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darwin discussion

  • #1,001
  • Jul 29, 2025 4:18pm Jul 29, 2025 4:18pm
Quoting sampat
{quote} Yes thats what I said in my couple of earlier post. You dont need external investors if you scale horizontally.
I have my doubts about whether this would work/be tolerated in practice. That would mean that Darwinex would have to pay me $450,000 per quarter, even though it would strictly speaking be trading virtual capital. That would mean a $450,000 loss for Darwinex. Okay, so I'd say €38.00 less per month for the fee. That would still be a big loss for them, and good for me ;-)
  • #1,002
  • Jul 29, 2025 5:15pm Jul 29, 2025 5:15pm
Quoting Noisy
{quote} I have my doubts about whether this would work/be tolerated in practice. That would mean that Darwinex would have to pay me $450,000 per quarter, even though it would strictly speaking be trading virtual capital. That would mean a $450,000 loss for Darwinex. Okay, so I'd say €38.00 less per month for the fee. That would still be a big loss for them, and good for me ;-)
Why don"t you start with one account and see how that goes first?
  • #1,003
  • Jul 30, 2025 2:20am Jul 30, 2025 2:20am
Quoting OutThere
{quote} Why don"t you start with one account and see how that goes first?
Yes, of course. I was just wondering if that would really be possible.
  • #1,004
  • Jul 30, 2025 2:43am Jul 30, 2025 2:43am
Quoting Noisy
{quote} Yes, of course. I was just wondering if that would really be possible.
The founder is an FRM with the highest possible education in the field of mathematics. I'm sure he has checked out the math to see if what he is doing is possible or not already.
But he admits that he is not a good trader. That's why he needs you.
  • #1,005
  • Jul 30, 2025 8:49am Jul 30, 2025 8:49am
Quoting PayTheBid
{quote} Hi Codemaster! I was not going to answer you like no one else did, cause I do not want to get involved in long back and forth but I will do it quick cause I do not know where you got these numbers but to me they do not make sense(it could be just me). Or maybe there is an error somewhere in those numbers. You posted "If you look at his track record, you can see that over the 8 years he averages around about 1.1% a month with a Max drawdown of 17%. Very respectable track record", with all due respect 1.1% is a joke for a good trader, with...
When I return from vaca, I will post in detail on everything discussed today. IMO, Darwinex is best funding opportunity for anyone looking long term., been with them 13 months, getting $600-800 2/3 months. I will be experiencing Gold shortly, which wil be the true test of how good the opportunity is. I only average about 2% monthly.
  • #1,006
  • Jul 30, 2025 11:59am Jul 30, 2025 11:59am
Quoting Noisy
...Withdrawable amount: $10,000,000 (capital) x 0.10% (return) x 0.15 (performance fees) = $150,000...
my calculator says its only 1.500$

kind regards
Muni loves you all!
  • #1,007
  • Jul 30, 2025 12:12pm Jul 30, 2025 12:12pm
Quoting MuniFX
{quote} my calculator says its only 1.500$ kind regards
Get a new calculator.

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: IMG_0248.png Size: 54 KB


Anyhow. I doubt it’s possible to have 100k permanent allocation on 100 different DARWINS.
  • #1,008
  • Jul 30, 2025 4:11pm Jul 30, 2025 4:11pm
Quoting Noisy
{quote} Get a new calculator. {image} Anyhow. I doubt it’s possible to have 100k permanent allocation on 100 different DARWINS.
You are missing one point. You can't make millions via 100 darwins unless you are willing to put 200K on your own money. As any darwin takes minimum of 4-6 months to get payout. Apply maths 1500*100=150K + 50*100*6=180K. Plus you wont get any additional funding if you copy as your darwin will have same trades.
I didn't added copy trading cost. And by the time you reach to payout there may be rule change or any thing who knows in 6 months.
Best way to scale horizontally is take one account get to payout use that money to fund another account.
  • #1,009
  • Edited 6:20am Jul 31, 2025 5:02am | Edited 6:20am
Quoting sampat
{quote} You are missing one point. You can't make millions via 100 darwins unless you are willing to put 200K on your own money. As any darwin takes minimum of 4-6 months to get payout. Apply maths 1500*100=150K + 50*100*6=180K. Plus you wont get any additional funding if you copy as your darwin will have same trades. I didn't added copy trading cost. And by the time you reach to payout there may be rule change or any thing who knows in 6 months. Best way to scale horizontally is take one account get to payout use that money to fund another account....
No.

Here is what Darwinex writes regarding multiple DARWINS

You are free to have different Darwinex Zero accounts, but only 1 subscription is possible per account.
This means that, if you have multiple strategies and would like to provide signals for creation of more than one DARWIN, you will need to open different Darwinex Zero accounts with different usernames & email addresses

Meaning

You would need to have 100 accounts with 100 subscriptions to have 100 DARWINS.

The monthly fee is 38,00 € per subscription/DARWIN
The virtual permanent allocation for a 100k is $1500

Costs for 1 month: 100*38*1 = 3.800 €
Costs for 3 months (min. payout threshold): 100*38*3 = 11.400 €
Costs for 100 x 100k permanent allocations: 100*1500 = 150.000 €

Total costs 1 month: 150000+3800 = 153.800 €
Total costs 3 months: 150000+11400 = 161.400 €

Costs to run a portfolio of 100 automated non-correlated trading systems across 100 DARWINS/accounts you have to find out yourself. You will need to have a decent server or multiple ones where the systems can run on. Maybe another few hundreds a month.

No copy trading needed since each system/account runs independently. So no additional costs here.

Now let’s say you have 100 different DARWINS/accounts running and paid 161.400 € upfront for 3 months.

Your DARWINS/accounts each generated a 0,10% profit in 30 days. So a +10% profit in sum.

Darwinex pays a 15% performance fee of your profits made quarterly (every 3 months).

Let’s say you stopped trading after 1 month with your 100 DARWINS/accounts and made a 10% profit.

Your payout would be: 10.000.000*0,10*0,15 = 150.000 €. Now you had expenses (161.400 €). So 150000-161.400 =-11.400 €. You are still not breakeven and didn’t make a profit.

Let’s say you kept on trading with your 100 DARWINS/accounts and made another 20% in your first 3 months.

Your payout would be 10.000.000*0,30*0,15 = 450.000 €. Now you had expenses (161.400 €). So 450.000-161.400 = 288.600 €. Now you made a profit.

It’s just a basic theory and the math might be flawed but it shows that if you would be allowed to run an unlimited amount of DARWINS and receive a 100k virtual permanent allocation for each one you could theoretically be very profitable with it and hence costing Darwinex a lot of money since the virtual capital came out of nowheres lands. Who are they going to charge if no real investors deposited that amount of money where they could charge a performance fee for themselves?

It would be same as with the monopoly money prop firms where you can get X amount of monopoly money if you pay for. A profitable trader would mean a loss for the company since none of these firms would ever mirror such trades to the real market to make a REAL profit from that for themselves. They keep you in a demo/b-book environment. And it makes sense. Would you copy some anonymous person‘s trades to the real market who you don’t know? A person who might get lucky/profitable for a few months (if even that) just to blow up then? Of course not. Profitable traders trading demo/monopoly money and requesting a payout mean a loss to the company offering it. This only works as long as enough people buying these packages/challenges (some multiple times over and over again) but blow up and never receive a payout.
  • #1,010
  • Jul 31, 2025 9:34am Jul 31, 2025 9:34am
Quoting Noisy
{quote} No. Here is what Darwinex writes regarding multiple DARWINS You are free to have different Darwinex Zero accounts, but only 1 subscription is possible per account. This means that, if you have multiple strategies and would like to provide signals for creation of more than one DARWIN, you will need to open different Darwinex Zero accounts with different usernames & email addresses Meaning You would need to have 100 accounts with 100 subscriptions to have 100 DARWINS. The monthly fee is 38,00 € per subscription/DARWIN The virtual permanent...
Well unless you hedge them no one can gaurantee they will make money. So you are probably looking 5 to 10 times more money to get same results.
  • #1,011
  • Jul 31, 2025 9:47am Jul 31, 2025 9:47am
Quoting sampat
{quote} Well unless you hedge them no one can gaurantee they will make money. So you are probably looking 5 to 10 times more money to get same results.
In life there are no guarantees except one.
  • #1,012
  • Edited 11:04am Jul 31, 2025 9:52am | Edited 11:04am
Quoting PayTheBid
{quote} I do not know where you got these numbers but to me they do not make sense(it could be just me). Or maybe there is an error somewhere in those numbers. You posted "If you look at his track record, you can see that over the 8 years he averages around about 1.1% a month with a Max drawdown of 17%. Very respectable track record", with all due respect 1.1% is a joke for a good trader, with 17%!!!!! drawdown.... this guy is in the hall of fame!?!?! "Very respectable track record" the 8 years yes, the return to drawdown, is a Mickey Mouse caliber....
Thanks for your post, much appreciated. I'm sure you will do well with Darwinex. I got the numbers from an old post by OutThere:

Quoting OutThere
{quote} This is Darwinex's hall of fame. https://www.darwinex.com/darwinia/hall-of-fame
The website says "Performance fees are calculated as 15% of all profits accrued on both Investors' Capital and DarwinIA Notional Allocations, on a High-Water Mark basis"

It looks pretty accurate. If you click on the link, TRO (TradingSignalMachine) is number 29 at the time of this post. Looking at his numbers again, they look pretty bad, but how is this guy in the top 30 with a Performance Fee of just under 40k Euros after 8 years? What am I missing?
(Green Diamond) Pip Impact Member (top 1%)
  • #1,013
  • Jul 31, 2025 1:03pm Jul 31, 2025 1:03pm
Quoting codemaster75
{quote} Thanks for your post, much appreciated. I'm sure you will do well with Darwinex. I got the numbers from an old post by OutThere: {quote} The website says "Performance fees are calculated as 15% of all profits accrued on both Investors' Capital and DarwinIA Notional Allocations, on a High-Water Mark basis" It looks pretty accurate. If you click on the link, TRO (TradingSignalMachine) is number 29 at the time of this post. Looking at his numbers again, they look pretty bad, but how is this guy in the top 30 with a Performance Fee of just under...
What you are missing is that his numbers are after they have gone through the risk engine. There id no way of knowing how they compare to the performance of his underlying account.. he could have made 4000% in his account during this time. Pipmaster will tell you that he could have made 20% in his underlying account. You won't get it until you open an account and trade your way and see how the risk engine processes your risk according to the particular formula that Darwinex has come up with.
  • #1,014
  • Jul 31, 2025 2:30pm Jul 31, 2025 2:30pm
Quoting OutThere
{quote} What you are missing is that his numbers are after they have gone through the risk engine. There id no way of knowing how they compare to the performance of his underlying account.. he could have made 4000% in his account during this time. Pipmaster will tell you that he could have made 20% in his underlying account. You won't get it until you open an account and trade your way and see how the risk engine processes your risk according to the particular formula that Darwinex has come up with.
Would you agree that regardless of what profit or percentage TradeSignalMachine made on his Personal Darwinex account, according to the Hall of Fame, TradeSignalMachine received only 38,644.54 Euro in his 8 year history (i.e. Payout) and nothing else from Darwinex?
(Green Diamond) Pip Impact Member (top 1%)
  • #1,015
  • Aug 1, 2025 7:42am Aug 1, 2025 7:42am
Quoting Noisy
{quote} Get a new calculator. {image} Anyhow. I doubt it’s possible to have 100k permanent allocation on 100 different DARWINS.
You wrote 0,10% per strategy

(100.000 x 0,10% = 100$ ...
100$ x 100 strategies = 10.000$ x 15% performance fee = 1.500$)

You calculate with 10%

Try again...

Kind regards.
Muni loves you all!
  • #1,016
  • Aug 1, 2025 9:31am Aug 1, 2025 9:31am
Quoting MuniFX
{quote} You wrote 0,10% per strategy (100.000 x 0,10% = 100$ ... 100$ x 100 strategies = 10.000$ x 15% performance fee = 1.500$) You calculate with 10% Try again... Kind regards.
No. Read again.

100 systems = 10% (profit)
100 x $100,000 (allocations) = $10.000.000,00 (capital)

10000000(capital)*0,10(profit)*0,15(performance fee) = $150,000 (payout).
  • #1,017
  • Edited 7:02pm Aug 1, 2025 6:34pm | Edited 7:02pm
Well let's see how much TradeSignalMachine gets paid this quarter. I'm not quite sure when the quarter started, but inception seemed to start in May so we might have to wait until November for an update is that right?

Looking at the Darwin Zero website for TRO (TradeSignalMachine), I see he has been excluded from participating in DarwinIA for having a high correlation for this month already. So, his Assets under management for this month is just the investor Capital which is $862,337.37. Is that right?

Let's round that off to $850k. Hopefully for the quarter he can maintain a consistent investor capital of around this figure and make a profit.

So, if he was to continue with his average of 1.1% a month, he would get paid the following:

3 months x 0.011 x 0.15 x $850,000 = $4,200 for the quarter.

Is that right?

Anyway, let's wait and see what the total % and average investor capital for the quarter is.

His current total performance fee according to the hall of fame is $38,644.54 Euros, so if he makes a profit, this should be updated the next quarter and then we will have a better idea of what is going on.
(Green Diamond) Pip Impact Member (top 1%)
  • #1,018
  • Aug 2, 2025 4:05am Aug 2, 2025 4:05am
Quoting Noisy
{quote} No. Read again. 100 systems = 10% (profit) 100 x $100,000 (allocations) = $10.000.000,00 (capital) 10000000(capital)*0,10(profit)*0,15(performance fee) = $150,000 (payout).
okay, let us clear things up here:

if you trade one system on each 100k allocation with 0,10% profit
and count em all together to get to your 10.000.0000 capital and 100 systems it is still 0,10% on the whole capital,
that is how I understood what you want to do, but

if you mean that you run 100 systems on one 100k allocation to achieve 10% and copy it to all other darwins
than you are right that on a 10mil allocation it is 10% on the whole capital, but that would mean that all 100 darwins are not un-correlated.

or am I still missing something?

kind regards
Muni loves you all!
  • #1,019
  • Aug 2, 2025 4:30am Aug 2, 2025 4:30am
Quoting MuniFX
{quote} okay, let us clear things up here: if you trade one system on each 100k allocation with 0,10% profit and count em all together to get to your 10.000.0000 capital and 100 systems it is still 0,10% on the whole capital, that is how I understood what you want to do, but if you mean that you run 100 systems on one 100k allocation to achieve 10% and copy it to all other darwins than you are right that on a 10mil allocation it is 10% on the whole capital, but that would mean that all 100 darwins are not un-correlated. or am I still missing something?...
Correct. 100 individual systems on 100 individual DARWINS/accounts (not copied) achieving a total profit of 10% on a capital base of 10M.

But you probably won't get 100 x 100k allocations, even if you pay for them. You probably won't even get more than one.
  • #1,020
  • Aug 2, 2025 4:51am Aug 2, 2025 4:51am
Quoting Noisy
{quote} Correct. 100 individual systems on 100 individual DARWINS/accounts (not copied) achieving a total profit of 10% on a capital base of 10M. But you probably won't get 100 x 100k allocations, even if you pay for them. You probably won't even get more than one.
i still don't get your math..

lets try it with 10 individual systems on 10 individual darwins:

1. system on 1. darwin: 100k x 0,10% profit = 100$
2. system on 2. darwin: 100k x 0,10% profit = 100$
3. system on 3. darwin: 100k x 0,10% profit = 100$
4. system on 4. darwin: 100k x 0,10% profit = 100$
5. system on 5. darwin: 100k x 0,10% profit = 100$
6. system on 6. darwin: 100k x 0,10% profit = 100$
7. system on 7. darwin: 100k x 0,10% profit = 100$
8. system on 8. darwin: 100k x 0,10% profit = 100$
9. system on 9. darwin: 100k x 0,10% profit = 100$
10. system on 10. darwin: 100k x 0,10% profit = 100$

sum of capital 1.000.000$ sum of systems 10 sum of profit 1000$profit

in your math logic you count 10systems x0,10% = 1%
1% on 1.000.000 capital = 10.000$ profit (but we only have 1000$ profit, see above)
you cannot do this..

You have to calculate your base capital/sum of allocations/whole capital with 0,10% (profit of individual strategy) not 1% not 10%(in your example with 100systems)

or am I still on the wrong track?

kind regards
Muni loves you all!
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