Your Ethics

Duke,

I said nothing about there is "no right or wrong". On the contrary, the law is in fact about legal and illegal which means right (innocent) or wrong (guilty). I said if it's legal today, we will exploit the loophole until it becomes illegal.

But if you think the rich get rich without stretching the envelope, then you're either naive or blind to reality. The examples I mentioned in my earlier post support the point. Every example from Bush's decision to attack Iraq to EveryDay Man avoiding taxes. But at no time did I suggest there is no "right or wrong". In America, we tend to ignore the right or wrong aspect once it becomes economically detrimental.

Slaveholders, being the good capitalists they were, exploited human capital and it was clearly "unethical" but it was "legal". When it became illegal, the slave trade stopped...eventually. Today Americans pay so-called "illegal aliens" under the table, in cash, in kind, but it subverts the US economy in the long run.

Today's taxpayers avoid paying taxes as much as possible, exploiting every loophole available!! Bill Gates at Microsoft essentially runs a monopoly (ethical?). When the feds called him on it, despite his enormous wealth Gates capitulated.

All I'm saying is an individual is genetically programmed to do whatever is necessary to survive and then thrive. Duke, if you were born Irish and oppressed decades ago, you would do anything to get to America.. If you were destitute in Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, you would do whatever you could to get to the good ole US of A. If you were in Viet Nam when the good ole US of A retreated at the end of the war, you would sail a rickety makeshift plyboard "boat" across the freaking shark-laden, storm-ridden PACIFIC OCEAN to get to the US of A. It's not even situational ethics....it's called survival. You will survive to thrive.

The law provides the bright line distinction of right and wrong; we pay lawyers to muddy that distinction. But ethics?? Please.... you [and everyone reading this post, including the author] will do whatever is necessary to survive and then thrive. As long as it's legal.

Enuf sayd.

Hmm... my opinion... it is a senseless debate?

The words "Fair", "Ethics", "Morals", "Right" and "Wrong" is not debatable.

Fairness:

If a blind comes to you and tell you it's not fair that you can see and he can't. Do you dig out your eyes and "level" the playing field?

What about animals? Should we level the playing field, try killing a cow with your bare hands. Thats how predators in the natural environment do isn't it?

Ethics and Morals:

I serve the Army, there might be a day when I will be called upon to kill the intruders. Am I a mass murderer or a hero?

Legal and Illegal, Right and Wrong:

Since taking up arms and killing intruders as a soldier is legal, that means I am doing the right thing taking lives. Making a lot of people broken hearted, fill their hearts with hate and keep the destruction alive. Thats Right?

Right or wrong, to who? I am right, the soldier trying to kill me is right, we are both right. And yet we are both wrong to attempt to kill each other.

Independence: What they did was illegal. Meaning it was wrong, but was it?

Dropping two atomic bombs on Japan, legal or illegal, right or wrong?

I am sure by now you can generate millions of analogies...

In summary, the law doesn't represent what is right or wrong. I am sure you can find various resources to why that is. It is a merely a guideline to how people should live in a community.

Survival... and decisions. Some rather starve to death than to kill their children. And yet, some kill their children rather than to starve themselves.

The pursuit of "Right" and "Wrong", "Fairness", imposing "Ethics and Morals" on others is what destroys us. I only believe in one truth, that is for every decision and action, there will be ripples. Results and consequences, we are so interwined to each other than our mere existence affects someone else.

If you look at life at the most basic level, you will see the truth. Respect those who has your prespective and those who have a different presepective. We are unique, meaning we are different, and yet we are biologically the same.

In my opinion it depends....

consider situation that first guy looks in his crystal ball and drawes trendlines in next 4 hours, the second bores a hole in the wall of a trading room of a big bank and puts a ccd camera there.

in conclusion - it depends on the whole process.

order board - Thomson's insiders info is some kind of a ccd but no one considers it illegal.... maybe it is...

I still say that just because it is not illegal, that doesn't mean it's OK to do it. You can wrong people in a hundred ways and it may not be illegal, but does that make it right? I'm not judging anyone, but I find it hard to belive that there are still so many people our there that will sell their soul for a dollar. Look at what happened at WorldCom and Enron. If you operate in an unethical manner, it will catch up to you eventually.

It's really all in how you look at it. Assume you and a "close" friend own a piece of property together and the two of you agree to sell it for a minimum of 100,000.00, but you are going to ask 125,000.00 for it. A buyer comes along and you negotiate a sale for $110,000.00. Do you give your business partner and friend $50,000.00 or $55,000.00? It wouldn't be illegal if you gave him $50,000.00 and told him you only got 100,000.00, because he agreed to take that for his 1/2 interest in the property. Is it OK for you to "legally" cheat and rob your friend and partner?

Maybe it's not illegal, and maybe your friend never finds out what a thief and cheat you are, but how could you do it and sleep peacefully at night if you have any heart at all? Just because something is not illegal, doesn't mean it's right or ethical. I know that this type of thinking in today's world is a pipe dream. It's a shame that there are so many out there that would rob their mother for a dollar, but that's how it is today. I personally would rather be poor, but that's just me. I too believe that every dog will have his day, and I am just as wrong as they are if I try and judge them.

Going back to the orginal question in this thread, even if the guy didn't do anything illegal, look where he is today because someone did something that was wrong? He can't even get a job in the business he knows and probably loves. He said it himself... "who would hire me?" Every act has a consequence and when an act is questionable, even if it is not illegal, it will eventually harm someone in some way. Think about that before you step over that edge.

In my opinion {apologies for the digression} there are only Ten Laws and a penultimate judge to decree compliance or failure.
Just sayin'...

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well i dont want to (publicly) say if this is right or wrong, but one this is for sure, this is how it works at dealing desks around the world. and not just in forex.

(and i think thats the point you are trying to make)

hey guys, btw, this is a great trading topic that the Boss has started, it would be a shame to see this thread turn into a political or general-ethics debate.

You are correct Merlin, this is how it works, has worked and always will work.

There is a big grey area in Forex- and the rest of the world. Maybe it comes down to this- If I paid an attorney 700 per hour instead of 400 per hour maybe I would still be dealing you 32-35 5X5 ~

FX B

Happy New Year Folks May you all have health and Prosperity

so this isnt really about 'your ethics' but instead is about the ethics of the industry, or perhaps your ethics vis a vis the ethics of those you are dealing with (from the central banks on down) and how any difference might affect your trading/profitability... personally, i think 1. that every trader must seek an edge and 2. information is information is information. but in that same vein, all information ought to be freely and easily accessed in an indifferent manner (a technological fantasy i know, but maybe the essence of a 'free' market)...

as far as trading with an 'illicit' edge, how do we price in the chances of litigation, or of our crony turning and using us as his edge? how are we certain that our illicitly obtained edge hasn't been spread without our knowledge to others? we can't be because we wouldn't want anyone to know that we have it in the first place, right? it's back down to 'well it works so i use it!'

I thought a little grease always makes the wheels spin better

In the old days when you gave a limit order to the futures floor and it traded there 100's, never thru and were always told--nothing done-- you wonder how do they get away with this, is that where your question is going?

Ok!

So business has never been ethical. The point seems to be that people do whatever they can get away with. From my point of view, this is wrong, although not illegal. The question is, can anything actually be done to improve the business we are in?

My answer, and I would be interested in how the rest of the community answers that question, is that people being people, we may try to improve it but every time we make a rule (or law, or regulation) someone will find a way around it.

Technically, the president had no constitutional authority to declare war. Only Congress is authorized to declare war, raise and support armies, provide and maintain a navy, and make the rules for these armed forces. There is nothing vague or unclear about the language in Article I, ¤ 8, clauses 11-16.

But for that matter, the government was never supposed to be able to collect unapportioned taxes (like our income tax), only the congress was supposed to have authority to mint and coin money (not a "Federal Reserve" of privately owned banks!), and that only in gold and silver (not the fiat paper we're pretending is real money now) ... the sixteenth amendment was never legally ratified...etc., etc..

In other words- that we live under the color of law is just a kind of illusion.

The government itself is in hypocrisy when they dictate what and is and isn't legal, nevermind ethical.

But I digress the thread...