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Your Ethics

  • #1
  • First Post: Dec 24, 2006 9:32am Dec 24, 2006 9:32am
We all know many short term intra day movements in many currency pairs are the result of large orders moving through markets from Hedge funds, Investment banks etc...

Keeping this in mind, would you be willing to sacrifice a few pips on your entry/exit to your market maker or financial institution for the insight as to when these orders will move through the market. Give up a pip or two for the opportunity to ride the coat-tails of a $500M order while markets are thin

Think carefully before you answer , then go to this link

http://www.cftc.gov/opa/enf03/opa4867-03.htm
  • #2
  • Dec 24, 2006 12:41pm Dec 24, 2006 12:41pm
Where do I sign up!? :
  • #3
  • Dec 24, 2006 12:54pm Dec 24, 2006 12:54pm
Is this information being offered and is it ethical (legal) Not into doing anything under handed. Keep everything on the up and up
  • #4
  • Dec 24, 2006 1:13pm Dec 24, 2006 1:13pm
Ouch, you hate reading about news like that. I can imagine a whole lot of lives were effected by the greed and scam mentioned. Reminds us of how important doing our own D.D. is when getting involved with any financial transaction.

Thom
  • #5
  • Dec 24, 2006 6:19pm Dec 24, 2006 6:19pm
Is the information legal- Yes- The FX market is not regulated per se. If I gave you beforehand information on stocks- Yes, that would be illegal. it's what and how we dispose of the knowledge that is a gray area

To respond to "Accrete"s post- Yes , a lot of lives and carees were ruined. I fit into that category. I know of many former colleagues who are now on a Government sponsered vacation

I would love to get back into the market but who would hire me
  • #6
  • Dec 24, 2006 6:37pm Dec 24, 2006 6:37pm
Quoting FormerFXBOSS
Is the information legal- Yes- The FX market is not regulated per se. If I gave you beforehand information on stocks- Yes, that would be illegal. it's what and how we dispose of the knowledge that is a gray area

To respond to "Accrete"s post- Yes , a lot of lives and carees were ruined. I fit into that category. I know of many former colleagues who are now on a Government sponsered vacation

I would love to get back into the market but who would hire me

i Think I am missing the point of this thread


What is it exactly that you are offering

Information on a scam that happend a while back

A service?

And what do you mean who would hire you?
Nothing is hard, some things just take more time and discipline.
  • #7
  • Dec 24, 2006 8:06pm Dec 24, 2006 8:06pm
Quoting NipthePips
And what do you mean who would hire you?
i think his his name is self explanatory
  • #8
  • Dec 24, 2006 9:10pm Dec 24, 2006 9:10pm
Quoting syd360
i think his his name is self explanatory
I thought so too, but I guess not. You see, he was one of these people who were fired because of this "scam". I'm assuming the purpose of this thread is to see if others think that he wasn't doing anything wrong by participating. Maybe?
  • #9
  • Dec 24, 2006 9:52pm Dec 24, 2006 9:52pm
Yes! Sure, why not? This is no different than having access to government news release. Realtimeforex give out news about who's moving what and where ... I read that somewhere long time ago when realtimefx was posting forecast here at FF.
  • #10
  • Dec 28, 2006 8:26pm Dec 28, 2006 8:26pm
Quoting FormerFXBOSS
We all know many short term intra day movements in many currency pairs are the result of large orders moving through markets from Hedge funds, Investment banks etc...

Keeping this in mind, would you be willing to sacrifice a few pips on your entry/exit to your market maker or financial institution for the insight as to when these orders will move through the market. Give up a pip or two for the opportunity to ride the coat-tails of a $500M order while markets are thin

Think carefully before you answer , then go to this link

http://www.cftc.gov/opa/enf03/opa4867-03.htm
Based on the responses, I MUST be missing the point. The link references a scam where funds were solicited ostensibly for the purpose of forex trading but in fact funds were diverted to other purposes to some degree or another.

FXBoss posed the question as to whether a trader would pay for information signaling when an institution was making a move intraday and then riding the coattails of the move for tidy profit.

My take is that FXBoss knows or has access to a knowledgeable source for such a signal. But because of his former employment association, he was caught up in someone else's scam; he now can't get a job as one of the defendants was his employer. So he's offering his "access" in return for a position. And since there's no such thing as insider information in Forex, what he's offering is legal....he's just tainted by our wonderful legal system.

Maybe I'm wrong but the last time I thought so, I was mistaken. Feel free to PM me FXBoss, if I'm on the right track.
  • #11
  • Dec 28, 2006 8:31pm Dec 28, 2006 8:31pm
Quoting FormerFXBOSS
Think carefully before you answer , then go to this link

http://www.cftc.gov/opa/enf03/opa4867-03.htm
great post
Relax and be happy.
  • #12
  • Dec 28, 2006 9:50pm Dec 28, 2006 9:50pm
This may not be illegal today, but it's definitely on the fringe in regards to being ethical. My guess is that it will be illegal soon enough. The beauracrats haven't had enough time with forex to get around to creating a watch dog agency just yet, but my guess is that it's just around the corner. This may be more difficult since FX is a worldwide entity and not just US based, but they will find a way.

Look at it like this. Assume you are a business person and you own a business buying widgets wholesale, and selling them to make a profit. Assume that the bigger your buying power, the bigger discount you can get on your widgets, thus the higher profit margin you can also obtain. However, the salesman that is servicing you, tells his other clients that he can squeeze their orders in with yours, and get them additional discounts, allowing them to effectively get the same price as you, without having nearly the same buying power.

Is this illegal? Probably not, but would you be happy that your competitors were getting the same price as you based on your buying power and not their own individual buying power? Just because it is not necessarily illegal, does not mean that it is not unethical on the part of the salesman. Both the salesman and the buyers are benefiting at your expense. The salesman is probably getting additional sales commisions that he would not get if he weren't able to offer the discount, and your competitors are able to buy at a price that they could not normally get without your help. In effect, they are probably taking away some of your business that you could draw in with lower prices were they not getting the same discount as you.

Everyone is a winner and probably happy but you, but ultimately, you are being wronged at it is definitely costing you money. Any way you slice it, it's just plain wrong!
  • #13
  • Dec 28, 2006 10:26pm Dec 28, 2006 10:26pm
I understand what you're saying but disagree with the reality of business as you present it. Most entrepreneurs do whatever's necessary to survive and thrive. Many remain within the bounds of law, others will stretch the legal envelope, and still others have no remorse, no conscience. Ignoring the last group as essentially a "criminal element" and dispensing with the first group as law-abiding citizens, we're left with those envelope-stretchers.

If something's legal today, I think most in that group will do it....regardless of someone else's value judgment as to whether it was ethical. Expenses must be met. Period. Whatever edge that entrepreneur can derive and exploit will be capitalized upon in order to generate profit, as that is the nature of capitalism, the nature of free market economics. Should the act in question become illegal in the future, then that ends the matter.

Many American businessmen were downright "unethical". Consider for example, the robber barons and slave owners of the 19th century. Each group minimized the cost of labor thereby increasing profit. It was legal, but certainly unethical, immoral and in stark contradiction to the constitution and the Christian principles upon which the nation was built. Consider by way of further example, American families and employers who exploited Mexican workers under the guise of giving them a better life (ethical?) but all the while building our economiy on the use of illegal employees, not to mention the many tax evaders who failed to pay employment taxes.

Is it also unethical for athletes to ingest legal performance-enhancing substances in order to compete because "everybody's doing it"? Point is, it's legal. And just like the envelope-stretching entrepreneurs discussed above, they will take advantage of every possible edge in order to succeed.

Is it ethical for a president and his advisors to fabricate reasons for initiating war? OR did the end justify the means? That is, should Mr. Bush do whatever's necessary to secure energy sources for our future? What the president did was legal, and he, just like the envelope-stretching entrepreneur, just like the athelete on performance-enhancing drugs, just like those who avoid (not evade) paying taxes, will take advantage of every possible loophole, every possible edge in order to succeed.

So at every level of society, law abiding citizens will do whatever is necessary to survive and thrive, particularly if it's legal. Remember...there's truth...there's justice. Then there's the American Way.
  • #14
  • Dec 29, 2006 2:55am Dec 29, 2006 2:55am
Quoting MoneyMa$ter
I understand what you're saying but disagree with the reality of business as you present it. Most entrepreneurs do whatever's necessary to survive and thrive. Many remain within the bounds of law, others will stretch the legal envelope, and still others have no remorse, no conscience. Ignoring the last group as essentially a "criminal element" and dispensing with the first group as law-abiding citizens, we're left with those envelope-stretchers.

If something's legal today, I think most in that group will do it....regardless of someone else's value judgment as to whether it was ethical. Expenses must be met. Period. Whatever edge that entrepreneur can derive and exploit will be capitalized upon in order to generate profit, as that is the nature of capitalism, the nature of free market economics. Should the act in question become illegal in the future, then that ends the matter.

Many American businessmen were downright "unethical". Consider for example, the robber barons and slave owners of the 19th century. Each group minimized the cost of labor thereby increasing profit. It was legal, but certainly unethical, immoral and in stark contradiction to the constitution and the Christian principles upon which the nation was built. Consider by way of further example, American families and employers who exploited Mexican workers under the guise of giving them a better life (ethical?) but all the while building our economiy on the use of illegal employees, not to mention the many tax evaders who failed to pay employment taxes.

Is it also unethical for athletes to ingest legal performance-enhancing substances in order to compete because "everybody's doing it"? Point is, it's legal. And just like the envelope-stretching entrepreneurs discussed above, they will take advantage of every possible edge in order to succeed.

Is it ethical for a president and his advisors to fabricate reasons for initiating war? OR did the end justify the means? That is, should Mr. Bush do whatever's necessary to secure energy sources for our future? What the president did was legal, and he, just like the envelope-stretching entrepreneur, just like the athelete on performance-enhancing drugs, just like those who avoid (not evade) paying taxes, will take advantage of every possible loophole, every possible edge in order to succeed.

So at every level of society, law abiding citizens will do whatever is necessary to survive and thrive, particularly if it's legal. Remember...there's truth...there's justice. Then there's the American Way.
You can justify your greed all you want MoneyMa$ter, but last time I checked those Mexicans were happy and actually getting paid more than they would in their own country.
Insider information is insider information, even if its not illegal yet, you can bet it will bring trouble.
If you were a consistently profitable trader, you would not even bother with this, so good luck!
  • #15
  • Dec 29, 2006 3:07am Dec 29, 2006 3:07am
Quoting MoneyMa$ter
If something's legal today, I think most in that group will do it....regardless of someone else's value judgment as to whether it was ethical. Expenses must be met. Period. Whatever edge that entrepreneur can derive and exploit will be capitalized upon in order to generate profit, as that is the nature of capitalism, the nature of free market economics. Should the act in question become illegal in the future, then that ends the matter.

.
This is the absolute truth of modern business. When I first joined the corporate world, I fought and struggled against it. I did not want it to be true but the bottom line is that it is. We all have our learned and or intuitive sense of right and wrong. However, it is the absolute observed truth that these beliefs or feelings have nothing to do with the real business environment and are for the most part a significant handicap in the financial world. In business there is no right and wrong, only what what is legal or illegal.
Profit is where readiness meets Opportunity
  • #16
  • Dec 29, 2006 3:30am Dec 29, 2006 3:30am
It's great to see that MoneyMa$ter believes that moral relativism is the way to go. I can be moral and also profitable, but I can also be a thief. In the long-term I will be better off by not being a thief, while being profitable at a slower rate. What good are profits when they've been siezed and I'm in Federal prison?

I think that's the whole point of this thread, so take it for what it's worth. I hope all the scammy brokers I've ever done business with go bankrupt, and I realize, also, that the CFTC can't protect you on a 15 minute chart. Go to the dailies, because the rates are published in the WSJ, then trade that way. You can't get scammed. 4 hours is as low as I go anymore.

BTW, MoneyMa$ter, (did I get the name right?$), have you ever heard of Karma? It really does happen...
"The time to act is when others show signs of tire." --W.D. Gann
  • #17
  • Dec 29, 2006 3:37am Dec 29, 2006 3:37am
Also, if you truly believe that there is no right or wrong, only legal and illegal, make your money, be rich or what-not, and live your life. Enjoy your life, because you will pay it all back sooner or later, alive or dead. I'm not some hellfire and brimstone type, either, I just believe that one can be profitable in this environment without screwing other people unfairly. Every time I get a pip I take it from someone else, but I don't necessarily have to decieve them to do it. My methods have to be more sound, that's all...
"The time to act is when others show signs of tire." --W.D. Gann
  • #18
  • Dec 29, 2006 5:03am Dec 29, 2006 5:03am
It is iteresting topic. Thanx
Prof Herman
  • #19
  • Dec 29, 2006 7:21am Dec 29, 2006 7:21am
This truly is a great topic. It is one of those topics that can be applied to most everything in life. We face these decisons on a daily basis in defining who we are.
Profit is where readiness meets Opportunity
  • #20
  • Dec 29, 2006 2:59pm Dec 29, 2006 2:59pm
Money Master Says it very well

Put yourself in this situation
You are the "house" and your client calls you and suggests the EURO is going to move up in the next 15 minutes. The House buys EURO in the open market ( for himself and client, who has an account with the house), picks up a nice profit,and then, passes some of his profit back to the client in the form of a few pips. The house has now sacrificied a few dollars of their profit- by given it directly back to the client.
Right or wrong? Opinions


The link, BTW, refrences one of several scams

Quoting MoneyMa$ter
Based on the responses, I MUST be missing the point. The link references a scam where funds were solicited ostensibly for the purpose of forex trading but in fact funds were diverted to other purposes to some degree or another.

FXBoss posed the question as to whether a trader would pay for information signaling when an institution was making a move intraday and then riding the coattails of the move for tidy profit.

My take is that FXBoss knows or has access to a knowledgeable source for such a signal. But because of his former employment association, he was caught up in someone else's scam; he now can't get a job as one of the defendants was his employer. So he's offering his "access" in return for a position. And since there's no such thing as insider information in Forex, what he's offering is legal....he's just tainted by our wonderful legal system.

Maybe I'm wrong but the last time I thought so, I was mistaken. Feel free to PM me FXBoss, if I'm on the right track.
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