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If 95% of traders fail.....

  • #21
  • Aug 8, 2007 4:00pm Aug 8, 2007 4:00pm
I need to get this thread focused again. The point is not that "trained traders" survive, it's that crooked brokers destroy good traders. A broker simply won't tolerate somebody beating the markets consistently.

I am not talking about stupid news trading either. That is a cheap shot. I'm talking about guys that don't trade the news, and still make big bucks.

Quoting semar
i'll make out of this another analogy: if 100 people tried ti swim 10 miles acros a sea, with no turning back, only those who trained will make it on the other cost.

Leaving this behind, i think the big problem is in the "head" of the trader, not the broker.

Ps. i saw here, on ff, a weekly statistic of positions on eur/usd from a retail broker. 90% of traders were long and that week eur/usd went down, all week long. so, is this the broker's fault?
  • #22
  • Aug 8, 2007 4:03pm Aug 8, 2007 4:03pm
Quoting tdion
I need to get this thread focused again. The point is not that "trained traders" survive, it's that crooked brokers destroy good traders. A broker simply won't tolerate somebody beating the markets consistently.

I am not talking about stupid news trading either. That is a cheap shot. I'm talking about guys that don't trade the news, and still make big bucks.
then obviously that isn't a great trader, if he sticks around on a broker that is "screwing him/her". You recognize the situation and move on to a better broker.

Saying brokers destroy good traders is ludacris. Can a broker temporarily affect a trader? sure. But if the trader isn't smart enough to wise up and move on. Then that is on them.
  • #23
  • Aug 8, 2007 6:22pm Aug 8, 2007 6:22pm
Quoting Micro-MiniMe
Is there any other kind?
Maybe the question should be:
Why do so many brokers get rich?
There is no need to be greedy in order to get rich but you have to be real on your business that is : do not lie saying you can provide fixed spread even on news and that you provide no slippage order etc etc etc...

With spread and the number of order passed everyday you can definitly make money out of your customers.

Just make a count : let say a steady 10000 customers making 2 orders a day (that is 4 time the spread on average 3 pips) on 1 lot

=> 120000$/day
=>12000$/day with .1 lots...

Isn't it a fair deal ?
  • #24
  • Aug 8, 2007 8:07pm Aug 8, 2007 8:07pm
Quoting melpheos
Just make a count : let say a steady 10000 customers making 2 orders a day (that is 4 time the spread on average 3 pips) on 1 lot

=> 120000$/day
=>12000$/day with .1 lots...

Isn't it a fair deal ?
You're absolutely right. I'm being sarcastic.

Another question I have about the Forex market:
Why does the money a Broker is fined by the CFTC go to the CFTC? Shouldn't it go to the people who were screwed out of it by the broker? Where's the justice there?
  • #25
  • Aug 8, 2007 8:11pm Aug 8, 2007 8:11pm
Quoting Micro-MiniMe
You're absolutely right. I'm being sarcastic.

Another question I have about the Forex market:
Why does the money a Broker is fined by the CFTC go to the CFTC? Shouldn't it go to the people who were screwed out of it by the broker? Where's the justice there?
you are aboslutely right... Fines should be distributed evenly between the clients rather than being cashed in by the CFTC...
  • #26
  • Aug 8, 2007 9:11pm Aug 8, 2007 9:11pm
In any activity, sport, business, hobby whatever - when someone looks outside themselves for reason why things are not working their way - they are looking in the wrong place.

Adjust your trading or adjust who you trade with.
  • #27
  • Aug 8, 2007 9:12pm Aug 8, 2007 9:12pm
Quoting Micro-MiniMe
You're absolutely right. I'm being sarcastic.

Another question I have about the Forex market:
Why does the money a Broker is fined by the CFTC go to the CFTC? Shouldn't it go to the people who were screwed out of it by the broker? Where's the justice there?
Hey MM,

I know the fines and Judgements by the NFA are distributed, not sure about CFTC, I get a check from the NFA about every 2 years from a broker which was closed back in 94-96 time frame for FRAUD. I traded with this firm back in about 1991 when I was REALLY STUPID....I fell for the Hype. Traded Options ( coffee )
Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
  • #28
  • Edited 9:47pm Aug 8, 2007 9:33pm | Edited 9:47pm
Quoting FxJarhead
Hey MM,

I know the fines and Judgements by the NFA are distributed, not sure about CFTC, I get a check from the NFA about every 2 years from a broker which was closed back in 94-96 time frame for FRAUD. I traded with this firm back in about 1991 when I was REALLY STUPID....I fell for the Hype. Traded Options ( coffee )
I could be wrong, but an FX broker I still have cash deposited with was fined by CFTC last year for several things like failure to supervise employees activities on the job and missleading advertisment.

Still haven't heard anything about a settlement.??? I'll never trade with them again even if they get good software someday.

I hope I'm wrong and if so, my appoligies to the CFTC.
  • #29
  • Aug 8, 2007 9:33pm Aug 8, 2007 9:33pm
Quoting semar
1) i'll make out of this another analogy: if 100 people tried ti swim 10 miles acros a sea, with no turning back, only those who trained will make it on the other cost.

2) Leaving this behind, i think the big problem is in the "head" of the trader, not the broker.

3) Ps. i saw here, on ff, a weekly statistic of positions on eur/usd from a retail broker. 90% of traders were long and that week eur/usd went down, all week long. so, is this the broker's fault?
Her's the answer:
1.Not necessarily. Even experienced and well trained traders lose money. Remember those top traders at well known banks who lost billions.
2.Both are potential problems. Trader not being focused. Broker trading against you is a big hurdle that we all have to overcome.
3.Banks/Brokers/Liquidity providers act together. The answer is in your question: Seeing 90% of traders long, these parties make their money by pushing the market the other way. One broker cant do it on his own but they have powerful allies (big banks) who also earn from hitting traders' stops. Do you really think that they would let the market go up in your example and hand out big payouts to traders? Not at all !!!

I know its not easy to see for the average trader. And that's because the manipulation is very subtle, sophisticated and well organised. That's why they collect from 95% of traders and pay out to a minority 5%.
Good business isnt it?
  • #30
  • Aug 8, 2007 9:57pm Aug 8, 2007 9:57pm
Quoting PipStar
Her's the answer:
1.Not necessarily. Even experienced and well trained traders lose money. Remember those top traders at well known banks who lost billions.
2.Both are potential problems. Trader not being focused. Broker trading against you is a big hurdle that we all have to overcome.
3.Banks/Brokers/Liquidity providers act together. The answer is in your question: Seeing 90% of traders long, these parties make their money by pushing the market the other way. One broker cant do it on his own but they have powerful allies (big banks) who also earn from hitting traders' stops. Do you really think that they would let the market go up in your example and hand out big payouts to traders? Not at all !!!

I know its not easy to see for the average trader. And that's because the manipulation is very subtle, sophisticated and well organised. That's why they collect from 95% of traders and pay out to a minority 5%.
Good business isnt it?
well they been paying me pretty good i hope they don't come after me, forex is how i make my living.
If I Go Broke Trying Then I Will die happy.
  • #31
  • Aug 8, 2007 10:28pm Aug 8, 2007 10:28pm
Quoting PipStar
Her's the answer:
1.Not necessarily. Even experienced and well trained traders lose money. Remember those top traders at well known banks who lost billions.
2.Both are potential problems. Trader not being focused. Broker trading against you is a big hurdle that we all have to overcome.
3.Banks/Brokers/Liquidity providers act together. The answer is in your question: Seeing 90% of traders long, these parties make their money by pushing the market the other way. One broker cant do it on his own but they have powerful allies (big banks) who also earn from hitting traders' stops. Do you really think that they would let the market go up in your example and hand out big payouts to traders? Not at all !!!

I know its not easy to see for the average trader. And that's because the manipulation is very subtle, sophisticated and well organised. That's why they collect from 95% of traders and pay out to a minority 5%.
Good business isnt it?
Very well put PipStar.
FF has several articles by Editor and other people who've had direct contact with the 'machinery' that moves the FX market. I've done well at times by pretending that I'm on the other side looking for the sheep and their stops. The wolves almost always strike when you least suspect. hint hint volume, liquidity OWOOO! WO WO WO!
  • #32
  • Aug 9, 2007 12:01am Aug 9, 2007 12:01am
Quoting PipStar
Her's the answer:
1.Not necessarily. Even experienced and well trained traders lose money. Remember those top traders at well known banks who lost billions.
2.Both are potential problems. Trader not being focused. Broker trading against you is a big hurdle that we all have to overcome.
3.Banks/Brokers/Liquidity providers act together. The answer is in your question: Seeing 90% of traders long, these parties make their money by pushing the market the other way. One broker cant do it on his own but they have powerful allies (big banks) who also earn from hitting traders' stops. Do you really think that they would let the market go up in your example and hand out big payouts to traders? Not at all !!!
you messed up all my thoughts. i was speeaking relatively to the broker problems. it's my fault that i didn't explain myself better
"Abandon all hope, you who enter here" La Divina Commedia, Dante Alighieri
  • #33
  • Aug 9, 2007 8:20am Aug 9, 2007 8:20am
Quoting Moe
well they been paying me pretty good i hope they don't come after me, forex is how i make my living.
Yes. You can make a living off trading forex. Very few can make it but those who do it understand how the market works. And like Merlin keep saying over and over 'It's a dirty game'. I agree with him. But it can be profitable.
Whoever coined this phrase:
'Run with the Bulls and Hunt with the Bears'
certainly had a good idea.
  • #34
  • Aug 17, 2007 7:21pm Aug 17, 2007 7:21pm
Quoting tdion
If 95% of traders bankrupt their account in a year, why are brokers doing the following:

Why do they stop hunt?
Why do they offer slow execution?
Why is the spread high and the rollover high?

Won't the trader simply self destruct without the extemperaneous forces it seems ALL BROKERS SUBJECT US TO. It's hard enough to make profit without their manipulation.

to increase that percentage to 99% (its a business for them!)
  • #35
  • Aug 17, 2007 8:18pm Aug 17, 2007 8:18pm
Quoting tdion
Well Scott, my point was that they would make plenty of money without their manipulation. In fact, good service would entice more $$$ out of the pockets of traders, because they wouldn't feel cheated.
That like asking Nike why do they have their shoes made in china. They could have them made in USA and make plenty of money as well.
  • #36
  • Aug 17, 2007 9:21pm Aug 17, 2007 9:21pm
Yeah well my point is..... if traders are going to lose anyway, why enrage them with "cheating" and "little games."

Wouldn't you rather have a trader lose his money based on his own faults and keep using your service, rather than have him leave you because you f*cked with his trades?

He's just going to close his account and find better service, whether he is profitable or not.
  • #37
  • Aug 18, 2007 5:35am Aug 18, 2007 5:35am
Quoting tdion
Yeah well my point is..... if traders are going to lose anyway, why enrage them with "cheating" and "little games."
The answer is simple : Greed.
One cant help but feel sometimes that a forex broker's mission is to increase the percentage of losers from 95% to as close to 100% as possible. Now, I know that sounds like an extreme. But there is also a case of simple maths: The 5% who win could well be taking away from brokers a massive amount of money. Therefore by creating an uneven playing field the broker increases the odds well in his favour.
  • #38
  • Sep 2, 2007 9:45am Sep 2, 2007 9:45am
Quoting Dopey
Rofl...just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
Exactly, its not paranoia if they are really out to get you! LOL
  • #39
  • Last Post: Apr 7, 2012 2:41am Apr 7, 2012 2:41am
Give a professional tennis player a wooden racket and they'll still beat a non-professional player 6-0.

Same with brokers. The superior trader will still make money with inferior tools. Don't blame the broker, work on your trading skills and don't blame the tools.
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