow that is
  • #27
  • Jan 31, 2008 12:28pm Jan 31, 2008 12:28pm
Quoting cryten
I don't know if english is your first language but i have no idea what the hell your going on about! Your another freak who thinks he knows everything so I won't waste my time on you.
What difference does it make whether english is my first or my fourth language?

I certainly don't know everything - but after 20 years of making money in the markets I can have my opinions.

I might be a freak as you say - but I am a rich one...and when you stamp traders tickets in your fx settlement office, I might take a stroll on the beach.

happy trading

regards
Enter Signature
  • #28
  • Jan 31, 2008 12:35pm Jan 31, 2008 12:35pm
Quoting daytrading
What difference does it make whether english is my first or my fourth language?

I certainly don't know everything - but after 20 years of making money in the markets I can have my opinions.

I might be a freak as you say - but I am a rich one...and when you stamp traders tickets in your fx settlement office, I might take a stroll on the beach.

happy trading

regards
Yeah you can stroll on that beach until I own it
  • #29
  • Jan 31, 2008 12:40pm Jan 31, 2008 12:40pm
Quoting cryten
Yeah you can stroll on that beach until I own it
yep, keep stamping those tickets...in 5 maybe 600 years you might get there.
Enter Signature
  • #30
  • Jan 31, 2008 12:41pm Jan 31, 2008 12:41pm
Like I said before trading is like a business. These 'big boys' (banks, etc) are always out to get the biggest share of the profits. Similarly in the business world, if you are starting a software company you may have Apple or Microsoft stealing your market share. Most businesses and traders do fail, BUT if you are focused and utilize some basic plan, you are more likely to be successful. There's a way to profit, just take advantage of the movements or 'trends' in the market!

Article below explains why new businesses fail. The basic reasons apply to traders; lack of planning, disillusionment, etc.

http://www.madison.com/crbj/200710/i...hp?ntid=247671

just replace business with "traders"
  • #31
  • Jan 31, 2008 12:43pm Jan 31, 2008 12:43pm
Quoting daytrading
...so what you are saying is that if I would pay for the course and your time off, you would become a great trader and subsequently very wealthy?

The trading world is littered with "trading systems" - but not with decent traders. Does that say anything to you?

Ask how many of JP's top traders went on the course! Probably none because most of the traders on the floor used to work somwhere else before.

Never mind Cryten - if you ever get to the point where you can support yourself solely by trading, you know what I am talking about. No offence.

regards
and like gnat said no that was not what I was saying so don't put words into my mouth! how in the world
did you make that up? I make good money in jp morgan, i will leave when I'm ready thanks!

Anyway for any other person jumping to conclusions about what I meant is that banks do use technical analysis and i know that not just by the fact they have courses on it but I am privvy to alot of information! Jp morgan gets it's traders from alot of different sources, graduates from uni who know nothing about trading or fx (I have read the minutes) people from my desk who show ambition and of course from other banks.

And then theres Gnat who was a bank trader before leaving and trading for himself who also informed me!!

I don't want to spend $250 on a course through Jp Morgan, I do not want to be a trader for Jp Morgan and I can make my own damn systems.
  • #32
  • Jan 31, 2008 12:50pm Jan 31, 2008 12:50pm
Quoting Arctic4x
Trade your way to financial freedom - Van K. Tharp, page 253.
Not sure if i can say it is "backed up with any data" but he say he have proven it and he tell how he did it.

Arctic4x
I remember that, and remember that he gave no data. I suppose I should look further into it. Someone posted on here that his experiment was later proven to be flawed.

Statistically, if market movement were totally random, you would lose because of spreads.

However, the market isn't random, and it is easier to lose money than to win, so I would like to see someone prove the coin flip method. Many say it, none prove it. Bullrock tried it, his thread died out quickly, and he even got to choose when to do the flip, which could greatly affect the outcome.

I say it's balderdash, can't work as given. However, a good trader can make money from almost any system. A good trader could actually do it, probably, with excellent trade management. After all, he could get out of a trade right away if he or she didn't like it, and let the good ones run. A great trader could do this, but that's not "flipping a coin". That would still be THAT trader using THAT trader's system.
  • #33
  • Jan 31, 2008 12:55pm Jan 31, 2008 12:55pm
Cryten,

let me clear a few things up for you here:

I have not put words in your mouth - I simply wrote a reply to your post.

Conversational threads work like this and at no time have I been personal - unlike you.

What is good money is always in the eye of the beholder - and as long as you are happy, there is no need for competing.

And last but not least, I wish you all the possible success with the systems you've devised and that you aims come true.

Mine have.

Regards
Daytrading
Enter Signature
  • #34
  • Jan 31, 2008 12:58pm Jan 31, 2008 12:58pm
Quoting cryten
your full of it. I work for jp morgan and out of curisoity did a search for "trading" and "trading systems" on our training central website low and behold theres a course there called Trend trading with technical indicators LOL
Your post came right after mine, where I mentioned trend trading. If you're addressing me, I don't get your point, and you obviously missed mine. So I'm not sure who you are saying is "full of it".
  • #35
  • Jan 31, 2008 12:59pm Jan 31, 2008 12:59pm
OK. Let's close it at this. I need to go to tennis now ...

Eidt: Blue, rest assured that he did not mean you, LOL!
  • #36
  • Jan 31, 2008 1:12pm Jan 31, 2008 1:12pm
Quoting blueruby
Your post came right after mine, where I mentioned trend trading. If you're addressing me, I don't get your point, and you obviously missed mine. So I'm not sure who you are saying is "full of it".
I was talking to the thread starter!
  • #37
  • Edited 5:28pm Jan 31, 2008 4:27pm | Edited 5:28pm
Quoting billbss
I think it's a good place for it.

This thread contains several of the major cliches, all in one place.

1. 95% of all traders lose their money.

2. The "big boys" know exactly where price is going at all times.

And not to be overlooked is this one. It probably costs more new traders more money that anything:

3. You can money manage a non-winning method into a winner.

you don't think the big boys know where price is going?
really?

I always laugh because you will hear warnings for at least on week before a major trend changing
.. and at the same time vol dries up & price pushes up.
so when the trend break comes ... it happens fast & the lossers lose big & the winners win big.
watch & see ... you will see the pattern again & again.

the last one was the fall of the aud/usd - people in the know where saying it's going to drop
... as the vol dried up & price pushed higher ...then bang it drops 100s of pips..... .amazing

the issue is information its that simple .... they have a lot more of it then we do ...its power
... it really not rocket science.

the MM make money by taking our money ... what do you think a channel is?


teb
  • #38
  • Jan 31, 2008 5:06pm Jan 31, 2008 5:06pm
Quoting cryten
I was talking to the thread starter!
"They tell you all they use no indicators....." - start of thread

Cryten mentioned (to the thread starter) that he was aware of indicators being used in some JP Morgan training manuals - then Daytrading starts giving him a hard time?

It seems like somebody missed something along the way - but it wasn't Cryten.
  • #39
  • Jan 31, 2008 5:11pm Jan 31, 2008 5:11pm
Quoting brentmack
"They tell you all they use no indicators....." - start of thread

Cryten mentioned (to the thread starter) that he was aware of indicators being used in some JP Morgan training manuals - then Daytrading starts giving him a hard time?

It seems like somebody missed something along the way - but it wasn't Cryten.
Well, right, but we do not want this to become another case for Twee. So we better close it and go to bed, LOL!

Best Wishes!
Matt
  • #40
  • Jan 31, 2008 5:39pm Jan 31, 2008 5:39pm
Quoting brentmack
"They tell you all they use no indicators....." - start of thread

Cryten mentioned (to the thread starter) that he was aware of indicators being used in some JP Morgan training manuals - then Daytrading starts giving him a hard time?

It seems like somebody missed something along the way - but it wasn't Cryten.
Thanks man
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